Adam and Eve

[bennaks]

Hello,

So this is my first post here...
I've bought a copy of the Holy Bible some time ago and started reading (or listening with Audible.com). I'm at Chronicles 1 right now, so I'm still in the old testament.

While reading the Bible I have come across some parts that I felt I needed to ask knowledgable Christians about. I do realize that asking about religion is a sensitive issue, especially when coming from an outsider, and therefore I'm going to try to pose my questions in the most respectful way possible. If by any chance the phrasing of my questions offends anyone please let me know so that I can fix it. I also understand that not getting a good answer does not necessarily mean that there is something wrong with the Bible, it just means that we don't know the answer to a particular question. Someone else might though.

Okay, now that my boring intro is over, I'm going to ask my first question starting with Genesis.

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
[16] And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

----------------

From what I understand, God here warns Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will definitely lead to his death.

---------------

Genesis 3:1-7 KJV
[1] … Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. …

---------------
And here the serpent promises Eve that eating from the tree would not kill them but will open their eyes and make them know good and evil.

What surprised me is that after they ate from the tree, what happened made the Serpent look like an honest adviser while making God, God forbid, on the wrong side. How is that possible?

So what I did is that I turned to dear uncle Google for answers. The answers I found all pointed out that the verses were talking about the death of the soul and not the body, and since sinning against God degrades and kills the soul, God's warning did come true.

I didn't feel satisfied by this answer for two reasons.

The first is that ,from what I understand, Adam and Eve were naive to the point that they did not realize they were even naked. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to hold someone with that degree of knowledge accountable for his or her actions. It's kind of like punishing a baby for spilling his or her bottle.

The second is that knowledge of good and evil is probably the most important component of nurturing the soul is it not? I mean it is with this knowledge that one can "choose" to do good and refrain from evil. Otherwise, if you do not have this knowledge you cannot be considered a good person even if you do do good, right? Back to my baby analogy, if a toddler were to give a thousand dollars to a homeless man, we wouldn't consider him/her generous because he doesn't realize what he is doing, right? Or if a CT scanner kept working all day taking scans of patients we wouldn't consider it to be a hard-working, devoted CT scanner because it doesn't have the conscience and knowledge to make a choice, right? So what Adam and Eve did by eating from the tree of good and evil is that they took the first step towards nurturing their souls not killing it, right?

That's the end of my first question. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could clear this issue for me.

Conflict of interest disclosure:
I have been raised as a Muslim, and I am still a practicing Muslim. This can obviously have an influence on the way I think and process ideas, which, as is the case with most people, may lead to unintentional biases. My intention of asking questions here is not to prove anyone wrong or right, I'm just doing what is right in my mind by asking Christians about their religion instead of just taking the word of non-Christians about Christianity or the Holy Bible.
I believe that as long as we do our best to reach the truth, God will accept us whether we are Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. Because God is fair and doing otherwise would be unfair.

That's all
Thanks.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hello bennaks,

May I make a couple of observations about reading the bible. I think they may help you.

First, the bible is not a single book like a novel is a single book or a history is. It is a library of books. Each part was written by an author and in a style to suit his needs. For example the Psalms are poetry written for prayer and singing. Proverbs is a collection of wise sayings. First and Second Chronicles are royal histories (a little bit like government propaganda is today, true but written from one point of view). So it is important not to expect the bible to be like a single book of history. It is a collection of different books and many are not history.

Second, reading the bible alone apart from religious tradition and the wealth of interpretive wisdom acquired over the centuries is likely to lead to misunderstandings. Be sure to ask advice, as you have done here, and be sure to take time to read commentaries when you are unsure of what a passage may mean.

God be with you as you read.

Philip is my name.

 

[Cassia]

Hello,

So this is my first post here...
I've bought a copy of the Holy Bible some time ago and started reading (or listening with Audible.com). I'm at Chronicles 1 right now, so I'm still in the old testament.

