Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Josiah]

They can't. They can't choose.

Correct. The DEAD can't do anything. Those who are spiritually DEAD can't do anything spiritual. They cannot choose anything. They cannot repent of anything (they can FEEL remorse, just as dogs can, but not repent). They cannot chose God or chose to believe. The DEAD can't do anything because.... well..... they are DEAD.

Thus the Scriptures:

"NO ONE is capable of even saying 'Jesus is Lord'..."
"You did not choose me but I chose you."
"The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus"
"For by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

We don't cause ourselves to come to physical life (it's a divine miracle of grace) and we don't cause ourselves to come to spiritual life. Those not alive, those dead cannot cause self to come to life.

It's a mystery why.

Wow. And here I thought only Lutherans (and well Eastern Orthodox) still embraced mystery. :stars:


But no, it's not mystery why the dead can't give themselves life. I think it's just obvious. But yes, it IS mystery how Jesus effects all this, especially in the case of a given individual. We know that Jesus IS the Savior.... that Jesus is the one who saves.... that 100% of the credit and 100% of the work in this is Jesus'..... we know this is a MIRACLE OF GRACE (God's undeserved, unmerited, unconditional love, favor, blessing and gift): a MIRACLE of Jesus. Friend, ALL His miracles are mysteries - and so is this one. We don't know HOW Jesus saves in a general sense (there are several "Atonement Theories"), and we certainly don't know how Jesus saves us in the specific case of an individual. There's a reason that ALL theology until the late 16th Century was called "MYSTERIES" referred to as "the Christian MYSTERIES." A reason why Scripture commands us to be "caretakers of the MYSTERIES of God" not correctors of God by imposing our brains and theories upon God making a lot of what God said wrong. There is MYSTERY here (Lutherans and Orthodox believe.... Catholics use to centuries ago). Just as we DON'T even try to tell God all the realities of the Trinity or the Two Natures (we just accept what Scripture says - while denying nothing and "explaining" nothing) so it is with all the Mysteries of God to which God commands us to be CARETAKERS.



[MENTION=181]Rens[/MENTION]
@Psalm 91;
[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]


Here's the point: This is fully true and CANNOT in the least be denied: Jesus is the Savior. Period. It's JESUS that saves, JESUS that does the Saving. Period. Not me, Not you. Not the Pope or the LDS. Not a bit. Not at all. Not now. Not ever. Denying that in the least destroys the Gospel and Cbristianity comes crashing down to the ground. Denying that means that Jesus is NOT the Savior. He may be instead (as several posts here have indicated) the Enabler (but self the Savior) or the Possibility-Maker (but self the Savior), the Doorman (but self the Savior) but if He's not the one who does the saving then He's not the Savior. And Christianity has just been destroyed and we've actually aliened ourselves with the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism (indeed, Rens, SOME of the posts in this thread could have been posted - in the verbatim, identical words - by a Jew or Muslim or Hindu, as shocking as I've found that to be). Now.... can I explain all the dynamics of HOW Jesus performs His miracle of life, His miracle of faith, His miracle of salvation? Can I give a divine "answer" to any and all questions that some people might possibility ask? NO. Not with the MYSTERY of salvation or the MYSTERY of the Trinity or the MYSTERY of the Two Natures or the MYSTERY of Inspiration or any of the Mysteries of God. NOR AM I ASKED TO. God commands us to be CARETAKERS of the Mysteries of God, not destroyers. Just because I can't explained everything or give a divine answer to all questions folks might have about the Trinity doesn't make the Trinity false...... Again, what Lamm and Tigger and Turtlehare and myself are saying (which has SO angered SO many here and caused TWENTY-SIX pages of ridicule and condemnation of us) is that Jesus is the Savior; Jesus saves. It's totally HIS miracle of grace. I see 26 pages of some VERY upset over that position and attempts to undermine it, lifting up self and lowering Christ, imposing theories that actually delete Jesus as the SAVIOR and instead make Him the Enabler or Possibility-Maker or Doorman or even nothing at all. IMO, this is important. Christianity stands or falls on this: Jesus is the Savior, it's Jesus who saves us. "If salvation comes by our works, then Jesus died in vain."



See post # 222



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

Then you are saying all are saved cant have it both ways

I've never said all are saved.

