False teachers

[tango]

Have you studied the Bible on exactly what it says about speaking in tongues?

Tell us all what is unbiblical about tongues.

Show us with verse where it is false teaching.

Tell us about the Spiritual Gifts using scripture.

All I ever see posted are trite answers with no substance.

I want to know where your foundation for your statements lies.

Here's the thing. The gift of tongues clearly is mentioned in Scripture, but that doesn't mean someone standing up and saying "shundai, shundai, kushanda, kushanda" is manifesting a gift of the Spirit. Anyone can raise their hands and spew forth a stream of gibberish which means nothing. Anyone can get together with someone else to provide the "interpretation" that sounds suitably spiritual while they both know it's just a show. Perhaps that's why Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. There's not much humility in the "hey, look, I'm speaking in tongues too" proclamations, and where tongues are paired with humility the chances are you'll be dealing with someone who prays in private (or in smaller, more spiritually intimate settings) using tongues, so that few people (if indeed anyone at all) knows about what they are doing.

The gift of prophecy is clearly mentioned in Scripture (along with counterexamples of false prophecy and warnings to test things), but that doesn't mean that the kind of garbage peddled on sites like the Elijah List is anything to do with prophecy. Anyone can utter a stream of fine-sounding words promising jam tomorrow, throw in several mentions that "God told me", "the Spirit showed me", "an angel had me pen these words" or whatever else, and it isn't prophecy. Most of the time the futile jabbering is sufficiently vague that it can't be sensibly tested because the author can just hide behind "it's for another season" and the fact that some of Daniel's visions have yet to come to pass. Anyone can utter some spiritual sounding words that sound prophetic but are really pretty generic. I once heard a lady talking to a visiting preacher and say how she could see a scroll over him and explained how it meant he had ingested God's word and let it get inside of him. It's easy to be underwhelmed, it's a pretty safe bet that someone preaching in church might have spent time studying Scripture in the days leading up to their sermon.

And the trouble is that instances of abuse tar the genuine. One doesn't have to see too many fakes before they become cynical towards what is genuine. Look at the prosperity preachers who live in huge mansions, presumably paid for by money given to them by those who swallowed the line they were peddling. How many people look at the likes of Joel Osteen in his however-many-thousand-square-foot-mansion and assume that ministers passing the plate are on the make? How many people look at the high profile preachers strutting their stuff on TV in a $2500 suit and $1000 shoes, and don't see the minister of the local church who drives a 15-year-old car because that's what he can afford, and prays every day that it will last another week because he doesn't have the money to replace it?

 

[Alithis]

Here's the thing. The gift of tongues clearly is mentioned in Scripture, but that doesn't mean someone standing up and saying "shundai, shundai, kushanda, kushanda" is manifesting a gift of the Spirit. Anyone can raise their hands and spew forth a stream of gibberish which means nothing. Anyone can get together with someone else to provide the "interpretation" that sounds suitably spiritual while they both know it's just a show. Perhaps that's why Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. There's not much humility in the "hey, look, I'm speaking in tongues too" proclamations, and where tongues are paired with humility the chances are you'll be dealing with someone who prays in private (or in smaller, more spiritually intimate settings) using tongues, so that few people (if indeed anyone at all) knows about what they are doing.

The gift of prophecy is clearly mentioned in Scripture (along with counterexamples of false prophecy and warnings to test things), but that doesn't mean that the kind of garbage peddled on sites like the Elijah List is anything to do with prophecy. Anyone can utter a stream of fine-sounding words promising jam tomorrow, throw in several mentions that "God told me", "the Spirit showed me", "an angel had me pen these words" or whatever else, and it isn't prophecy. Most of the time the futile jabbering is sufficiently vague that it can't be sensibly tested because the author can just hide behind "it's for another season" and the fact that some of Daniel's visions have yet to come to pass. Anyone can utter some spiritual sounding words that sound prophetic but are really pretty generic. I once heard a lady talking to a visiting preacher and say how she could see a scroll over him and explained how it meant he had ingested God's word and let it get inside of him. It's easy to be underwhelmed, it's a pretty safe bet that someone preaching in church might have spent time studying Scripture in the days leading up to their sermon.