While reading the Bible I have come across some parts that I felt I needed to ask knowledgable Christians about. I do realize that asking about religion is a sensitive issue, especially when coming from an outsider, and therefore I'm going to try to pose my questions in the most respectful way possible. If by any chance the phrasing of my questions offends anyone please let me know so that I can fix it. I also understand that not getting a good answer does not necessarily mean that there is something wrong with the Bible, it just means that we don't know the answer to a particular question. Someone else might though.

Okay, now that my boring intro is over, I'm going to ask my first question starting with Genesis.

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
[16] And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

----------------

From what I understand, God here warns Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will definitely lead to his death.

---------------

Genesis 3:1-7 KJV
[1] … Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. …

---------------
And here the serpent promises Eve that eating from the tree would not kill them but will open their eyes and make them know good and evil.

What surprised me is that after they ate from the tree, what happened made the Serpent look like an honest adviser while making God, God forbid, on the wrong side. How is that possible?

So what I did is that I turned to dear uncle Google for answers. The answers I found all pointed out that the verses were talking about the death of the soul and not the body, and since sinning against God degrades and kills the soul, God's warning did come true.

I didn't feel satisfied by this answer for two reasons.

The first is that ,from what I understand, Adam and Eve were naive to the point that they did not realize they were even naked. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to hold someone with that degree of knowledge accountable for his or her actions. It's kind of like punishing a baby for spilling his or her bottle.

The second is that knowledge of good and evil is probably the most important component of nurturing the soul is it not? I mean it is with this knowledge that one can "choose" to do good and refrain from evil. Otherwise, if you do not have this knowledge you cannot be considered a good person even if you do do good, right? Back to my baby analogy, if a toddler were to give a thousand dollars to a homeless man, we wouldn't consider him/her generous because he doesn't realize what he is doing, right? Or if a CT scanner kept working all day taking scans of patients we wouldn't consider it to be a hard-working, devoted CT scanner because it doesn't have the conscience and knowledge to make a choice, right? So what Adam and Eve did by eating from the tree of good and evil is that they took the first step towards nurturing their souls not killing it, right?

That's the end of my first question. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could clear this issue for me.

Conflict of interest disclosure:
I have been raised as a Muslim, and I am still a practicing Muslim. This can obviously have an influence on the way I think and process ideas, which, as is the case with most people, may lead to unintentional biases. My intention of asking questions here is not to prove anyone wrong or right, I'm just doing what is right in my mind by asking Christians about their religion instead of just taking the word of non-Christians about Christianity or the Holy Bible.
I believe that as long as we do our best to reach the truth, God will accept us whether we are Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. Because God is fair and doing otherwise would be unfair.

That's all
Thanks.

What's complicated about answering your question is that Christianity and no other religion is factored in. I say that because when you look at the bible as a whole the culmination of it is
1) a return to the Father to the city made of the jewels from the garden, not as a raw material but as a processed complete return.
2) the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not factored in to God's complete picture because what is made from our very best is still not good enough. Only what is of Him will remain.
3) it's not mentioned whether there was foreknowledge on God's part and if it were a part of the plan for people to experience good and evil for them to progress to a further understanding but that does seem to be the progression of the bible.
4) they could not stand on holy ground while being a part of satan's lie which was that God was not caring for them in their best interest

 

[Brighten04]

Hi Bennak,
Welcome.I am glad you are reading the Holy Bible and asking questions about our Heavenly Father.To find the answer to your questions, you have to ask yourself some questions. Why did our Father create man?

From what I understand, God here warns Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will definitely lead to his death.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Here we see our Father's purpose for creating Adam, and, see Adam was created in the very image and likeness of God Himself for He was the son of God
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
King James Version (KJV)

Then God made Heaven on Earth (so to speak:lol: )

Gen. 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So the first Adam got the first job. Here is his job description.
1.Dress the Garden
2.Keep the Garden
3. Have dominion over every created thing
4.Eat anything in the Garden you want EXCEPT...
5. Do not eat of the tree in the midst of the Garden...WHY NOT?
6. Because you will die.