Rejection of the faith given damns man because he rejects the Savior and the forgiveness of sins. Scripture backs that up. Not all are saved. I know I've posted this a few times in response to you in either this thread or other threads.

 

[psalms 91]

I've never said all are saved.

Rejection of the faith given damns man because he rejects the Savior and the forgiveness of sins. Scripture backs that up. Not all are saved. I know I've posted this a few times in response to you in either this thread or other threads.

If man can reject then man can also accept

 

[Lamb]

If man can reject then man can also accept

Unbelievers cannot accept anything. And when the Holy Spirit gives faith, that man is given the free gift of salvation because faith grasps onto the Savior and forgiveness of sins. Any "accepting" of that faith...is not accepting it in order to have it. It's already been placed in man by the Holy Spirit. Man realizes and acknowledges but that's not the cause of salvation.

 

[Rens]

Paul’s answer in Romans 9 stresses divine sovereignty: “Many Israelites do not believe because God has not chosen them.” The answer of Romans 10 stresses man’s responsibility: “Those Israelites who do not believe fail to believe because they have rejected God.”

https://bible.org/seriespage/25-without-excuse-romans-1014-21

 

[Lamb]

Paul’s answer in Romans 9 stresses divine sovereignty: “Many Israelites do not believe because God has not chosen them.” The answer of Romans 10 stresses man’s responsibility: “Those Israelites who do not believe fail to believe because they have rejected God.”

https://bible.org/seriespage/25-without-excuse-romans-1014-21

While reading that did you notice that Romans 9 pointed out "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

 

[Josiah]

If man can reject then man can also accept

See posts 222 and 261


Friend, your comment is illogical. The DEAD can't chose to swim a mile because they are DEAD; their INACTIVITY, their NOT signing up for the swim, is simply a function of their being DEAD. It's absurd to argue that if they can't sign up therefore they can.

Let's say I was conceived on April 23, 1987. I was GIVEN life, by a divine miracle. BEFORE that, I could not chose life - all I could do is not chose it because being dead, there is nothing I can do.

Now, Bill, I agree that the point, "the dead CHOSE death" is a bit confusing... to say "all they can do is chose death" is a bit confusing (although the point very correct). The Bible itself speaks this way but I agree it can be confusing. Some present this biblical reality as the "default" position (we computer users understand that concept, that reality), the "default" is that we don't chose God, we don't have faith, we aren't saved, we are DEAD, deader than a doorknob, stinky dead (see John 11:38-44) What the DEAD need is a SAVIOR. The good news of Chrsitianity.... the foundational point of Christianity, the point on which Christianity stands or falls: God supplied Him..... His name is Jesus..... Jesus IS THE (one, only, all-sufficient) Savior.... Jesus saves...... Jesus is the one who saves folks..... it's JESUS' miracle.



- Josiah




.

 

[Rens]

See posts 222 and 261


Friend, your comment is illogical. The DEAD can't chose to swim a mile because they are DEAD; their INACTIVITY, their NOT signing up for the swim, is simply a function of their being DEAD. It's absurd to argue that if they can't sign up therefore they can.

Let's say I was conceived on April 23, 1987. I was GIVEN life, by a divine miracle. BEFORE that, I could not chose life - all I could do is not chose it because being dead, there is nothing I can do.

Now, Bill, I agree that the point, "the dead CHOSE death" is a bit confusing... to say "all they can do is chose death" is a bit confusing (although the point very correct). The Bible itself speaks this way but I agree it can be confusing. Some present this biblical reality as the "default" position (we computer users understand that concept, that reality), the "default" is that we don't chose God, we don't have faith, we aren't saved, we are DEAD, deader than a doorknob, stinky dead (see John 11:38-44) What the DEAD need is a SAVIOR. The good news of Chrsitianity.... the foundational point of Christianity, the point on which Christianity stands or falls: God supplied Him..... His name is Jesus..... Jesus IS THE (one, only, all-sufficient) Savior.... Jesus saves...... Jesus is the one who saves folks..... it's JESUS' miracle.



- Josiah




.

If they can't do nothing about it God can't blame em.

 

[Josiah]

If they can't do nothing about it God can't blame em.

