What does it mean when someone says they weren't saved in the first place?

MoreCoffee

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WOW! So it was all you? That is very interesting.
WOW! I never said what you claim.

No it was not all me. Why do you so persistently misrepresent what I write. I said previously that every good thing that any person does is done as a response to the grace given by God that enables the doing. Can't you grasp that? Surely it is obvious from the many passages of holy scripture that I posted. It is not good to say what you say if you have read what I've written. It's frustrating to be misrepresented so persistently. So too, when you have done all these things that have been taught to you, you should say: "We are useless servants. We have done what we should have done." Luke 17:10.
 

Brighten04

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WOW! I never said what you claim.

No it was not all me. Why do you so persistently misrepresent what I write. I said previously that every good thing that any person does is done as a response to the grace given by God that enables the doing. Can't you grasp that? Surely it is obvious from the many passages of holy scripture that I posted. It is not good to say what you say if you have read what I've written. It's frustrating to be misrepresented so persistently. So too, when you have done all these things that have been taught to you, you should say: "We are useless servants. We have done what we should have done." Luke 17:10.

You post scripture, true, but what you understand from those scriptures is a puzzle to me. You say men are saved not by faith alone but by works also. Then you post scripture from James to prove that it is by faith AND works.
 

user1234

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Oh okay, yes.
Hi Rens .... You gave an okay here but you missed the fact that he changed what he said, .... Im starting to notice a pattern with this gentleman.

The same way that you did, by believing the gospel, by expressing faith in Jesus Christ, by being baptised, by partaking in the holy Eucharist, by living among other Christians in a community of faith as Christ's body and Church.
This is quite an extensive list on how to be born-again. Are these all pre-requisites or requirements, and is this all of them?

You post scripture, true, but what you understand from those scriptures is a puzzle to me. You say men are saved not by faith alone but by works also. Then you post scripture from James to prove that it is by faith AND works.
I see your point, Brighton04 ...
Hi, MoreCoffee, ...... listen friend, please. This is not a personal attack or any kind of piling on. And I'm new here so I want to tread lightly, I dont mean any offense, but it really does seem like you will post a statement, (and do so rather matter-of-factly, not by saying 'in my opinion' or something like that).....

.....And then a person will come to an obvious conclusion and comment , BASED ON YOUR POST, and then you come back with saying you're misrepresented, but you then proceed to change what you said.

That is proven out by the way ppl often say, 'Okay, but that's not what you said the first time' and the cycle continues.
There seems to be some pretty intelligent ppl here, and I'm guessing they generally understand what they're reading the first time, or are at least gracious and smart enough to ask for an explanation if they're not sure.

But much of what you say and the positions you take seem plain enough until someone comments, and you're back to claiming you're being misrepresented again, and making the person who replied seem like they're doing so deliberately just to attack you.

I really don't see that happening though, .... in my opinion, ppl are just taking what you say, and commenting or even challenging it, generally with scripture. I'm just hoping you can see that ppl arent attacking YOU personally, but if they read things you post, and find them disagreeing with scripture, or the position on it, they are going to challenge your post and try to reason towards the truth.

There doesn't seem to be any agenda to try to misrepresent you, only at times it appears you misrepresent yourself. I'm guessing pretty much everyone here wants the same Main things, and that's to see Jesus lifted up and get the praise and glory He's due, and to see people saved and growing in His grace and love and truth.

You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone here, and there will be disagreements, but most ppl here are just trying to convey the truth, not misrepresent another's position, .... certainly not on purpose.
So I included Brighten04's post here because it's a good example of the confusion some ppl get trying to understand your posts or positions.

That's all. God bless you.
 

MoreCoffee

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You post scripture, true, but what you understand from those scriptures is a puzzle to me. You say men are saved not by faith alone but by works also. Then you post scripture from James to prove that it is by faith AND works.

James says it in holy scripture. Did you not notice it. He wrote Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works [SUP]James 2:21[/SUP]. However I said repeatedly and explicitly that no one is saved by works but I guess you didn't read that.
I do not know any Church that teaches salvation by works, not now and not in the past but I do know ignorant people who teach something like it and of denominations and independent groups and semi-Christian sects that teach things that sound like it. The Catholic Church teaches - and always has taught - that salvation comes from God as an act of God's grace in Jesus Christ. Nobody will ever be saved by their own efforts but everybody who is called by God turns from their sins and walks with God according to the graces given to them by God and according to their desire to please God [SUP](Php 2:12-13)[/SUP].
So then, my loved ones, as you have at all times done what I say, not only when I am present, but now much more when I am not with you, give yourselves to working out your salvation with fear in your hearts; For it is God who is the cause of your desires and of your acts, for his good pleasure. Do all things without protests and arguments; So that you may be holy and gentle, children of God without sin in a twisted and foolish generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world, Offering the word of life; so that I may have glory in you in the day of Christ, because my running was not for nothing and my work was not without effect. And even if I am offered like a drink offering, giving myself for the cause and work of your faith, I am glad and have joy with you all: And in the same way do you be glad and have a part in my joy. [SUP]Philippians 2:12-18[/SUP]​
Some people (not me) appear to be allergic to good works in their theology and write as if good works are some horrible curse that contaminates the gospel when the truth is that Christians are called to a life of good works in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ [SUP](John 14:15; 15:10)[/SUP]. I guess some kinds of theology makes them write that way and makes them oppose every expression of faith that includes the necessity of good works in the life of the faithful who will obtain salvation through faith and good works as James says in his letter
"What use is it, my brothers, for a man to say that he has faith, if he does nothing? will such a faith give him salvation? If a brother or a sister is without clothing and in need of the day's food, And one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warm and full of food; but you do not give them the things of which their bodies have need, what profit is there in this? Even so faith without works is dead. But a man may say, You have faith and I have works; let me see your faith without your works, and I will make my faith clear to you by my works. You have the belief that God is one, and you do well: the evil spirits have the same belief, shaking with fear. Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works is of no use? Was not the righteousness of Abraham our father judged by his works, when he made an offering of Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was helping his works and was made complete by them; And the holy Writings were put into effect which said, And Abraham had faith in God and it was put to his account as righteousness; and he was named the friend of God. You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only. And in the same way, was not the righteousness of Rahab, the loose woman, judged by her works, when she took into her house those who were sent and let them go out by another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead. [SUP]James 2:14-26[/SUP]"​
In the Catechism of the Council of Trent it's written that
"Justifying Grace

