Antihistamines for works.

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Antihistamines for works are a necessity in theological discussions because some folk appear to be allergic to good works in any theological discussion.

James says "faith without works is dead" and folk say "he really means that mere intellectual assent not faith". Or when he says "see, we are justified by works and not by faith alone" they say "he doesn't mean justification before God he really means justification before men". They say these things because they are dead scared of works playing any role in salvation and/or justification. In effect their theology made them allergic to good works.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We trust in someone's works...but not ours ;) It's the works done by Jesus.

OUR works benefit our neighbors and show love to them and to God.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We trust in someone's works...but not ours ;) It's the works done by Jesus.

OUR works benefit our neighbors and show love to them and to God.

Abraham's work in taking his son to be sacrificed was not for others to see nor was it done by Jesus on Abraham's behalf yet it is the example that James uses in constructing his argument that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? [SUP]James 2:21-24[/SUP]​
 

Rens

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
4,754
Age
54
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
In Relationship
Antihistamines for works are a necessity in theological discussions because some folk appear to be allergic to good works in any theological discussion.

James says "faith without works is dead" and folk say "he really means that mere intellectual assent not faith". Or when he says "see, we are justified by works and not by faith alone" they say "he doesn't mean justification before God he really means justification before men". They say these things because they are dead scared of works playing any role in salvation and/or justification. In effect their theology made them allergic to good works.

Lol I saw the title and thought it was about vitamins to perform better at the office.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Abraham's work in taking his son to be sacrificed was not for others to see nor was it done by Jesus on Abraham's behalf yet it is the example that James uses in constructing his argument that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? [SUP]James 2:21-24[/SUP]​
Obedience is the key, we are to be obedient and those who are not well
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Obedience is the key, we are to be obedient and those who are not well

I believe that most of the people who complain about good works try to do them but they cannot give them any place in their theory of salvation because they think it is by faith alone without works of any kind. They try to do good works but they make a way of escape by proclaiming that they do not play any role in salvation. It's part of their theological tradition.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Our works do not contribute to our salvation. We trust in Jesus alone. Our works are done because we have faith. We cannot possibly contribute.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
They say these things because they are dead scared of works playing any role in salvation and/or justification. In effect their theology made them allergic to good works.

I do not know any Church that teaches salvation by works,
http://www.christianityhaven.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=79371

People are not afraid of works playing any role in their salvation because they KNOW their works do not play any part. Even you stated that you do not know any Church that teaches salvation by works.

Works are because we have salvation. Works can be a testimony of our faith.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
http://www.christianityhaven.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=79371

People are not afraid of works playing any role in their salvation because they KNOW their works do not play any part. Even you stated that you do not know any Church that teaches salvation by works.

Works are because we have salvation. Works can be a testimony of our faith.

Did you like the linked post?

I do not know any Church that teaches salvation by works, not now and not in the past but I do know ignorant people who teach something like it and of denominations and independent groups and semi-Christian sects that teach things that sound like it. The Catholic Church teaches - and always has taught - that salvation comes from God as an act of God's grace in Jesus Christ. Nobody will ever be saved by their own efforts but everybody who is called by God turns from their sins and walks with God according to the graces given to them by God and according to their desire to please God [SUP](Php 2:12-13)[/SUP].
So then, my loved ones, as you have at all times done what I say, not only when I am present, but now much more when I am not with you, give yourselves to working out your salvation with fear in your hearts; For it is God who is the cause of your desires and of your acts, for his good pleasure. Do all things without protests and arguments; So that you may be holy and gentle, children of God without sin in a twisted and foolish generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world, Offering the word of life; so that I may have glory in you in the day of Christ, because my running was not for nothing and my work was not without effect. And even if I am offered like a drink offering, giving myself for the cause and work of your faith, I am glad and have joy with you all: And in the same way do you be glad and have a part in my joy. [SUP]Philippians 2:12-18[/SUP]​
Some people (not me) appear to be allergic to good works in their theology and write as if good works are some horrible curse that contaminates the gospel when the truth is that Christians are called to a life of good works in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ [SUP](John 14:15; 15:10)[/SUP]. I guess some kinds of theology makes them write that way and makes them oppose every expression of faith that includes the necessity of good works in the life of the faithful who will obtain salvation through faith and good works as James says in his letter
"What use is it, my brothers, for a man to say that he has faith, if he does nothing? will such a faith give him salvation? If a brother or a sister is without clothing and in need of the day's food, And one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warm and full of food; but you do not give them the things of which their bodies have need, what profit is there in this? Even so faith without works is dead. But a man may say, You have faith and I have works; let me see your faith without your works, and I will make my faith clear to you by my works. You have the belief that God is one, and you do well: the evil spirits have the same belief, shaking with fear. Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works is of no use? Was not the righteousness of Abraham our father judged by his works, when he made an offering of Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was helping his works and was made complete by them; And the holy Writings were put into effect which said, And Abraham had faith in God and it was put to his account as righteousness; and he was named the friend of God. You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only. And in the same way, was not the righteousness of Rahab, the loose woman, judged by her works, when she took into her house those who were sent and let them go out by another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead. [SUP]James 2:14-26[/SUP]"​
In the Catechism of the Council of Trent it's written that
"Justifying Grace

