True meaning of repentance

[ImaginaryDay2]

Is that plain enough?

Yes, thank you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes in the church where I came it was taught that the devil had an opening because he offered for his kids out of fear, which was sin, so they died.
It opposes what Scripture says and is in fact just what those friends of Job said: you must have sinned.

You are right, accusing Job of wickedness is what Satan and the comforters did. It isn't what God said about Job. In fact it contradicts what God said about Job and it is contrary to the whole story in the book of Job. It misses the point of the story completely. But that is what happens when people (not me) put theology ahead of what the holy scriptures say. It makes the ones that do it oppose God despite their claims to be upholding his honour, glory, and sovereignty.

 

[user1234]

Did this debate end then?
What was it, and who won?
I was reading through the thread,
I still can't figure it out.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did this debate end then?
What was it, and who won?
I was reading through the thread,
I still can't figure it out.

I never can figure it out beyond noticing that some folk need to gainsay almost everything I write. It isn't a bad thing to gainsay what I write - sometimes I like it because it offers a chance to give more informative explanations and that may help people who read without posting - but sometimes I wish what I post was read for what it says rather than as if it were some deep-secret-and-evil Catholic conspiracy to undermine the gospel (or something).

I don't know when it will be over. From my perspective all that happens is that the same things get said over and over again.

 

[user1234]

I never can figure it out beyond noticing that some folk need to gainsay almost everything I write. It isn't a bad thing to gainsay what I write - sometimes I like it because it offers a chance to give more informative explanations and that may help people who read without posting - but sometimes I wish what I post was read for what it says rather than as if it were some deep-secret-and-evil Catholic conspiracy to undermine the gospel (or something).

I don't know when it will be over. From my perspective all that happens is that the same things get said over and over again.

Hi MoreCoffee.
GBU btw, if I havent said that already.
I guess from my perspective, (and being new here, I'm sure there's much I need to
learn), it can be a troubling discussion for some when the idea of sinlessness is brought up, especially from a Roman Catholic position, bc the doctrine of Mary and sinlessness may come to mind for some, and that can be a bone of contention, particularly for former RCatholics.

I don't know if that became part of a debate among friends, here, ..... All I know is the bible shows us that ALL of us are sinners.
And there's that passage re: Job, but since God's Word doesn't contradict itself, there must be another meaning to that passage besides Job was sinless, as you've pointed out.
I'm just still struggling to know what the point is. But, as I say, I have much to learn.

 

[TurtleHare]

Did this debate end then?
What was it, and who won?
I was reading through the thread,
I still can't figure it out.

It can't be over yet because I haven't given my 2 cents yet mwhwhahahah.

If mankind didn't sin there would be no call for repentance and that would mean there would be no need for the Savior to have died on the cross so you see that God's plan actually has a flow to it where we go from fallen to saved and repentance is right there smack dab in the middle.

 

[Josiah]

Here's what bothers me.....


Some Christians seem obsessed, driven hard, to twist everything so as to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible and (conversely) make self as big and important as possible. They are about lifting high self - while minimizing Christ. All this ("I don't sin much...... sin ain't no big deal...... I can do all I need to do (perhaps cuz God helps ME or God lowers the bar for me).... read their posts, listen to them, and there's lots and lots of me, me, me, me, me. When I read or hear this - it's like finger nails on a chalk board to me, it hits me as very fundamentally trying to destroy Christianity and its chief article: Jesus is the Savior.

See, I think it should be the exact opposite: We are to lift high the Cross and get ourselves on our knees in tears. I think it's about making Christ larger and self smaller. More of Christ, less of me. Lift high the CROSS. When I see all the light focused on JESUS - His mercy, His heart, His unconditional love, His life and death and resurrection, His work, His merits - all the light on Jesus, on the Cross - my heart rejoices. God be MERCIFUL to me - THE SINNER, the one who falls short, the one who misses the mark, the one who deserves ONLY eternal hell. I rejoice when I hear, "Christ! the Cross!"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gIK-XUfd10






.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It can't be over yet because I haven't given my 2 cents yet mwhwhahahah.

If mankind didn't sin there would be no call for repentance and that would mean there would be no need for the Savior to have died on the cross so you see that God's plan actually has a flow to it where we go from fallen to saved and repentance is right there smack dab in the middle.

But nobody said mankind doesn't sin. It's like folk want to fight against a phantom just in case it suddenly becomes real and beats the living daylights out of their theology. It's futile to fight phantoms, honest.