But the grace of justification, which signs us with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,' transcends all His other most ample gifts. It unites us to God in the closest bonds of love, lights up within us the sacred flame of piety, forms us to newness of life, renders us partakers of the divine nature, and enables us to be called and really to be the sons of God.
"

...

"All The Sacraments Signify Something Present, Something Past, Something Future:

This applies to all the Sacraments; for all of them declare not only our sanctity and justification, but also two other things most intimately connected with sanctification, namely, the Passion of Christ our Redeemer, which is the source of our sanctification, and also eternal life and heavenly bliss, which are the end of sanctification. Such, then, being the nature of all the Sacraments, holy Doctors justly hold that each of them has a threefold significance: they remind us of something past; they indicate and point out something present; they foretell something future.

Nor should it be supposed that this teaching of the Doctors is unsupported by the testimony of Holy Scripture. When the Apostle says: All we who are baptised in Christ Jesus, are baptised in his death, he gives us clearly to understand that Baptism is called a sign, because it reminds us of the death and Passion of our Lord. When he says, We are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so, we also may walk in newness of life, he also clearly shows that Baptism is a sign which indicates the infusion of divine grace into our souls, which enables us to lead a new life and to perform all the duties of true piety with ease and cheerfulness. Finally, when he adds: If we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection, he teaches that Baptism clearly foreshadows eternal life also, which we are to reach through its efficacy.
"​
These things were written soon after the beginning of the Protestant revolt and are drawn from Catholic Church teaching that had already existed for many centuries yet the Protesters did not want any part of the Catholic Church and created their own denominations which soon found themselves splitting into yet more denominations. Today there are many Lutheran denominations and many Calvinist denominations each with their own special emphases on this and that part of Martin Luther's teaching and John Calvin's teaching and some created new ideas never expressed by Martin Luther or John Calvin. And there are Baptists who didn't like a great number of the things taught by Martin Luther nor did they like a good number of the teachings of John Calvin. Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Anglicans, Independents, and a host of others exist now; some rejecting this teaching while others reject that teaching in the overall teaching of Martin Luther and the teachings of John Calvin. It may have been inevitable that the Catholic Church would be rent apart by schisms and heresies in the sixteenth century, and who can say what may have happened had it not been so? The Catholic Church of that time was itself troubled by some corrupt bishops and some corrupt priests both groups having some members appointed by wealthy and powerful people whose used political and military power to impose their will on the Church in their jurisdiction and some very senior clerics - yes even as senior as some of the popes of those days - were corrupt too. So we have a divided Christianity today in which old battles - long since repudiated by the Catholic Church and also by some (or many) Protestant denominations - are still fought in the pages of internet forums and in other places (such as books, comics and pamphlets).

 

Rens

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Josiah

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Well I dont know. I've never been crazy about the idea of telling someone they arent really saved..i mean it justs sounds so judgemental and rude to me....like who really even knows the truth in that..its sorta like you telling me your favorite color is blue and me going "nuh uh, you don't really like blue"


My position is that justification (narrow) is a case of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Thus, where faith is in CHRIST as the Savior, there IS salvation (in this sense).

IMO, the issue of how big, how strong, how good, how genuine our faith is is not the issue - but rather the OBJECT of that faith - Jesus Christ as THE Savior. IMO, where one professes Christ - we can say that one is saved, when our faith in in CHRIST as the Savior (even if such faith is as small as a mustard seed, even if such faith struggles) then I think we can be assured we have salvation. But I agree with you, hotrhymez, I'm pretty reluntant to say that anyone is damned.


This whole TERRIBLE issue of "But your faith in Christ wasn't/isn't genuine! It wasn't/isn't real, big enough, good enough! All that is a violation of the belief that Jesus is the Savior because it replaces the issue of Jesus (the object of faith) with self (who has good enough faith).


Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah
 

Wilhemena

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Some people act like you can become unborn if you sin after you have been born again.

I agree with this entirely and have seen it way too much in my long life where we find that people look down upon those who sin as if they never committed any themselves. Does putting doubt on someone else's salvation give their own salvation more security because they suffer less struggles in their lives and are actually not looking at the gospel message as one of salvation?
 
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