But the grace of justification, which signs us with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,' transcends all His other most ample gifts. It unites us to God in the closest bonds of love, lights up within us the sacred flame of piety, forms us to newness of life, renders us partakers of the divine nature, and enables us to be called and really to be the sons of God.
"

...

"All The Sacraments Signify Something Present, Something Past, Something Future:

This applies to all the Sacraments; for all of them declare not only our sanctity and justification, but also two other things most intimately connected with sanctification, namely, the Passion of Christ our Redeemer, which is the source of our sanctification, and also eternal life and heavenly bliss, which are the end of sanctification. Such, then, being the nature of all the Sacraments, holy Doctors justly hold that each of them has a threefold significance: they remind us of something past; they indicate and point out something present; they foretell something future.

Nor should it be supposed that this teaching of the Doctors is unsupported by the testimony of Holy Scripture. When the Apostle says: All we who are baptised in Christ Jesus, are baptised in his death, he gives us clearly to understand that Baptism is called a sign, because it reminds us of the death and Passion of our Lord. When he says, We are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so, we also may walk in newness of life, he also clearly shows that Baptism is a sign which indicates the infusion of divine grace into our souls, which enables us to lead a new life and to perform all the duties of true piety with ease and cheerfulness. Finally, when he adds: If we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection, he teaches that Baptism clearly foreshadows eternal life also, which we are to reach through its efficacy.
"​
These things were written soon after the beginning of the Protestant revolt and are drawn from Catholic Church teaching that had already existed for many centuries yet the Protesters did not want any part of the Catholic Church and created their own denominations which soon found themselves splitting into yet more denominations. Today there are many Lutheran denominations and many Calvinist denominations each with their own special emphases on this and that part of Martin Luther's teaching and John Calvin's teaching and some created new ideas never expressed by Martin Luther or John Calvin. And there are Baptists who didn't like a great number of the things taught by Martin Luther nor did they like a good number of the teachings of John Calvin. Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Anglicans, Independents, and a host of others exist now; some rejecting this teaching while others reject that teaching in the overall teaching of Martin Luther and the teachings of John Calvin. It may have been inevitable that the Catholic Church would be rent apart by schisms and heresies in the sixteenth century, and who can say what may have happened had it not been so? The Catholic Church of that time was itself troubled by some corrupt bishops and some corrupt priests both groups having some members appointed by wealthy and powerful people whose used political and military power to impose their will on the Church in their jurisdiction and some very senior clerics - yes even as senior as some of the popes of those days - were corrupt too. So we have a divided Christianity today in which old battles - long since repudiated by the Catholic Church and also by some (or many) Protestant denominations - are still fought in the pages of internet forums and in other places (such as books, comics and pamphlets).
 

Brighten04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
2,188
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Protestant
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Abraham's work in taking his son to be sacrificed was not for others to see nor was it done by Jesus on Abraham's behalf yet it is the example that James uses in constructing his argument that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? [SUP]James 2:21-24[/SUP]​

Abraham BELIEVED GOD.This was accounted to him as righteousness. That he took Isaac to be sacrifice DEMONSTRATED that he BELIEVED GOD. When asked what is the work of God, Jesus said this

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It IS by faith alone that we are justified. And it is by faith in Jesus' work that we live and move, and have our being.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Abraham BELIEVED GOD.This was accounted to him as righteousness. That he took Isaac to be sacrifice DEMONSTRATED that he BELIEVED GOD. When asked what is the work of God, Jesus said this

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It IS by faith alone that we are justified. And it is by faith in Jesus' work that we live and move, and have our being.

I am wondering why you skipped what James said?
Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? [SUP]James 2:21-24[/SUP]​
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We trust in someone's works...but not ours ;) It's the works done by Jesus.

OUR works benefit our neighbors and show love to them and to God.


AMEN! It's really not rocket science.... it's just those who INSIST on making self as big as possible and Christ as little as possible will twist, confuse, blend, mix up, spin things into such a confusing (and often Hindu sounding) MESS.


In JUSTIFICATION (narrow) it's CHRIST's works that matter since Jesus is the Savior. Not self. Those who want to strip Jesus of that role (demoting him to just a possibility-maker or yet another helper) will do all they can to evade this or creatively spin it.