And the trouble is that instances of abuse tar the genuine. One doesn't have to see too many fakes before they become cynical towards what is genuine. Look at the prosperity preachers who live in huge mansions, presumably paid for by money given to them by those who swallowed the line they were peddling. How many people look at the likes of Joel Osteen in his however-many-thousand-square-foot-mansion and assume that ministers passing the plate are on the make? How many people look at the high profile preachers strutting their stuff on TV in a $2500 suit and $1000 shoes, and don't see the minister of the local church who drives a 15-year-old car because that's what he can afford, and prays every day that it will last another week because he doesn't have the money to replace it?

but that doesn't mean someone standing up and saying "shundai, shundai, kushanda, kushanda" is manifesting a gift of the Spirit.

- it does not mean they are not either .. so the judgment is carnal in nature . the judgment cannot be trusted .

as to the rest - i say again.. the ability to speak in tongues is not a validation of everything a person does or says .. so again. we need to separate the gift from the person.

 

[tango]

- it does not mean they are not either .. so the judgment is carnal in nature . the judgment cannot be trusted .

Really?

1Co 12:10 "... to another discerning of spirits ... "

Writing off a judgment as "carnal" is little more than saying "my view trumps your view". If one says it is good and another says it is bad, what happens then? It's enough to make a man wish there were some kind of objective yardstick we might use.

as to the rest - i say again.. the ability to speak in tongues is not a validation of everything a person does or says .. so again. we need to separate the gift from the person.

I'm not disputing that, especially when "the ability to speak in tongues" is itself the subject of some debate.

If someone has a genuine gift of speaking in tongues it doesn't validate everything they do. If someone is faking the gift of tongues it calls their honesty into question and therefore casts doubt over just about anything else they do.

 

[Alithis]

This thread is about false teachers. I made an accurate observation. I just so happens that a good portion of those who support these demonstrably false teachers also support speaking in tongues. It has also been demonstrated that those who speak in tongues cannot support the practice biblically or historically.

I'm qualified to make those observations.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

except aagin you refer to a handful of people. certain teachers .. not the millions who move in the gits and have nothing to do with them -and you ascribe evil to the gifts of the holy Spirit . you should not you must separate the gifts from the person who has the gifting.. again and again like a broken record i say.. the gifting is not an automatic validation of everything a person does or says .

 

[Hammster]

- it does not mean they are not either .. so the judgment is carnal in nature . the judgment cannot be trusted .

as to the rest - i say again.. the ability to speak in tongues is not a validation of everything a person does or says .. so again. we need to separate the gift from the person.

And I say again that there's been no biblical support for what passes as tongues these days. It's just as false as the "teachers" who promote them.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

except aagin you refer to a handful of people. certain teachers .. not the millions who move in the gits and have nothing to do with them -and you ascribe evil to the gifts of the holy Spirit . you should not you must separate the gifts from the person who has the gifting.. again and again like a broken record i say.. the gifting is not an automatic validation of everything a person does or says .

I have never ascribed evil to any gift of the Spirit. Please retract that statement.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[psalms 91]

If this has turned into a continuation of the other thread on toungues I will ask the originator if they wount connsider closing this one as well, we all know it, you dont like charasmatic teachers or toungues. I think this has been discussed to eternity here. This is exactly why deniomination areas were set up, I see no need for one at this point but I am certainly understanding as to why the need is there

 

[Hammster]

If this has turned into a continuation of the other thread on toungues I will ask the originator if they wount connsider closing this one as well, we all know it, you dont like charasmatic teachers or toungues. I think this has been discussed to eternity here. This is exactly why deniomination areas were set up, I see no need for one at this point but I am certainly understanding as to why the need is there

You don't need to participate. You are free not to.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hebrews 11]

Scripture please ,confirming what supports your assumption.