Most parents, when they command their children to do something, or not to do something, they expect the children to obey, right? "Johnny, don't eat from the cookie jar or you will get a spanking." Parent comes back and cookie crumbs all over little Johnny's face. Tsk,tsk. Now, the parent is obligated to keep the punishment. Why? Because if the parent does not keep the punishment, little Johnny will not reverence the parent's word. Little Johnny will disrespect the parent's word in the future, and little Johnny will think the parent did not mean what he/she said. Well if you can understand that scenario, it is not too hard to understand what happened in the Garden of Eden. OK, I need to start another post because I think this one will run out of room so to be continued in the next post from me.

 

[Rens]

Hello,

So this is my first post here...
I've bought a copy of the Holy Bible some time ago and started reading (or listening with Audible.com). I'm at Chronicles 1 right now, so I'm still in the old testament.

While reading the Bible I have come across some parts that I felt I needed to ask knowledgable Christians about. I do realize that asking about religion is a sensitive issue, especially when coming from an outsider, and therefore I'm going to try to pose my questions in the most respectful way possible. If by any chance the phrasing of my questions offends anyone please let me know so that I can fix it. I also understand that not getting a good answer does not necessarily mean that there is something wrong with the Bible, it just means that we don't know the answer to a particular question. Someone else might though.

Okay, now that my boring intro is over, I'm going to ask my first question starting with Genesis.

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
[16] And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

----------------

From what I understand, God here warns Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will definitely lead to his death.

---------------

Genesis 3:1-7 KJV
[1] … Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. …

---------------
And here the serpent promises Eve that eating from the tree would not kill them but will open their eyes and make them know good and evil.

What surprised me is that after they ate from the tree, what happened made the Serpent look like an honest adviser while making God, God forbid, on the wrong side. How is that possible?

So what I did is that I turned to dear uncle Google for answers. The answers I found all pointed out that the verses were talking about the death of the soul and not the body, and since sinning against God degrades and kills the soul, God's warning did come true.

I didn't feel satisfied by this answer for two reasons.

The first is that ,from what I understand, Adam and Eve were naive to the point that they did not realize they were even naked. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to hold someone with that degree of knowledge accountable for his or her actions. It's kind of like punishing a baby for spilling his or her bottle.

The second is that knowledge of good and evil is probably the most important component of nurturing the soul is it not? I mean it is with this knowledge that one can "choose" to do good and refrain from evil. Otherwise, if you do not have this knowledge you cannot be considered a good person even if you do do good, right? Back to my baby analogy, if a toddler were to give a thousand dollars to a homeless man, we wouldn't consider him/her generous because he doesn't realize what he is doing, right? Or if a CT scanner kept working all day taking scans of patients we wouldn't consider it to be a hard-working, devoted CT scanner because it doesn't have the conscience and knowledge to make a choice, right? So what Adam and Eve did by eating from the tree of good and evil is that they took the first step towards nurturing their souls not killing it, right?

That's the end of my first question. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could clear this issue for me.

Conflict of interest disclosure:
I have been raised as a Muslim, and I am still a practicing Muslim. This can obviously have an influence on the way I think and process ideas, which, as is the case with most people, may lead to unintentional biases. My intention of asking questions here is not to prove anyone wrong or right, I'm just doing what is right in my mind by asking Christians about their religion instead of just taking the word of non-Christians about Christianity or the Holy Bible.
I believe that as long as we do our best to reach the truth, God will accept us whether we are Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. Because God is fair and doing otherwise would be unfair.

That's all
Thanks.

They were not babies, they were created in His Image. They were able to make a choice and obey God, although they didn't understand why.
It's actually the same today. They had an understanding of right and wrong, but to know evil in this text is knowing by experience. You don't get to really know evil until you do that sin or someone sins against you. Like taking harddrugs or a cigarette. You get warned not to do it. You can very easily say no the first time although you have never experienced it. Then the devil says: ah do it anyway. It won't kill you. Then you make a choice.
Genesis says that Adam was not even mislead by satan. He knew it was wrong, but the woman tempted him. That's much harder, but still not impossible, he could have protected her instead, and it was still his own choice to disobey God.
He blamed God btw. That woman You gave me.

 

[Brighten04]

Genesis 3:1-7 KJV
[1] … Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. …

---------------
And here the serpent promises Eve that eating from the tree would not kill them but will open their eyes and make them know good and evil.