But really, are you saying that nobody has ever lived a sin-free period in their life? Something more than a microsecond. Maybe a few days, weeks, or years?

 

[atpollard]

But nobody said mankind doesn't sin. It's like folk want to fight against a phantom just in case it suddenly becomes real and beats the living daylights out of their theology. It's futile to fight phantoms, honest.
But really, are you saying that nobody has ever lived a sin-free period in their life? Something more than a microsecond. Maybe a few days, weeks, or years?

I don't know about 'nobody', but I know that THIS body has not gone weeks:
 ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'” [Luke 10:27]

Heck, I can't drive 20 minutes on US 19 without having an unkind thought for my 'neighbor'.
That doesn't even start to get into seeing something in a magazine or on TV and experiencing a covetous thought.

How do you know if you are loving God with ALL your heart, soul, strength and mind?
I guess you would feel no temptation for anything to drag you away from God.
Never even think 'It was a long day at work, I don't want to go to a mid week service.'
No stray thought as you pass a Hooters billboard. In fact, nothing to distract your thought from the work of God.
Never hearing a stray comment in a lunch line and thinking as you leave 'I should probably have said something'.

No sir, I can't speak for 'nobody' but I don't think I ever made 24 hours except maybe, when I was 8 years old and semi-conscious with a fever of 105. I didn't have hardly any thoughts at all at that time except being plunged into ice water was really cold. I might not have sinned that day.
Then again, who knows what I said when they dunked me in that water, so maybe I didn't make it that day either. :ewink:

 

[Rens]

One day, the kids were with their dad, I was just praying for souls and listening to worship music all the time, I really thought I was raptured.
Alas the next day life kicked in again.

 

[user1234]

Brother, Jesus and Adam were the only two men created without the sin nature. Adam acquired the sin nature through his disobedience to God's command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He passed that flawed sinful nature down through all of the generations of men. Jesus,the man, the last Adam, not begotten by sinful man, but begotten of our Heavenly Father, was born free of the flawed sin nature that Adam acquired. This is why He is the ONLY ONE qualified to be the savior of the world.

I know you do know this brother. I just don't understand this argument you are trying to make.

Hi.
Even though I liked this post and agreed with the main point, after re-reading, I just want to clear up (the part in red) ..... Jesus was not 'created', He's the Only Begotten Son of God, The one who was and is and is to come. He's the creator OF Adam and the rest of us. But I believe the Poster was saying that Jesus was born without a sin-nature, in Him was no sin. That I agree with. Thx.

One day, the kids were with their dad, I was just praying for souls and listening to worship music all the time, I really thought I was raptured.
Alas the next day life kicked in again.

Ahh, life!
Always seems to get in the way of livin', don't it? :kabong:

 

[Brighten04]

Hi.
Even though I liked this post and agreed with the main point, after re-reading, I just want to clear up (the part in red) ..... Jesus was not 'created', He's the Only Begotten Son of God, The one who was and is and is to come. He's the creator OF Adam and the rest of us. But I believe the Poster was saying that Jesus was born without a sin-nature, in Him was no sin. That I agree with. Thx.


Ahh, life!
Always seems to get in the way of livin', don't it? :kabong:

Yes of course. Thanks for clearing that up...if anyone was confused.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't know about 'nobody', but I know that THIS body has not gone weeks:
 ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'” [Luke 10:27]

Heck, I can't drive 20 minutes on US 19 without having an unkind thought for my 'neighbor'.
That doesn't even start to get into seeing something in a magazine or on TV and experiencing a covetous thought.

How do you know if you are loving God with ALL your heart, soul, strength and mind?
I guess you would feel no temptation for anything to drag you away from God.
Never even think 'It was a long day at work, I don't want to go to a mid week service.'
No stray thought as you pass a Hooters billboard. In fact, nothing to distract your thought from the work of God.
Never hearing a stray comment in a lunch line and thinking as you leave 'I should probably have said something'.

No sir, I can't speak for 'nobody' but I don't think I ever made 24 hours except maybe, when I was 8 years old and semi-conscious with a fever of 105. I didn't have hardly any thoughts at all at that time except being plunged into ice water was really cold. I might not have sinned that day.
Then again, who knows what I said when they dunked me in that water, so maybe I didn't make it that day either. :ewink:

I read your post and I start to wonder what you think sin is. Was Eve already a sinner when she heard the serpent say "Has God said ..." or was it when she "saw that the fruit was good ..." or when she "took it and ate it..."?

