Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Rens]

[MENTION=181]Rens[/MENTION]


So, Christ is not the Savior (since "you" do it) but He is the Helper? The Enabler? What you stated is a rejection of Christ as the SAVIOR and a proclamation of Christ as the HELPER. Yes, that does give Christ a role, just not of SAVIOR.


Rens.... in justification, the distinctive difference between modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism compared to Christianity is those other religions have no role for a Savior. They teach that we CANNOT (at all) do what we need to do by own strength or ability. BUT their "gospel" is that God supplies us with fully sufficient strenght - making His divine power fully available to each individual. IF (there's the catch), IF we adequately "tap" it, then WE can save OURSELVES. They have no Savior because self has that role, instead, they say God HELPS us. In Judaism and Islam, God supplies mercy to "make up" for what we lacked as long as we "tapped" God's available power enough, sufficfiently, in that case, God supplying mercy to supply what we failed to achieve (as long as we tapped God's strengh enough.... we tried hard enough). In those forms of Hinduism, we are given another shot at it to build on what we failed to achieve. But Rens.... Christian justification is founded on an entirely different view. Christianity is not simply a form of modern Judaism, Islam and Hinduism. Christian soteriology is fundamentally different. Christianity is entirely founded on the truth that we need a SAVIOR (not helper) and that God has given and supplied that SAVIOR (not made available His help so we can save ourselves).







"You" "You" "You" Not even so much as a mention of grace, mercy, God, the SAVIOR..... Rens, I hope what you posted is the antithesis of your faith and belief, that you just very, very poorly expressed your faith. This statement makes you 100% the Savior, it all depends on YOU.

Now, you MAY be suggesting the idea that while Jesus is not at all the Savior, He is the possibility-maker. In that view, Jesus "opened the door to heaven but YOU gotta get YOURSELF through it by YOUR works." While most with that view see our "works" as love and morality, you see it as a matter of chanting the sinner's prayer, the dead/unregerate person making the right decision, the spiritually dead person who rejects Christ asking for His forgiveness, etc. But it's the same point: Saved by what WE do, saved by OUR works. Jesus' role perhaps to make it POSSIBLE for self to save self by what self does, but not saving anyone. I pray that's not your faith. Christianity is founded entirely on the truth that we NEED to be SAVED and that God has given us that Savior who saves us. Modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism are based on the idea that we don't need a Savior we just need the door opened for us and enough power/strength/enabling so that we can walk through it.... they don't have a Savior because they don't see we need one: just the possiblity and enough help. Is that what you are proclaiming?


Friend, I sincerely hope you'll consider the Scriptures Turtle offered... the things Lamm and Tigger and Turtle and myself are sharing.... there is Gospel. And it's ALL about Jesus who IS THE (one and only and all suffient SAVIOR). Christianity is not just a mildly messaged version of Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism..... it's the Gospel that God SAVES and He does so because He is Agape (unconditional love) and operates by GRACE (giving what is undeserved, unearned, unachieved)..... We are directed to the Cross, not to the mirror.

Friend, consider what Scripture says: Without faith, people are DEAD. Spiritually DEAD. Deader than a doorknob! Such the Bible says CANNOT choose anything spiritual. Dead people can't do much. The Bible says faith and the salvation it embraces are "the FREE GIFT of God."



Soli DEO Gloria....



- Josiah

I don't say you can do it: save yourself, you can do it: respond, say yes.

What's wrong with Helper? The Holy Spirit is a Helper.
The one who gets you out of prison is the saviour, not the one who is made able to accept it.
It sounds so over the top to say all the time He did this He did that. We had a guy who fixed our house when I was a student and we'd tell him: wow man, good job, amazing how you can do that and I'll never forget, he said: it's not my merit, I got this ability from God. Ehm yep yes of course that is true never mind lol.

 

[Josiah]

The Revelation verse is speaking to those who already believe.

Correct. Of course.


