Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[TurtleHare]

I wish we could agree on what Lamm, Tigger, TurtleHare, I and others are saying: Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does the Saving. Because Christianity is all founded on that, that is the point, the keystone, on which Christianity stands or falls. If God only ENABLES or rewards, is God is only the Possibility-Maker or Doorman, if God simply rewards self..... the Christianity crashes to the ground and we have aligned ourselves with the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism. But this IS the point that has angered and offended some... for 27 pages, rebuffs and ridicule and rejection of the Gospel.

I log in and see 28 pages and I haven't a clue where I last left off but to tell ya the truth I cannot believe that so many argue against salvation by grace on a Christian site and I even go so far as to say I'm dumbfounded by this event. I don't have time to read through this much stuff but I believe sufficient evidence has been given to prove salvation by grace which means insufficient evidence to point otherwise well, since, there ain't any.

Acts 15:9-11 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

 

[Rens]

Okay we all agree. It's a mystery.
[sarcasm]
I'm starting to get why Snerf flipped out.

 

[psalms 91]

Okay we all agree. It's a mystery.
[sarcasm]
I'm starting to get why Snerf flipped out.

Yup, I can understand it as erll

 

[Lamb]

I've asked questions in the thread that the other side has not answered and I haven't flipped out about it. The most recent was to Rens. Which came first, your faith or your decision?

 

[Rens]

I've asked questions in the thread that the other side has not answered and I haven't flipped out about it. The most recent was to Rens. Which came first, your faith or your decision?

His faith

Faith comes by hearing of the Word of God, it's a gift, not from yourself.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[psalms 91]

His faith

Faith comes by hearing of the Word of God, it's a gift, not from yourself.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I believe this passage shows that a decision was necessary, yes the faith is a gift, the forgiveness is a gift as well but it does require an action on our part, the acceptance of this gift and to confess with with our mouths that jesus is Lord and to believe in our hearts and ask for forgiveness and repent.

 

[Lamb]

I believe this passage shows that a decision was necessary, yes the faith is a gift, the forgiveness is a gift as well but it does require an action on our part, the acceptance of this gift and to confess with with our mouths that jesus is Lord and to believe in our hearts and ask for forgiveness and repent.

No, it does not say that at all. Faith comes before the response but it clearly states that we're saved by faith. The response is a result that shows the fruit of your faith.

If your relative leaves you a boat in his will it's yours. The will does not state the condition that you have to get in it before it becomes yours. It's already yours because of the will. This is the same as the will and testament of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't get to decide if we want to BE in that will, because we already are. We can enjoy the benefits of the will, but saying we have those benefits does not make the will void and null. It doesn't even make the gift of the boat more ours by "accepting" it. It's already ours. We can choose to opt out of the will.

If a parent goes to adopt a baby, that infant doesn't choose the parents. As baby Christians new in the faith, neither do they get to choose the Father. He has chosen. We can grow up and reject Him later and leave Him as some children do when they reject their parents and say they want no part in them.

Both the will and adoption are examples from Holy Scripture. There is a reason they're put in scripture for us to see how salvation is God's work and not our decision John 15:16 You did not choose me but I chose you.

We are given the gift of faith (that's not decision on our part to be given it) and we have salvation because faith clings to the Savior and forgiveness of sins.

Any action after reception of the gift does not make the gift more ours. Just like receiving a gift in a will does not mean that it's not ours if we don't decide to go pick it up. Legally, it's ours. There is always that legal terminology used in scripture too! Legally we are in the will!! That's what the good news is. Legally, our sins have been forgiven and our debt is cleared. We can't decide to make that happen or even to believe it. That's why we're given faith in order to believe it and trust in it.

 

[Rens]

nm

 

[atpollard]

Is God mandated to answer every "question" of anyone? Or do questions serve as the norma normans for theology? How can God be three yet one? How can Jesus be 100% human and 100% man? Ah.... do my typing the questions prove or disprove anything whatsoever?

But I think the problem is not so much people having enormous pride and considering their own puny, fallen, limited brains as above God's written Word and revelation..... Even greater than such absurd egoism and subjecting of God to self, the greater problem is that often the "answers" self gives to the "questions" of self are regarded as normative in spite of God's words needing to be therefore deleted.

Until the 16th Century, Christian theology was called "Christian MYSTERIES." Until the Enlightenment and it's claim that the brain of self is above all (including God), when the theories of man "trumped" the revelation of God, people accepted that we have MYSTERIES - truths that simply are outside out questions, our understanding. Indeed, people once believed that Scripture was correct to state that we are STEWARDS of the MYSTERIES of God - not that it is our job to correct Scripture by our asking ourselves questions and then insisting that self is smarter than God and thus can answer it (making God agree with self).