I didn't. But yes, they "reap" the consequences of their situation. I don't "blame" the unborn for not being born.... but I do praise God for the born.


See posts 222 and 261.



- Josiah

 

[Rens]

I didn't. But yes, they "reap" the consequences of their situation. I don't "blame" the unborn for not being born.... but I do praise God for the born.


See posts 222 and 261.



- Josiah

God blames the ones that don't get born again.

 

[Rens]

While reading that did you notice that Romans 9 pointed out "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Yes and did you notice 2 supposed opposites can be both true in the Bible? Romans 10 says the supposed opposite of Romans 9.

 

[Lamb]

Yes and did you notice 2 supposed opposites can be both true in the Bible? Romans 10 says the supposed opposite of Romans 9.

Law and Gospel will do that. That's why it's good to know how to distinguish between what is Law and what is Gospel. Otherwise people will mingle them and turn Law into the Gospel. But the Gospel should never cause fear or be a burden. The Law does that. The Gospel will never tell us we are our own Savior. It points to God as our Savior.

 

[Rens]

Law and Gospel will do that. That's why it's good to know how to distinguish between what is Law and what is Gospel. Otherwise people will mingle them and turn Law into the Gospel. But the Gospel should never cause fear or be a burden. The Law does that. The Gospel will never tell us we are our own Savior. It points to God as our Savior.

That answer makes no sense to me. Two seeming opposites can be true if you don't look at an ism to explain it.

 

[Josiah]

I don't "blame" the unborn for not being born.... but I do praise God for the born.


See posts 222 and 261.


.

God blames the ones that don't get born again.

Nope.

No more than God "blames" those who don't receive the miracle of physical healing for not receiving it (although they don't receive it). But nor does that mean that if they ARE given the MIRACLE of healing, they therefore caused it. You seem LOCKED into the premise that if we are blessed, it's because of what we do. Christianity is founded on the reality of GRACE.

That answer makes no sense to me.

Respectfully, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to YOU (or anyone) - no disrespect implied or intended. If the Trinity or the Two Natures of Christ doesn't "make sense" to YOU, frankly, that doesn't make the Trinity and Two Natures false (no disrespect implied or intended). It's true because God says so, not because it makes sense to you. No disrespect to you. Again, see my comments about "mystery" in posts 222 and 261.



- Josiah




.

 

[Rens]

Nope.

No more than God "blames" those who don't receive the miracle of physical healing for not receiving it (although they don't receive it). But nor does that mean that if they ARE given the MIRACLE of healing, they therefore caused it. You seem LOCKED into the premise that if we are blessed, it's because of what we do. Christianity is founded on the reality of GRACE.






Respectfully, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to YOU (or anyone) - no disrespect implied or intended. If the Trinity or the Two Natures of Christ doesn't "make sense" to YOU, frankly, that doesn't make the Trinity and Two Natures false (no disrespect implied or intended). It's true because God says so, not because it makes sense to you. No disrespect to you. Again, see my comments about "mystery" in posts 222 and 261.



- Josiah




.

God is one Person and God is 3 Persons, texts for both.
Paul says were saved by grace nothing of ourselves and Jesus said repent and if that was not possible why say it. It's just both true. Mysterious but the Bible says it so it's true.

 

[Josiah]

God is one Person and God is 3 Persons, texts for both.
Paul says were saved by grace nothing of ourselves and Jesus said repent and if that was not possible why say it. It's just both true. Mysterious but the Bible says it so it's true.

However, the Bible says that faith is "the free gift of God lest any should boast" and "no one is capable of even saying Jesus is Lord" and as we know, "repent" is a spiritual act that mandates faith in Christ. Your premise seems to hinge on your insistence that "and" doesn't mean "and" but rather "then." And your whole foundation seems to be that if we are blessed, it MUST be because of some precondition in US. That destroys the whole foundation of Christianity: GRACE..... Jesus is the Savior, Jesus saves..... it's a MIRACLE of JESUS performed by Jesus. It just doesn't matter if you can explain the how Jesus does the miracle.... it doesn't matter if the "how" makes sense to you... the point is: It's altogether a MIRACLE of GRACE by JESUS.

Again, LOTS of things are associated with this miracle. But to insist what WE do is the reason the miracle happens.... to insist WE first must do "x, y, z" and this is rewarded with life/faith/salvation... all destroys the foundation of Christianity: grace, The Savior.