Or if you speak in tongues yourself?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Have we discovered all the false teachers yet? :nana:

 

[Hebrews 11]

My question was for another person,but if he is content with your answer fine by me.

To answer the last part of your post:
Does a 15 year old car bring you closer to God?

Does being humble before men justify you before God?

Has God appointed watchdogs to let him know the hearts of men pertaining to material possessions?

Billy Graham said quote : I never have seen u hauls at funerals]

Why be concerned who has what?

Have you ever considered those who sow much also reap much?

For all you know about a 2000 dollar suit it could have been given to the Preacher.

I know a Baptist Preacher driving a brand new top of the line Ford pickup.
A member just gave him the keys and thanked him.

What's he to do be caught in humble pride and give it away?

He drives it every day accepting the blessing he was given.

When you raise a billion dollars to spread the Gospel,do you think the workman is worth his hire?
\
If you have a heart for missions you have the means to support them.
Faith without works is dead.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God is the path to being closer to God; a flashy car, big house, large income will not substitute for justice and mercy.

the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done - Matthew 23:23

 

[Hammster]

Scripture please ,confirming what supports your assumption.

Or if you speak in tongues yourself?

You want me to provide scripture that says false teachers are bad? What exactly do you want?

(And quoting a person helps to determine whom you are addressing.)


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

Have we discovered all the false teachers yet? :nana:

Nope. Let's list more to avoid

 

[tango]

Scripture please ,confirming what supports your assumption.

Or if you speak in tongues yourself?

Isn't this the thread about false teachers? The tongues thread got locked.

 

[tango]

My question was for another person,but if he is content with your answer fine by me.

To answer the last part of your post:
Does a 15 year old car bring you closer to God?

If anyone suggested it did I must have missed it. If you're referring to something I said about old cars the point of that was that I feel hugely disinclined to give money if it's just going to get used to buy the preacher a new Mercedes. I'll buy myself a Mercedes before I put money in the collection so someone else can have a Mercedes.

Does being humble before men justify you before God?

No, but pride before men is likely to indicate an underlying issue. By their fruits shall ye know them, and all that.

Has God appointed watchdogs to let him know the hearts of men pertaining to material possessions?

Again I'm not aware of anyone suggesting he did. But once again I'm not going to give money to support a man's ministry if that man is visibly living a lifestyle I can't possible hope to attain for myself through my own efforts. It's really no different to me not giving money to a "charity" that soaks up huge amounts of donations in administration. If I give money to feed the hungry I want the money spent on food, not the chief executive's chauffeur, fancy offices in a desirable part of an expensive town, or whatever else isn't directly involved in getting food into the mouths of those that need it.

I remember some guy saying something about our hearts being where our treasure is.

Billy Graham said quote : I never have seen u hauls at funerals]

Why be concerned who has what?

Because if I'm funding it I need to be a good steward of what has been entrusted to me. Handing it over to a guy on TV in a $2000 suit and $1000 shoes doesn't seem like good stewardship to me.

Have you ever considered those who sow much also reap much?

Of course, but it's about sowing wisely. If I give $100,000 to a guy with no idea whether he's going to spend $99,900 to feed the hungry and $100 in expenses to cover the fuel he used to get the food, or $100 to feed the hungry and $99,900 on a shiny new car for himself can I possibly claim to be a good steward? I'm doing little more than the servant who buried his talent - all I'm doing is shrugging and figuring Someone Else can deal with it all.

For all you know about a 2000 dollar suit it could have been given to the Preacher.

... which is entirely possible. It still doesn't mean that wearing it while claiming to be in desperate need sends the right message.

I know a Baptist Preacher driving a brand new top of the line Ford pickup.
A member just gave him the keys and thanked him.