God isn't mocking Arminians (Methodists, Evangelicals, some Baptists, Church of God) ... Lutherans are.
If you are going to reject their answer, it does not seem unreasonable to ask of you have an answer in return.
John Wesley rejected the traditions of men and studied the scripture of God to seek a clue whether God had provided an answer that the traditions of men had rejected. Right or wrong, he came up with a Biblical answer that he believed honored God. It makes my heart ache to hear someone accuse a Christian who believes the Scripture as John Wesley did of "rejecting Jesus as the Savior".

The lack of love in such an accusation carries no mystery to anyone who hears it.

Friend, your question might be valid. Perhaps. But it doesn't change the foundational truth of Christianity: Jesus is the Savior, it's Jesus who saves us. A puny, fallen, sinful, uber-limited, non-divine brain MIGHT theorize that God gets off seeing some eternally burn in hell or a host of other creations of a fallen, limited, sinful, puny, non-divine human brain. But that doesn't make it true.... and doesn't make the foundational point of Christianity wrong.

My now sainted grandfather used to say that confessing "I don't know" is often the wisest thing one can say. But it takes a humility that modern "Enlightened" man - so in love with human brains - finds hard to do.

Soli Deo Gloria

- Josiah

It may come as a surprise, but I agree that our opinion on the matter will not change God's reality. The core point is that Jesus is the Savior and ...

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Note that this promise works for Catholics and Lutherans and Calvinists and Arminians and Baptists ... all who believe and profess "Jesus is Lord".

However, I fear that you are not seeing what is really at stake with that question. "Why isn't everyone saved?" is not a theoretical question intended to trick Calvinists or score points in a debate. It is the cry of a soul desperate to know the truth and an attack on the innate 'goodness' of God. It is a question seeking to know whether God can really be trusted.

You will probably respond with "Of course God can be trusted." If so, then I envy you the grace to have been born never needing to ask that question. An increasing number of people are being born into realities that demand an answer to that question. Not because God owes us an answer, but because trust is impossible without an answer. When 'father' is another word for monster, talk of a Heavenly Father is terrifying nonsense. The accusation that God might delight in saving some and delight in damning most makes God the sort of capricious monster that many are too familiar with ... and you want people to trust Him?

So you see, we may have no right to ask. We may be incapable of giving a definitive answer. Yet we must ask the question and try to answer if we are to reach the lost with the Truth. To refuse to even acknowledge the question is to place a stumbling block in the path of many.

There is no Glory for God in that.

 

[Lamb]

God isn't mocking Arminians (Methodists, Evangelicals, some Baptists, Church of God) ... Lutherans are.
If you are going to reject their answer, it does not seem unreasonable to ask of you have an answer in return.
John Wesley rejected the traditions of men and studied the scripture of God to seek a clue whether God had provided an answer that the traditions of men had rejected. Right or wrong, he came up with a Biblical answer that he believed honored God. It makes my heart ache to hear someone accuse a Christian who believes the Scripture as John Wesley did of "rejecting Jesus as the Savior".

The lack of love in such an accusation carries no mystery to anyone who hears it.


It may come as a surprise, but I agree that our opinion on the matter will not change God's reality. The core point is that Jesus is the Savior and ...

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Note that this promise works for Catholics and Lutherans and Calvinists and Arminians and Baptists ... all who believe and profess "Jesus is Lord".

However, I fear that you are not seeing what is really at stake with that question. "Why isn't everyone saved?" is not a theoretical question intended to trick Calvinists or score points in a debate. It is the cry of a soul desperate to know the truth and an attack on the innate 'goodness' of God. It is a question seeking to know whether God can really be trusted.

You will probably respond with "Of course God can be trusted." If so, then I envy you the grace to have been born never needing to ask that question. An increasing number of people are being born into realities that demand an answer to that question. Not because God owes us an answer, but because trust is impossible without an answer. When 'father' is another word for monster, talk of a Heavenly Father is terrifying nonsense. The accusation that God might delight in saving some and delight in damning most makes God the sort of capricious monster that many are too familiar with ... and you want people to trust Him?

So you see, we may have no right to ask. We may be incapable of giving a definitive answer. Yet we must ask the question and try to answer if we are to reach the lost with the Truth. To refuse to even acknowledge the question is to place a stumbling block in the path of many.

There is no Glory for God in that.