What surprised me is that after they ate from the tree, what happened made the Serpent look like an honest adviser while making God, God forbid, on the wrong side. How is that possible?

Subtle means sneaky, sly,subversive, (heh,heh,heh :rotfl: ). The art of a great deceiver is they deceive the subject and the subject cannot detect the deception. This is what happened to Eve.The serpent convinced her to obey him rather than obey our Father. (call it peer pressure).Eve was all the way good with absolutely no evil anywhere. She standing there surrounded by God's glory, large and in charge! Maybe she didn't understand that she was already like our Father, for she was made in His image and God is all the way good, no evil anywhere. That old snake convinced her that knowing evil was a good thing! He convinced her that our Father was hiding all of this good old evil from her. He even convinced her that it was to make her wiser than she already was. Well, the truth was, he was jealous because number one, she was made in God's image, he wasn't. She was given dominion over all of God's creation, including him. OH NO! She is not going to command ME! Can't you just hear him.Can't you just hear the plot to steal, kill, and destroy? He is a thief you know.Look, he even has you thinking of him as a "honest advisor". :rotfl: .See how clever he is. Eve was not the one he wanted though, he wanted to mess Adam up. He wanted to steal Adam's identity as the son of God. This was identity theft on a universal scale.He wanted the dominion for himself. So, when Eve offered Adam the fruit, he CHOMPED, down on it, eating himself out of house and home. Instantly the glory covering left them," OH! We're naked!" " What to do? What to do?" That part that old serpent left out. See, he always tell lies. I started to say half of the truth, but, half the truth is still a lie. Now our Father had already told Adam what was going to happen to him if he ate from the one tree, so now He has to keep His Word and administer the punishment decreed. Now Adam learns the full measure of his disobedience. OH! BUT GOD, had a plan all along.

Now do you still see the serpent as a "honest advisor"?

 

[bennaks]

Wow! I did not expect to get all those replys that fast! Thank you all!

Philip, thanks a lot for the advice. Is there a book that you would recommend for me to read along side the Bible to understand it better?

Cassia, interesting. Thank you.

Thank you for your answer Rens. So what you're saying is that Adam and Eve had enough knowledge to choose between good from evil but they were naive due to lack of experience? That makes sense, but when the Bible implys that they were not aware of their nakedness, doesn't that mean that their perception hadn't matured to the point where they can be taken accountable for their choices? Or am I taking it too literally?

Brighten04, wow I enjoyed reading your reply the most. Very engaging . I can see how hiding the fact that they would be kicked out of heaven is deceptive. So he's probably not very honest after all, just a bit honest maybe . On the other hand, the parent did not keep the punishment, right? I mean there was still a punishment, just not the one he told them they would get. That is what's confusing me.

 

[Brighten04]

On the other hand, the parent did not keep the punishment, right? I mean there was still a punishment, just not the one he told them they would get. That is what's confusing me.

Oh yes, the punishment was immediate. Once they ate, immediate separation from the Father happened, that is spiritual death. The glory that made them one with the Father and alive spiritually was stripped away and they went from life to death spiritually. Every other person born was born with this dead /retarded spiritual condition.

 

[Stravinsk]

Hello,

So this is my first post here...
I've bought a copy of the Holy Bible some time ago and started reading (or listening with Audible.com). I'm at Chronicles 1 right now, so I'm still in the old testament.

While reading the Bible I have come across some parts that I felt I needed to ask knowledgable Christians about. I do realize that asking about religion is a sensitive issue, especially when coming from an outsider, and therefore I'm going to try to pose my questions in the most respectful way possible. If by any chance the phrasing of my questions offends anyone please let me know so that I can fix it. I also understand that not getting a good answer does not necessarily mean that there is something wrong with the Bible, it just means that we don't know the answer to a particular question. Someone else might though.

Okay, now that my boring intro is over, I'm going to ask my first question starting with Genesis.

Genesis 2:16-17 KJV
[16] And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

----------------

From what I understand, God here warns Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will definitely lead to his death.