But as I TRIED AGAIN to point out, the premise being again made is incorrect. The premise is that IF God calls us to do something, THEREFORE we must be able to do it. It's a very popular argument among the "Decision Theology" and Arminian folks. But it makes no sense .... and it's entirely unbiblical. The PREMISE is wrong. I TRIED (again) to seek that the poster could examine the premise, the basis of their argument and apologetic.

The Matthew verse... earlier as Jesus was speaking to the crowd He said, "Whoever has ears, let them hear." And then prior to the verse you posted He said, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." So you see, those who do go to Him in comfort can only do so because God gave them faith. Jesus said things to the crowds knowing that some would reject Him. Those who believed did so because the faith given as He preached remained.

The John verse... earlier than the verse 35 Jesus said to the crowd, "For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” And then there were people in the crowd who replied “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.” They understood since the knew of the coming Messiah and they had faith.

Exactly.



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

What's wrong with Helper?

Nothing for the modern Jew or Muslim or Hindu.....

And in SANCTIFICATION, for the one who HAS faith, HAS spiritual life, HAS a relationship with God, there is certainly, undeniably that blessing! Of course. But yet again, still one more time, this thread is not about what those WITH FAITH can or should do..... it's not about what those WITH SPIRITUAL life can and can't do..... it's not about what those WITH FAITH have or don't have. It's about GAINING faith. BECOMING a Christian BECOMING alive. As has been explained here over and over and and over and over and over again.

Again, in justification, the idea that we save ourselves albeit solely because God has made salvation possible (opened the door to heaven so that our entrance is possible) and because God offers us more than suffiecient enabling/empowering to achieve this, that's the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and in some forms of Hinduism. What I've often read in this thread and at CH is a very excellent proclamation of what Jews and Muslims and some Hindus believe about justification. Sometimes, folks here have even given their view of justification without so much as even a mention of Jesus or grace or mercy or the Savior - just self, enabled. Some things posted here could have been posted by any modern Jew or Muslim with identical, verbatim words. In those religions, God makes our salvation POSSIBLE and ENABLES us to achieve it, but we save ourselves (and thus no need for any Savior).

But friend, Christianity is not simply a form of Judaism or Islam or Hinduism. Christianity proclaims that the dead are dead, and that we NEED a SAVIOR (not just an enabler or possibility maker), and that God has supplied that SAVIOR. Friend, that's the entire foundation of Christianity, the whole point of Christianity, the keystone of Christianity..... undermine that and all Christianity crashes to the ground, it all crumbles. As I've TRIED to say, I didn't cause myself to come to physical life.... and I didn't cause myself to come to spiritual life. We have the SAVIOR - and His name is Jesus! Justification is all about Jesus! I don't look to me, I don't lift up myself, I don't count on anything I did while dead. Look to the Cross! Lift high the Cross! We have a SAVIOR (not a Muslim, Hindu Possibility-maker and enabler but the SAVIOR!!!!) and He is Jesus!

YES, again, yet again, one more time, as I've posted over and over and over again, YES, of course, obviously, undeniably, ONCE made alive..... once GIVEN faith..... once SAVED....... now with the Holy Spirit in my life..... I now live.... I'm now, therefore, called to great things (and empowered to do them!!!!). But don't get the cart before the horse, don't destroy the whole basis of Christianity by reversing these so that what I DO leads to me having faith, having life, being saved. It destroys Christianity. It makes Jesus irrelevant. It turns "grace" into nothing more than the Muslim idea of "God helps those who help themselves."




.

 

[Brighten04]

But as I TRIED AGAIN to point out, the premise being again made is incorrect. The premise is that IF God calls us to do something, THEREFORE we must be able to do it. It's a very popular argument among the "Decision Theology" and Arminian folks. But it makes no sense .... and it's entirely unbiblical. The PREMISE is wrong. I TRIED (again) to seek that the poster could examine the premise, the basis of their argument and apologetic.