As much as some like to believe it, Romans 10:9 is not a salvation formula but instead look at this...WHAT is being believed? In Whom/what are you confessing? Romans 10:9 isn't saving you because of you doing something, it's an actual confession of faith. We cannot confess Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit first giving us faith to do so. And we're saved by grace through faith and this, not of ourselves, so no one can boast. The verse is concentrating on Jesus if you really look at what's going on in Romans. It's always about Jesus.

 

[Josiah]

God isn't mocking Arminians (Methodists, Evangelicals, some Baptists, Church of God) ... Lutherans are.

Baloney.

If you are going to reject their answer, it does not seem unreasonable to ask of you have an answer in return.

No, it's not reasonable. If one were to declare, quite dogmatically, "There are 6 billion purple people eaters on Mars!" and I reject that due to lack of confirmation, it would be silly to insist I must tell you exactly how many there ARE on Mars. Your point is absurd.


Lamm, Tigger, TurtleHare, myself and others are affirming that Jesus is the Savior, it's Jesus who saves. Our justification (narrow), our coming to spiritual life is a MIRACLE of JESUS, a MIRACLE of GRACE. That's it, that's all. And we are holding that like ALL Jesus' miracles, this need not be "explained" in some cognative, didactic way.... but just because I can't tell you all the science behind Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, just because I may not be able to answer all the questions that folks seem able to ask about the rising of Lazarus from the dead, does not mean ergo Jesus didn't do it but that Lazarus did it (in whole or in part) but rather Jesus MUST not be the miracle-worker but rather an Enabler or Possiblity-Maker or Doorman (anything other than Miracle Worker).

Frankly, my Calvinist friend, I'm kind of surprised you would be in such disagreement with us on this...... but so be it; you are in good company here at CH, there have been 30 PAGES of posts denouncing, condemning and repudiating our position. That kind of surprises me, too.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

Baloney. No Lutheran is mocking anyone.






No, it's not reasonable. If one were to declare, quite dogmatically, "There are 6 billion purple people eaters on Mars!" and I reject that due to lack of confirmation, it would be silly to insist I must tell you exactly how many there ARE on Mars. Your point is absurd.


Lamm, Tigger, TurtleHare, myself and others are affirming that Jesus is the Savior, it's Jesus who saves. Our justification (narrow), our coming to spiritual life is a MIRACLE of JESUS, a MIRACLE of GRACE. That's it, that's all. And we are holding that like ALL Jesus' miracles, this can't be "explained" in some cognative, didactic way.... but just because I can't tell you all the science behind Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, just because I may not be able to answer the questions that folks seem able to ask about this process, does not mean ergo He didn't do it but that Lazarus did it (in whole or in part). Frankly, my Calvinist friend, I'm kind of surprised you would be in such disagreement with us on this...... but so be it; you are in good company here at CH, there have been 29 PAGES of posts denouncing, condemning and repudiating our position. That kind of surprises me, too.



Soli DEO Gloria



- Josiah

LOL I couldn't even watch that movie. I'm not gonna post a movie here to mock your Lutheran belief.
Hey your Lutheran belief is just like Hinduism cause Hindus dont make a decision for Christ, but dont take it personal. It's meant really sweet.
I don't even mean such nonsense and I wonder if you can even see what you're saying yourself.

 

[Rens]

Christians fighting over if you're saved when God gives you faith or one second later. Who freakin cares? As long as people get saved. The reason some don't may be not because its a mystery or theyre so proud or not chosen but it's the believers.

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I saw people on other forums who said atheist forums were more friendly. They had never seen such bickering as among believers, so they left. Yet an atheist on cf got saved cause the christians in his neighbourhood had such love and unity.

 

[Lamb]

LOL I couldn't even watch that movie. I'm not gonna post a movie here to mock your Lutheran belief.
Hey your Lutheran belief is just like Hinduism cause Hindus dont make a decision for Christ, but dont take it personal. It's meant really sweet.
I don't even mean such nonsense and I wonder if you can even see what you're saying yourself.

If you're referring to the initial post of the thread, it's not mocking. It's correction using scripture on a popular thought that man's decision can save. There was tons of scripture spoken in the video. If you did not choose to watch it then you should have mentioned that early on in the thread.

 

[Lamb]

Christians fighting over if you're saved when God gives you faith or one second later. Who freakin cares? As long as people get saved. The reason some don't may be not because its a mystery or theyre so proud or not chosen but it's the believers.

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I saw people on other forums who said atheist forums were more friendly. They had never seen such bickering as among believers, so they left. Yet an atheist on cf got saved cause the christians in his neighbourhood had such love and unity.