---------------

Genesis 3:1-7 KJV
[1] … Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. …

---------------
And here the serpent promises Eve that eating from the tree would not kill them but will open their eyes and make them know good and evil.

What surprised me is that after they ate from the tree, what happened made the Serpent look like an honest adviser while making God, God forbid, on the wrong side. How is that possible?

Hello bennaks. I identify as Deist here, although I come from a Christian background and am fairly familiar with the Bible. The difference I have with Christians is mostly that I do not accept various NT texts, Saul/Paul's conversion or his writings as inspired. The gospel of John and Matthew are what I cling to, leaving out Luke and Mark.

The serpent (the devil) in the story tells a half-truth. He mixes in a truth and taints it with a lie. God said that if Adam and Eve eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will die. The serpent says their eyes will be opened, they will be as God, knowing good and evil - but here is the lie he tells - he tells them they will not die.

Adam and Eve both died. According to Genesis, they lived many years, but they both died. God did not say that if they eat of the tree, they would die immediately - just that they would die. In fact, both of them are kicked out of the Garden of Eden after their disobedience expressly because God did not want them to eat of the tree of life and live forever - in their disobedient state. Genesis 3:22. Prior to this, they were free to eat of the tree of life.

So what I did is that I turned to dear uncle Google for answers. The answers I found all pointed out that the verses were talking about the death of the soul and not the body, and since sinning against God degrades and kills the soul, God's warning did come true.

I didn't feel satisfied by this answer for two reasons.

The first is that ,from what I understand, Adam and Eve were naive to the point that they did not realize they were even naked. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to hold someone with that degree of knowledge accountable for his or her actions. It's kind of like punishing a baby for spilling his or her bottle.

This is a common misconception. If Adam and Eve were unaware of nakedness (in the bodily sense) then they wouldn't have understood God's first instruction to them - "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Genesis 1: 28

Further, Genesis 2:25 states: "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Neither sex nor nakedness was shameful before they ate the fruit. So what changed?

Awareness - of sin. They both chose to participate - act - in disobedience, and as a result they became aware of the wrong - in the complete sense. Their bodies could be used in ways that are sinful. To hurt one another. To lie. To murder. Steal. Etc.

The second is that knowledge of good and evil is probably the most important component of nurturing the soul is it not? I mean it is with this knowledge that one can "choose" to do good and refrain from evil. Otherwise, if you do not have this knowledge you cannot be considered a good person even if you do do good, right? Back to my baby analogy, if a toddler were to give a thousand dollars to a homeless man, we wouldn't consider him/her generous because he doesn't realize what he is doing, right? Or if a CT scanner kept working all day taking scans of patients we wouldn't consider it to be a hard-working, devoted CT scanner because it doesn't have the conscience and knowledge to make a choice, right? So what Adam and Eve did by eating from the tree of good and evil is that they took the first step towards nurturing their souls not killing it, right?

That's the end of my first question. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could clear this issue for me.

The difference that is being missed is that of attainment. God knows everything, has all knowledge. He doesn't need to experience evil to know what it is. In contrast - Adam and Eve took action *because they didn't know* - their knowledge was obtained by an act of disobedience.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wow! I did not expect to get all those replys that fast! Thank you all!

Philip, thanks a lot for the advice. Is there a book that you would recommend for me to read along side the Bible to understand it better?

Cassia, interesting. Thank you.

Thank you for your answer Rens. So what you're saying is that Adam and Eve had enough knowledge to choose between good from evil but they were naive due to lack of experience? That makes sense, but when the Bible implys that they were not aware of their nakedness, doesn't that mean that their perception hadn't matured to the point where they can be taken accountable for their choices? Or am I taking it too literally?

Brighten04, wow I enjoyed reading your reply the most. Very engaging . I can see how hiding the fact that they would be kicked out of heaven is deceptive. So he's probably not very honest after all, just a bit honest maybe . On the other hand, the parent did not keep the punishment, right? I mean there was still a punishment, just not the one he told them they would get. That is what's confusing me.