I think I need to make some things clear. I am NOT Arminian (I don't even know what that is) I am NOT Calvinist (whatever that is) I do not adhere to any particular denominational practice or doctrine. I worship with the Baptist, but I do not consider myself Baptist. IMHO denominational dogmas and doctrines cloud the pure truth of scripture.. I can follow the pure scripture pretty well and I take personally the teachings of Lord Jesus. I have nothing to do with what anyone else thinks or believe. You believe it your way and I believe it my way, but I know that all of us are missing something very vital and the denominations don't have it all. I see some good points in most denominations.What I find frustrating is not that we believe certain things in a different way, but that people cannot seem to move outside of their denominational teaching. But I understand the fear. I was raised Baptist, and I was not able to grow up spiritually out of a lot of my carnality until I began to read the scriptures for myself and allowed the Holy Spirit to do what He came to do and that is to lead me into all truth. You all have to grow at your own pace, but I want you all to know that I love all of you. And I pray for you and us, and this forum. I just wrote this so you all will stop assigning labels to me.I do not write from manmade doctrines. So please, out of love, spare me the comparison to ANY.

 

[Josiah]

Brighten04.


I've never assigned any labels to you. I did assign labels to POSITIONS you've parroted. You did express, promote and defend POSITIONS. Thos positions have names, they are known by a "label" as you put it. Frankly, I'm not at all sure you've really thought about those positions (or even know the theology of those positions), and I've TRIED to help you in evaluating if what you are posting even is your faith, YOUR position (I've failed in that, but....). Frankly, some of the things I've read in this thread have greatly troubled and concerned me - partly because at least as worded the words can destroy Christianity, and partly because I've come to care about many here.

Again, never have a put any "label" on you. But some of the proclamations and dogmas you've very clearly posted ARE known by a label. Whether you are aware of that or not. Again, I can't know if you really believe them (I've failed in learning that) but when you post it verbatim and defend it persistently exactly as the proclaimers of it do, it's not unfair to call the POSITION what it is and by what it is known.


Friend, Christianity rises or falls on this point: Jesus is the Savior. Dead ones need a Savior.... God provides Him.... His name is Jesus.... Jesus saves. The dead need to be raised to life - and JESUS does that. Friend, all I'm doing is trying to defend that from positions that deny or denounce or endanger that. I know some Jews, some Muslims, some Hindus.... and they've told me what you have verbatim parroted as why they reject Christianity. I'm NOT saying YOU are trying to undermine anything, but I do think some of the positions you've shared do (the one on which Christianity stands or crumbles).


No, I'm not defending Lutheranism (Lutherans are FAR from the only ones that are "monergistic" or hold that Jesus does the saving, Jesus rises the dead by His GRACE and because of what HE did/does). I'm defending Christianity. I've never once mentioned any denomination in this thread (although the opening video does, I realize) because IMO this has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with denominations. It has everything to do with Who is the Savior. Who does the saving. Who raises the dead to life. By His own miracle. Because of grace.


Soli Deo Gloria


- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

When someone who loves you gives you a gift, maybe for your birthday or Christmas...do you go around telling people you received it because you decided to accept it? Does anyone really even speak like that in that type of language? I've NEVER heard anyone say that, for the record. But when it comes to salvation, I hear it all the time.

 

[Brighten04]

When someone who loves you gives you a gift, maybe for your birthday or Christmas...do you go around telling people you received it because you decided to accept it?

NO! You have it all wrong if this is the way you have understood what I have been saying. OK,look at what you wrote and please see the difference.

When someone loves me enough to give me a gift, I accept it because they thought I was worth it.

 

[Rens]

When someone who loves you gives you a gift, maybe for your birthday or Christmas...do you go around telling people you received it because you decided to accept it? Does anyone really even speak like that in that type of language? I've NEVER heard anyone say that, for the record. But when it comes to salvation, I hear it all the time.