- Josiah


.

 

[Rens]

However, the Bible says that faith is "the free gift of God lest any should boast" and "no one is capable of even saying Jesus is Lord" and as we know, "repent" is a spiritual act that mandates faith in Christ. Your premise seems to hinge on your insistence that "and" doesn't mean "and" but rather "then." And your whole foundation seems to be that if we are blessed, it MUST be because of some precondition in US. That destroys the whole foundation of Christianity: GRACE..... Jesus is the Savior, Jesus saves..... it's a MIRACLE of JESUS performed by Jesus. It just doesn't matter if you can explain the how Jesus does the miracle.... it doesn't matter if the "how" makes sense to you... the point is: It's altogether a MIRACLE of GRACE by JESUS.



- Josiah

It must be because of some reason that some accept Him or are chosen and some don't/aren't. It can't be that God randomly picks some and shows them grace and others not.

Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them...

8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Hey we can know the mysteries of heaven.

 

[Lamb]

God is one Person and God is 3 Persons, texts for both.
Paul says were saved by grace nothing of ourselves and Jesus said repent and if that was not possible why say it. It's just both true. Mysterious but the Bible says it so it's true.

Repentance is possible because it's a gift from the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Acts 5:31). Unbelievers don't turn to God. The Spirit turns them by faith.

The bible tells people to repent, to believe, to be baptized...all these things God does within us. They are all gift talk and given to us. This answers your question why Paul says it. When God said Let there be light, wasn't there light? When God tells us through the word to repent, do you think He turns us? Of course He does. God's word is alive and active and does not return to him empty (Hebrews 4:12, Isaiah 55:11).

Rens, which do you believe came first? Your decision or faith?

 

[Lamb]

It must be because of some reason that some accept Him or are chosen and some don't/aren't. It can't be that God randomly picks some and shows them grace and others not.

Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them...

8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Hey we can know the mysteries of heaven.

Job 42:1-3
Then Job replied to the Lord:

2
“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3
You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.


God doesn't have to reveal everything to us. But everything He HAS revealed points to the Savior and forgiveness of our sins. Those are things we cannot do and is done for us.

 

[Josiah]

It must be because of some reason that some accept Him or are chosen and some don't/aren't. It can't be that God randomly picks some and shows them grace and others not.

Again.... YOUR questions or issues don't define what is true. God does. God need not submit to you and what does or does not "make sense" to YOU. God need not submit to the "answers" that any person comes up with in his puny, limited, fallen, sinful, human brain. God's ways are not our ways. God simply knows MORE about the things of God than even Albert Einstein. No, God must NOT be what we determine/theorize/speculate.


I simply don't agree with your power to set the framework.... the assumptions.... what can and can't be. I realize you have a deep, deep issue with accepting mystery, with accepting that YOU may not have all the information, all the brains, all the understanding, all the answers..... I realize theology requires LOTS of humility (Luther: "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology, egoism is the basis of all heresy") but, with all due respect, sincerely with NO disrespect implied: none of us have all the answers, NONE of us "understand" the MYSTERIES of God, and we don't need to. Our "job" is not to force God to "make sense" to self, our "job" is to be stewards, protectors, caretakers of the MYSTERIES of God.


I wish we could agree on what Lamm, Tigger, TurtleHare, I and others are saying: Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does the Saving (all of it). Because Christianity is all founded on that, that is the point, the keystone, on which Christianity stands or falls. If God only ENABLES or rewards, if God is only the Possibility-Maker or Doorman, if God simply rewards self..... then Christianity crashes to the ground and we have aligned ourselves with the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism. But this IS the point that has angered and offended some... for 27 pages, rebuffs and ridicule and rejection of the Gospel.

Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them...

8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Hey we can know the mysteries of heaven.

We "know" the mysteries. We embrace them as TRUTH, not because we UNDERSTAND them, not because they "make sense" to self but because we KNOW them. The Trinity is TRUE not because I can explain to you the physics involved or can answer all the "questions" some can ask or because it "makes sense" but because I know it to be true. I know it because God has revealed it - and I have the humility to accept, laying aside whatever doubts or problems I might have.



- Josiah



.