I have a book at home called The Seeker's Guide to Reading the Bible: A Catholic View. Give it a try. There are other similar books. They are short, maybe 200 pages usually less. They help set one's expectations.

The Bible is all around us. People hear Scripture readings in church. Many western countries have Good Samaritan (Luke 10) laws, people say "welcome home the Prodigal Son" (Luke 15), and look for the Promised Land (Exodus 3, Hebrews 11). Some biblical passages have become popular maxims, such as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Matthew 7:12)," "Thou shalt not steal (Exodus 20:15), and "love thy neighbour" (Matthew 22:39).

Make reading the Bible part of your daily prayer life. Reading the scriptures helps people to grow deeper in their relationship with God and come to understand their place in the community God has called them to in himself. But always keep in mind that reading the Bible is not like reading a novel or a history book. It should begin with a prayer asking the Holy Spirit to open your mind to hear what God says. Scripture reading should end with a prayer that the things that God said will bear fruit in your life, helping you to become more like Jesus and more faithful to God.

 

[JPPT1974]

The Bible is not just a book to read. It is God's Word. There are a lot of many authors. But the main one is God. And that it is THE Book of all Books. It is or should be all of your Christian walk as well as that of spending time in prayer. As well as not just a book of history but how the world came to be and how we needed salvation in Christ hence the NT!

 

[Brighten04]

The Bible is not just a book to read. It is God's Word. There are a lot of many authors. But the main one is God. And that it is THE Book of all Books. It is or should be all of your Christian walk as well as that of spending time in prayer. As well as not just a book of history but how the world came to be and how we needed salvation in Christ hence the NT!

Amen! It is my plumb line for all truth.

 

[bennaks]

Thank you all for your answers and valuable advice. I've definatley learned a lot from your replies. I'll keep my other questions for later because I have to study for my upcoming usmle test.

Thanks again everyone for your time and contribution.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you all for your answers and valuable advice. I've definatley learned a lot from your replies. I'll keep my other questions for later because I have to study for my upcoming usmle test.

Thanks again everyone for your time and contribution.

What is a usmle test?

 

[bennaks]

United States Medical Licensing Examination. It's a three step exam. I'm taking the first.

 

[MoreCoffee]

United States Medical Licensing Examination. It's a three step exam. I'm taking the first.

Study and work hard. I hope you do well.

 

[Brighten04]

United States Medical Licensing Examination. It's a three step exam. I'm taking the first.

You will pass with flying colors!:wave:

 

[bennaks]

Study and work hard. I hope you do well.

I will. Thank you!

You will pass with flying colors!:wave:

God willing. Thanks!

 

[tango]

Hello,

So this is my first post here...

Hi bennaks, and welcome to the forum!

Thanks for posting your question, questions like yours are the reason we have the "Ask a Christian" forum here. So, on to your questions...


Firstly, before the Fall Adam and Eve were recorded as being naked but "not ashamed". So it's not so much that they didn't know they were naked, more that they were OK with being naked. I guess you could loosely liken it to the way a child will happily run around on the beach with no clothes on, fully aware they have no clothes on, probably loving the fact they have no clothes on, yet being unaware that in years to come they won't feel quite so carefree about being naked in front of strangers. Then, once they ate the forbidden fruit, they realised they had done wrong, they were suddenly ashamed at being naked, and so they covered themselves.

Albert Barnes' commentary puts it like this:

Certain immediate effects of the act are here stated. This cannot mean literally that they were blind up to this moment; for Adam, no doubt, saw the tree in the garden concerning which he received a command, the animals which he named, and the woman whom he recognized as bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. And of the woman it is affirmed that she saw that the tree possessed certain qualities, one of which at least was conspicuous to the eye.
It must therefore mean that a new aspect was presented by things on the commission of the first offence. As soon as the transgression is actually over, the sense of the wrongfulness of the act rushes on the mind. The displeasure of the great Being whose command has been disobeyed, the irretrievable loss which follows sin, the shame of being looked upon by the bystanders as a guilty thing, crowd upon the view. All nature, every single creature, seems now a witness of their guilt and shame, a condemning judge, an agent of the divine vengeance. Such is the knowledge of good and evil they have acquired by their fall from obedience - such is the opening of the eye which has requited their wrong-doing. What a different scene had once presented itself to the eyes of innocence! All had been friendly. All nature had bowed in willing obedience to the lords of the earth. Neither the sense nor the reality of danger had ever disturbed the tranquility of their pure minds.
They knew that they were naked. - This second effect results immediately from the consciousness of guilt. They now take notice that their guilty persons are exposed to view, and they shrink from the glance of every condemning eye. They imagine there is a witness of their guilt in every creature, and they conceive the abhorrence which it must produce in the spectator. In their infantile experience they endeavor to hide their persons, which they feel to be suffused all over with the blush of shame.