 

[atpollard]

I read your post and I start to wonder what you think sin is. Was Eve already a sinner when she heard the serpent say "Has God said ..." or was it when she "saw that the fruit was good ..." or when she "took it and ate it..."?

Romans 14:22-23 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Eve was a sinner when she first acted outside of faith ... doubting God and believing Satan.

James 1:13-15 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Matthew 5:27-28 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Sin begins as a thought that gives birth to an action and both are condemned by a Holy, Holy, Holy God.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Sometimes, even doing NOTHING is a sin (at least that's what God seems to be saying).
YMMV

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 14:22-23 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Eve was a sinner when she first acted outside of faith ... doubting God and believing Satan.

James 1:13-15 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Matthew 5:27-28 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Sin begins as a thought that gives birth to an action and both are condemned by a Holy, Holy, Holy God.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

Sometimes, even doing NOTHING is a sin (at least that's what God seems to be saying).
YMMV

Your post explains a lot. Now I know why you see so much sinning happening and why - in your estimation - everybody sins constantly. The holy scriptures do not hold Eve (or Adam) guilty of sin until they disobeyed God's commandment and ate the fruit that they were forbidden to eat on pain of death. They received death as their reward for sin yet God was merciful and provided a way of redemption for them and their posterity. James comments on sin in this way "Blessed is the man who suffers temptation. For when he has been proven, he shall receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him. No one should say, when he is tempted, that he was tempted by God. For God does not entice toward evils, and he himself tempts no one. Yet truly, each one is tempted by his own desires, having been enticed and drawn away. Thereafter, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. Yet truly sin, when it has been consummated, produces death. And so, do not choose to go astray, my most beloved brothers." [SUP]James 1:12-16[/SUP]

Sin has a "life cycle" - pardon the use of 'life' here, it is not intended to imply that sin either has life in it or gives life to those who follow it but only that like a living thing it is conceived, grows, is born, and produces a kind of fruit - its life cycle starts with a desire (perhaps a lust) which desire draws one away from God and when one is drawn away then sin is conceived in the heart and it is given birth in the act and the act brings its just penalty - that is death. This is not the same picture that you painted in your post. Here in saint James' letter sin becomes sin when it is an act and not when it is a desire and not even when it draws one away from God but only when it is acted upon.

 

[Rens]

Jesus said if you look at someone to lust after her you committed adultery in your heart.
It's not a sin if a bird sits on your head, but it is when you let it make a nest there.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus said if you look at someone to lust after her you committed adultery in your heart.
It's not a sin if a bird sits on your head, but it is when you let it make a nest there.

Lust almost always leads to acts that are likely to be bad. It may be that sometimes one can resist the lust of one's own heart then having resisted one may be stronger next time one is tempted. James starts his message about temptation by declaring that the man (or woman) who is tempted is blessed if he (or she) resists. Blessed is the man who suffers temptation. For when he has been proven, he shall receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.

 

[Lamb]

Love the Lord with all your heart. Who here has done that every single moment of his life? All means all, not part, not 99%. Every moment.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Love the Lord with all your heart. Who here has done that every single moment of his life? All means all, not part, not 99%. Every moment.

What do you think love is then? How do you fail at it?

 

[Josiah]

It's simple, MoreCoffee.....

"Sin" = "to miss the mark" to "fall short of the mark." Sinless then = to always, without exception, 24/7, from conception to death, always hitting the mark- in thought, word and deed. In things done and not done. God gets to establish the target:


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."


The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


Yes, the New Testament Great Commandment is to love one another (that would be all 7.3 billion on the planet) JUST AS CHRIST HAS LOVED US. Not, "usually better than the evil jerk who lives next door" or "Usually better than most people ON THE EARTH" as you like to twist it. Nope. The target is the attitude, life, death - love - of CHRIST, on the Cross. When you can say that, from conception to death, you LOVE in your attitude, thoughts, words and actions - in what you do and don't do - exactly as and to the same extent that Christ on the Cross loves, 24/7, then you can claim you've hit the mark. Otherwise, you don't - and thus you sin, you are a sinner, you DESERVE eternal death in hell. Now, that doesn't mean the target is thus to be ignored, it just puts you in the same place as SAINT Paul..... "NOT that I have attained it, but I press on toward the goal."



Pax Christi



- Josiah