If someone does not even know what a birthday gift is or how you can get it, by simply saying thank you, yes then I would lay the focus on that, so the other one knows how to get it too. Evangelicals are very focused on the non saved. My brother went to a bunch of churches when we were getting convinced that God existed, but only the pentecostal one was very clear and told you how you could get saved. If you don't even know you even need a gift, someone has to explain it simple. That's why they lay the focus on me, I did this and that to receive His gift of eternal Life, you can too, repeat after me.

 

[Josiah]

]Evangelicals are very focused on the non saved.

And of course, the dead/unregenerate are... well.... dead. So the question becomes, how do they rise from the dead? Do they do it by their own willing, choosing, deciding? By their good works and deeds? Or.... does God GIVE them life, as HIS work, as HIS miracle? It might help to consider John 11:38-44.

IF they are focused on the dead/lifeless/unfaithful..... then it is very important to focus on the One who GIVES life, the One who rises from the dead. They should lift high the Cross rather than the enormous abilities of dead people.

OBVIOUSLY, Jesus calls on the dead to rise (as He did Lazarus), but it is a false premise to conclude that therefore, as a result, they can rise themselves from the death - they can do what they have been called to do (even if empowered). No. Only God can give life.... only God can rise the dead/unregenerate/unbelieving/lost. I don't claim to understand all the HOW in this.... all the dynamics of this... but one thing is KEY: Just as Lazarus did NOTHING to bring about his life, so we did nothing. It's ALL Jesus! It's ALL the Cross! It's ALL grace! It's ALL a divine miracle! Our will and choice and works and merits as a dead/lifeless/unregerate/unbeliever didn't have a thing to do with our rising from the dead (anymore than Lazarus' when he was in that tomb, stinking to high heaven). The central point of Christianity.... the point on which it stands or falls: JESUS IS THE SAVIOR. Not partly/sorta the Helper or Enabler. Not "the Doorman." Not "the Possibility-Maker" Nope. The SAVIOR. The MIRACLE WORKER. The one who raises the dead. ANYTHING that threatens that.... threatens to destroy Christianity and make Christ irrelevant at best.



- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

And of course, the dead/unregenerate are... well.... dead. So the question becomes, how do they rise from the dead? Do they do it by their own willing, choosing, deciding? By their good works and deeds? Or.... does God GIVE them life, as HIS work, as HIS miracle? It might help to consider John 11:38-44.

IF they are focused on the dead/lifeless/unfaithful..... then it is very important to focus on the One who GIVES life, the One who rises from the dead. They should lift high the Cross rather than the enormous abilities of dead people.

OBVIOUSLY, Jesus calls on the dead to rise (as He did Lazarus), but it is a false premise to conclude that therefore, as a result, they can rise themselves from the death - they can do what they have been called to do (even if empowered). No. Only God can give life.... only God can rise the dead/unregenerate/unbelieving/lost. I don't claim to understand all the HOW in this.... all the dynamics of this... but one thing is KEY: Just as Lazarus did NOTHING to bring about his life, so we did nothing. It's ALL Jesus! It's ALL the Cross! It's ALL grace! It's ALL a divine miracle! Our will and choice and works and merits as a dead/lifeless/unregerate/unbeliever didn't have a thing to do with our rising from the dead (anymore than Lazarus' when he was in that tomb, stinking to high heaven). The central point of Christianity.... the point on which it stands or falls: JESUS IS THE SAVIOR. Not partly/sorta the Helper or Enabler. Not "the Doorman." Not "the Possibility-Maker" Nope. The SAVIOR. The MIRACLE WORKER. The one who raises the dead. ANYTHING that threatens that.... threatens to destroy Christianity and make Christ irrelevant at best.



- Josiah



.