As a slight aside, it's interesting to see what Eve did during her interaction with the serpent.

Originally God told them that they could eat of any tree except the one tree (Gen 2:16-17).
The serpent put it to Eve, "Did God really say you couldn't eat from any trees? (Gen 3:1) - note here the serpent distorted God's word, to make God look like some kind of killjoy.
Eve replied that they may eat of anything, but must not eat nor touch the forbidden fruit (Gen 3:2-3, italics mine) - here Eve took God's word and expanded on it. God never said they mustn't touch the fruit, merely that they mustn't eat it.

If we roll back to the second half of Gen 2 we see God telling Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit and only later making Eve, so presumably Adam would have told Eve not to eat the fruit. Whether Eve took Adam's word and embellished it, or whether Adam embellished what God had told him, isn't mentioned in the text. But either way God never said they weren't to touch the fruit.


As far as the whole "you shall surely die" matter, it's clear that Adam and Eve didn't die right there and then upon eating the forbidden fruit - indeed they went on to produce children. However, Gen 3:23-24 shows how God drove them out of the garden so they couldn't partake of the Tree of Life any more so that they wouldn't live forever. So on that basis they arguably went from being immortal to being mortal, the very day they ate the fruit.



Regarding your question of whether knowledge of good and evil is productive or not, I think it depends on just how we interpret that word "knowledge". You are quite right that a CT scanner cannot be considered to be a "good" scanner because it works all day without complaint or because it never throws a false positive or a false negative because it's feeling mischievous - it's inanimate and has no capacity to choose. If we think of "knowledge of good and evil" as being the knowledge that the option to do evil exists, then your question becomes very difficult to answer because obedience is worth nothing unless the option to disobey is present. In that regard Adam and Eve had the option to disobey, and therefore however long it was before they actually ate the forbidden fruit was a period during which they freely obeyed God's command even though the option to disobey was present and readily available.

If we regard "knowledge of good and evil" as being knowledge of the mechanics of evil, rather than the existence of evil, I think the problem comes into clearer focus. For instance, when I was a child my parents warned me about getting into the car with strange men. At the time all I needed to know was that doing so was dangerous - I didn't need to know the gory details of exactly what might happen to me and even if it had been explained I probably wouldn't have understood. As a 5-year-old boy too much information would probably have made it more likely I would disobey, simply because I probably wouldn't understand why anyone would want to do such things to anyone. Now, as an adult, I have a far greater understanding of the specific dangers and the specific consequences of getting into a stranger's car.

Sticking with this kind of subject matter, the average 9-year-old boy probably wouldn't look at his 6-year-old sister with any form of lust. He knows it's within his power to hurt her - she's his little sister after all and he's probably used to pushing her around. But what happens if that boy is exposed to hardcore pornography and starts to see women and girls as little more than toys for male enjoyment? He gains a more detailed knowledge of good and evil (specifically evil) and may be tempted to abuse her in that way. He always had the knowledge of evil in the sense that he knew he was bigger and stronger, but adding this more specific knowledge of evil can cause so much more harm.



I realise you're studying so don't worry if you don't get back to the forum for a while. I hope your exams go well!

 

[Cassia]

When you get to the part where it says man was created first crossreferenced with Paul's logic then maybe you can tell us what is meant that the animals were created before male. Do you see that as a progress in developement or a resort to previous in light of the progression of raw to culmination of mankind?