Good for him. I imagine those around him will see the fruits of his life and know what was going on. Those are the ones who will support his work. Truth be told if there were more people working in local mission and fewer people looking to create international "ministries" appealing to total strangers for money we'd have more people like the man you described and fewer people like Robert Schuller.

When you raise a billion dollars to spread the Gospel,do you think the workman is worth his hire?

Who said anything about his hire? We're not talking about people working here, we're talking about TV preachers who talk about how desperately they need money when the image they present suggests the exact opposite. If you raise a billion dollars to spread the gospel isn't your reward in heaven? Do you need to take a commission from the money you raised to do God's work?

Those who give are free to give to whatever causes they wish to give - if they worked for their money they are free to give it as a gift to someone who fancies washing their new Lamborghini with vintage Dom Perignon. That doesn't mean it's good stewardship of the money, any more than it's good stewardship to throw a huge party that involves filling the swimming pool with Dom Perignon just for the sake of it.

If you have a heart for missions you have the means to support them.
Faith without works is dead.

... which has nothing to do with whether preachers should get rich on the back of money given to their ministries.

 

[Hebrews 11]

One thing I detest is TV Preachers that beg money,say they are going off the air,if they don't get this amount.
But there are worse than that,Some promise prayers will be answered if you give so much.
Some try to panic people by end times fear to sell survival food.

There is nothing wrong with supporting a ministry,or buying material.
God is not a counterfeiter he does not throw cash down from the Heavens.
Since there are huge cost involved in air time and missions,the larger the ministry the larger the cost of doing business.
My examples that I mentioned I detest,are a form of manipulation that is a type of witchcraft.

There is nothing wrong with wealth or financial prosperity,as a matter of fact if people were completely honest they want the same thing.

If not they would live under a bridge,and eat whatever washed up.

It is the methods we use for our provision that God will Judge.
If your Heart is in Christ I could careless how big your house is,because in Christ is his righteousness.

So I hope we can find some common ground here on the habits of false teachers.

 

[Hebrews 11]

I suppose a list of Bible verses point by point that relate to, everyone and every false teaching to support your accusations of them.

Excluding religion that denies Christ being the Son of God.

So far you have named Kenneth Copeland,and stated his belief that Christ suffered in Hell.
I understand his logic behind this statement,Copeland believes since Christ walked as a man he had to go to Hell like a man because he died for our sins.
The error is our sins not his,Christ was sinless,and reconciled with the Father at his death.

Kenneth Copeland is a great man of God and is anointed by God to Preach,but he is a man not infallible.
No Preacher ever was,this is why we worship God through Christ not Kenneth Copeland or John Calvin.

 

[Hammster]

I suppose a list of Bible verses point by point that relate to, everyone and every false teaching to support your accusations of them.

Excluding religion that denies Christ being the Son of God.

So far you have named Kenneth Copeland,and stated his belief that Christ suffered in Hell.
I understand his logic behind this statement,Copeland believes since Christ walked as a man he had to go to Hell like a man because he died for our sins.
The error is our sins not his,Christ was sinless,and reconciled with the Father at his death.

Kenneth Copeland is a great man of God and is anointed by God to Preach,but he is a man not infallible.
No Preacher ever was,this is why we worship God through Christ not Kenneth Copeland or John Calvin.

He's just like all the other health and wealth teachers. They say Christ suffered in hell. They talk gibberish and call it tongues. If you have enough faith you can be healthy and wealthy.

It's all blasphemy.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #48 tango stated:

The Scriptures are an objective standard. The wisdom of the church is certainly worth considering but over the centuries some churches seem to have elevated tradition to the status of theology, which is a bad thing.

I would appreciate people's thoughts on which churches (denominations) actually do not contain some form of tradition that has been elevated to the status of theology.

Those who respond might also like to share their definition of “tradition”, and when it started creeping in.




(By the way, I was introduced by bill 1 2 3 1, but no variation I tried of that ID during the registration process was accepted.)