They don't destroy that. Of course they focus on Him. They just help you pray a prayer and ask Him to forgive your sins. Steve Hill, so many people made decisions there for Jesus, wouldn't say they're not focused on His work though.

https://youtu.be/CcjuC016c68

 

[Rens]

This is funny. I'm gonna implement it in my way of talking from now on. Lol Snerf did so much work to take care of that cat. I said I'm proud of you, you did a great job, I mean you did nothing, Jesus did it all LOL.

 

[Lamb]

NO! You have it all wrong if this is the way you have understood what I have been saying. OK,look at what you wrote and please see the difference.

When someone loves me enough to give me a gift, I accept it because they thought I was worth it.

Your acceptance doesn't make the gift though. That's the difference. We have salvation because God gives it to us freely. We receive it but our reception isn't what makes it the gift. Decision theology says I have this gift because I accepted it. That's not biblical. We have the gift because God gives it.

 

[Lamb]

If someone does not even know what a birthday gift is or how you can get it, by simply saying thank you, yes then I would lay the focus on that, so the other one knows how to get it too. Evangelicals are very focused on the non saved. My brother went to a bunch of churches when we were getting convinced that God existed, but only the pentecostal one was very clear and told you how you could get saved. If you don't even know you even need a gift, someone has to explain it simple. That's why they lay the focus on me, I did this and that to receive His gift of eternal Life, you can too, repeat after me.

Preaching the Gospel gives faith because the Holy Spirit uses the word. It's about the Gospel and what Jesus has done. Not what you have done. Not at all. It's not about you.

 

[Rens]

Preaching the Gospel gives faith because the Holy Spirit uses the word. It's about the Gospel and what Jesus has done. Not what you have done. Not at all. It's not about you.

It's all about me. I'm the best.

 

[Brighten04]

Your acceptance doesn't make the gift though. That's the difference. We have salvation because God gives it to us freely. We receive it but our reception isn't what makes it the gift. Decision theology says I have this gift because I accepted it. That's not biblical. We have the gift because God gives it.

WHAT??? <sigh> I give up. Later.

 

[Lamb]

WHAT??? <sigh> I give up. Later.

What is so wrong with God saving you 100%? Why does that frustrate you to have Him be your sole Savior? He gave you life just as He gave Adam life and the dry bones in the desert and Lazarus. Why is that such an awful thing to believe? That He could do it without your permission or acceptance? Any type of accepting or deciding didn't make it happen.

 

[psalms 91]

WHAT??? <sigh> I give up. Later.

I already did, plain and simple it is easy to see that we will never agree and the words keep getting twisted so it is not worth it to me to continue beating my head against a wall, I suggest for your peace of mind that you also just ignore it.

 

[Lamb]

I don't understand why it's so awful that people don't want to give God all the credit and feel they have to take some for themselves concerning salvation? Why are those who preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins...and not anything of ourselves...persecuted?

 

[Brighten04]

I don't understand why it's so awful that people don't want to give God all the credit and feel they have to take some for themselves concerning salvation? Why are those who preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins...and not anything of ourselves...persecuted?

Lamm you persecute yourself by continuing to badger those who don't believe it the way you do. Don't you trust our Father? For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. You say we play no part and Lord Jesus does it all so let Him do it. I am not persecuting you, and I don't think anyone else here is persecuting you. Let our Father work His will in us and in you.Lord Jesus says repent or perish. I don't want to perish so I repented. Here are His words.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Now if you do not believe repentance is necessary, cool. I trust our Father and I have prayed for you. I love you Lamm.:smlove2:

 

[Lamb]

Lamm you persecute yourself by continuing to badger those who don't believe it the way you do. Don't you trust our Father? For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. You say we play no part and Lord Jesus does it all so let Him do it. I am not persecuting you, and I don't think anyone else here is persecuting you. Let our Father work His will in us and in you.Lord Jesus says repent or perish. I don't want to perish so I repented. Here are His words.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Now if you do not believe repentance is necessary, cool. I trust our Father and I have prayed for you. I love you Lamm.:smlove2:

I believe repentance is a gift because scripture says it is. Do you?