Sound doctrine means nothing to you then when you ask Who Cares? It means a lot to God. Even enough that's written to Timothy in the OT to keep sound doctrine.

Here is a huge reason why it matters over one second over another...

1) Who is getting the credit for your salvation? If you are saying that you are doing your part in salvation then you're taking away from God.
2) What is your Christian witness to nonbelievers? They hear you say you have a role in your salvation and guess what? It's taking away from God and what He has done to redeem you. It removes the cross. It removes forgiveness. The Gospel message has been reduced to man saving himself. Who needs a Savior then if man just had to choose to conspire with God? That's the message you send out. The focus is no longer on God.

 

[atpollard]

If you're referring to the initial post of the thread, it's not mocking. It's correction using scripture on a popular thought that man's decision can save. There was tons of scripture spoken in the video.

I watched the whole video. I have actually even seen it before. It is not really one of the best works of Lutheran Satire. I prefer St Patrick explains the Trinity. However, it is satire and that makes it mocking by definition. Here it is from Mirriam-Webster:

Definition of satire
1: a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2: trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

So the video was intended to mock Arminianism. That is its purpose. Don't get me wrong, it was pretty funny (although only mediocre animation) but it was very much a work of mockery and a poor way to begin any conversation except the one which you got. If one opens with mockery, expect an unfriendly response. To claim to have no comprehension why anyone would take offense at being mocked ... strains credibility. It elicited the reaction it deserved and was created to elicit.

There is an anti-Baptist video by Lutheran Satire that is just as insulting to a different set of beliefs. Perhaps you could start another 'friendly' topic with it ... just to break the ice.

 

[Josiah]

Christians fighting over if you're saved when God gives you faith or one second later. Who freakin cares?

I haven't seen anyone (here or anywhere) defending that we are saved "one second after receiving faith."

There IS quite a debate over whether Jesus does the saving or whether we save ourselves (the later MAY assign Jesus some other role such as Enabler, Possibility Maker, etc however).

saw people on other forums who said atheist forums were more friendly. They had never seen such bickering as among believers, so they left. Yet an atheist on cf got saved cause the christians in his neighbourhood had such love and unity.

From my perspective, I'm friends with virtually all in this discussion and I love them all. I don't know if it's mutual but I have no reason to believe otherwise. We're discussing the central point of Christianity: Jesus as the Savior/Jesus as the one who saves us. Since IMO it IS the central, foundational point of Christianity, I can't think of a better topic for Christians to discuss.

 

[Lamb]

I watched the whole video. I have actually even seen it before. It is not really one of the best works of Lutheran Satire. I prefer St Patrick explains the Trinity. However, it is satire and that makes it mocking by definition. Here it is from Mirriam-Webster:

Definition of satire
1: a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2: trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly

So the video was intended to mock Arminianism. That is its purpose. Don't get me wrong, it was pretty funny (although only mediocre animation) but it was very much a work of mockery and a poor way to begin any conversation except the one which you got. If one opens with mockery, expect an unfriendly response. To claim to have no comprehension why anyone would take offense at being mocked ... strains credibility. It elicited the reaction it deserved and was created to elicit.

There is an anti-Baptist video by Lutheran Satire that is just as insulting to a different set of beliefs. Perhaps you could start another 'friendly' topic with it ... just to break the ice.

Did we watch the same video by Pastor Jonathan Fisk of Worldview Everylasting? He was answering a question sent in by a viewer on the topic. That's what he does in his videos. He answers questions people have. Which video did you watch?

 

[atpollard]

Did we watch the same video by Pastor Jonathan Fisk of Worldview Everylasting? He was answering a question sent in by a viewer on the topic. That's what he does in his videos. He answers questions people have. Which video did you watch?

I apologize and stand corrected. I was thinking of the video with the animation and the apple.

I know you hold Pastor Fisk in high esteem, so to his video, I will simply say "no comment" and strive to live at peace.

That video I did watch all the way through only once.
(I do not believe that he will sway many people who did not already agree with him.)

 

[Lamb]

I apologize and stand corrected. I was thinking of the video with the animation and the apple.

I know you hold Pastor Fisk in high esteem, so to his video, I will simply say "no comment" and strive to live at peace.

That video I did watch all the way through only once.
(I do not believe that he will sway many people who did not already agree with him.)

That makes more sense that it was a different video You just saved me the embarrassment of calling out Pastor Fisk on Facebook to come here and justify himself LOL