In SANCTIFICATION (narrow) - the lives of CHRISTIANS - it's our works that matter - empowered by God, inspired by love - as we progress in Christ-like-ness (but never achieving it).


Yes, works matter...... CHRIST'S in justification, OURS in sanctification. Don't confuse the two....


The problem is, those who reject Christ as THE (one and only) Savior (the sufficient one) will need to confuse/mix/blend Law and Gospel, Christ and self, Justification and Sanctification all to strip Christ of His role as Savior.... to lift up self rather than the Cross.

James (while he uses a word translated as "justify") is OBVIOUSLY speaking to Christians (those already justified in the narrow sense) and so this is discipleship, CHRISTIAN living, Sanctification (narrow). For CHRISTIANS, works are essential. Not to BECOME a Christian (thus rendering Jesus a joke, a waste of precious blood) but BECAUSE I'm a Christian.

It's simple... and obvious..... unless one's ego insists on twisting it horribly so as to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and glorious as possible - trying to spin Christianity so that it's like the other world religions (just with a largely irrelevant Christ put in there, for no particular reason).



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah
 

Brighten04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
2,188
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Protestant
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
AMEN! It's really not rocket science.... it's just those who INSIST on making self as big as possible and Christ as little as possible will twist, confuse, blend, mix up, spin things into such a confusing (and often Hindu sounding) MESS.


In JUSTIFICATION (narrow) it's CHRIST's works that matter since Jesus is the Savior. Not self. Those who want to strip Jesus of that role (demoting him to just a possibility-maker or yet another helper) will do all they can to evade this or creatively spin it.

In SANCTIFICATION (narrow) - the lives of CHRISTIANS - it's our works that matter - empowered by God, inspired by love - as we progress in Christ-like-ness (but never achieving it).


Yes, works matter...... CHRIST'S in justification, OURS in sanctification. Don't confuse the two....


The problem is, those who reject Christ as THE (one and only) Savior (the sufficient one) will need to confuse/mix/blend Law and Gospel, Christ and self, Justification and Sanctification all to strip Christ of His role as Savior.... to lift up self rather than the Cross.

James (while he uses a word translated as "justify") is OBVIOUSLY speaking to Christians (those already justified in the narrow sense) and so this is discipleship, CHRISTIAN living, Sanctification (narrow). For CHRISTIANS, works are essential. Not to BECOME a Christian (thus rendering Jesus a joke, a waste of precious blood) but BECAUSE I'm a Christian.

It's simple... and obvious..... unless one's ego insists on twisting it horribly so as to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and glorious as possible - trying to spin Christianity so that it's like the other world religions (just with a largely irrelevant Christ put in there, for no particular reason).



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah

Umm Hmmm, This is what I see also.
 

Brighten04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
2,188
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Protestant
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I am wondering why you skipped what James said?
Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfilment? And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? [SUP]James 2:21-24[/SUP]​


I skipped it because you want to make it an object of contention. My understanding of it and your understanding of it is different. I posted my understanding in post # 10.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,194
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I skipped it because you want to make it an object of contention. My understanding of it and your understanding of it is different. I posted my understanding in post # 10.

I want to remind everybody that it is an object of faith that can't be dismissed for the sake of keeping one's traditions.
 

TurtleHare

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2015
Messages
1,057
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I want to remind everybody that it is an object of faith that can't be dismissed for the sake of keeping one's traditions.

Didn't the Jews make the object of their faith their works instead of Jesus the one who died on the cross and you're saying that an object of your faith is your works instead of your Savior? Works are a byproduct of faith but not an object of because we don't cling at all to our works, or at least as Christians we shouldn't because if we're working for something to earn a reward that means that it's not by faith since faith has the object of the Savior who worked for you. Do you trust in your works or do you trust in your savior for your salvation and if we're not talking about salvation then why did you bring it up in your first post? I don't think that anyone is uneasy about talking about works unless it's remotely hinted at that it is connected to salvation and in that case we should turn to the one who saves us and greet him with joy and peace and know that he will bring us to do the good works he plans.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I want to remind everybody that it is an object of faith that can't be dismissed for the sake of keeping one's traditions.


For me, the object of my faith is Christ, not me. I look to the Cross, not in the mirror. It's what makes me a Christian.
 

Rens

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
4,754
Age
54
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
In Relationship
Doesn't matter cause you're dead anyway lol.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

Brighten04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
2,188
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Protestant
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
For me, the object of my faith is Christ, not me. I look to the Cross, not in the mirror. It's what makes me a Christian.


Amen! Amen! and Amen! Let the church say Amen.
 
Top Bottom