True meaning of repentance

[Brighten04]

Corrie ten Boom once met a man who said he didn't sin.
She said: you must be very proud of that. He said: yes I am. Ah, she said, then I did find one lolz.

LOL!:rotfl:

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is one thing to mock contemporary people who (likely wrongly) claim to be sinless and another to answer what the holy scriptures say of men like Job, Enoch, and of Blessed Mary the mother of the Lord.

 

[Josiah]

It is one thing to mock contemporary people who (likely wrongly) claim to be sinless and another to answer what the holy scriptures say of men like Job, Enoch, and of Blessed Mary the mother of the Lord.

None of them are stated to be without sin. This has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over again. By many.

 

[MoreCoffee]

None of them are stated to be without sin.

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]

This has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over again. By many.

 

[Rens]

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]

Dutch translation says righteous. Dunno. Abraham was righteous too. Henoch was sinless I think, so he was raptured.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Dutch translation says righteous. Dunno. Abraham was righteous too. Henoch was sinless I think, so he was raptured.

Many English translations say either "upright" or "perfect" but the meaning of the Hebrew word (ָתּם) is integrity, completeness. This is a rare, almost exclusively poetic term often translated perfect but not carrying the sense of totally free from fault, for it was used of quite flawed people. It describes the mild manner of Jacob in contrast to his brother Esau, who was characterized by shedding blood (Gen 25:27; see also Pro 29:10). The term often carries a rather strong moral component in certain contexts (Job 1:1; Job 9:20-22; Psa 37:37; Psa 64:4). This word appears among a list of glowing terms describing the admirable qualities of the Shulamite lover (Song 5:2; Song 6:9).

1) perfect, complete

1a) complete, perfect

1a1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
​

1b) sound, wholesome

1b1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person
​

1c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity

1c1) one who is morally and ethically pure​

 

[Josiah]

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]

Again.... yet again..... the verse does NOT say that Job was sinless - it says he was blameless: a Hebrew word that means no PUBLIC, HUMAN accusation could "stick" against him. Of course, if he was sinless - then lying isn't a sin because Job himself in Job 42:6 says he is a sinner and that he repents. In order for your Catholic translation to mean in Job 1:8 that Job was perfect in morality - then he lied in Job 42:6 and Catholicism thus teaches that lying is not a sin. We've been all over this. The Hebrew word here has been shown to you. It seems to make no difference to you. You pull out one verse - ignore the original and make it subject to a Catholic English translation, twist that translation inside out until you have contradictions: Job both repenting in sackcloth and ashes for his sins and yet being sinless and thus lying when he repented of his sin and yet sinless and never lying but lying about being being sinful.....

 

[MoreCoffee]

Again.... yet again..... the verse does NOT say that Job was sinless...

Moving the goalposts eh?

None of them are stated to be without sin.

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]

This has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over again. By many.

 

[psalms 91]

Moving the goalposts eh?

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]​

It does not say without sin now does it? King James please

 

[MoreCoffee]

It does not say without sin now does it? King James please

It does say "without sin". The KJV isn't my shibboleth. The KJV says "perfect". Is that better?

 

[Brighten04]

Well, if any person was sinless, then Jesus was sacrificed for no reason.

 

[Josiah]

It does say "without sin". The KJV isn't my shibboleth. The KJV says "perfect". Is that better?

You've ignored - entirely - every one who has shown you the Hebrew. Hum.

If the Hebrew word means "sinless" then lying isn't a sin (and the RCC lies when it says it is) because as you know, Job went on to repent of his sins "in sackcloth and ashes." Funny..... the very verse Catholics often quote on Ash Wednesday about repentance comes verbatim from the mouth of JOB. 42:6 I think is the reference.

As has been explained at length to you, the Hebrew word here refers to something to which a person can be accused PUBLICLY, by PEOPLE. Let's say I beat my pet (and thus aren't sinless).... and no one knows that.... I can't be publicly accused of anything by any person, I'm publicly "blameless". This is called "civil righteousness" in theology - or at least that's what my CATHOLIC teachers taught me. As you've ignored, there are several Hebrew words that speak of our morality - the one you misquote, mistranslate and then misapply doesn't mean what you stress: No, lying does NOT make a man sinless as you insist; Job was telling the TRUTH when he REPENTED of his sinfulness, in sackcloth and ashes, as your parish will point out in less than a month - he was not lying and therefore lying makes one perfect and sinless.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, the Hebrew word תּם means

1) perfect, complete

1a) complete, perfect

1a1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc​

1b) sound, wholesome

1b1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person​

1c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity

1c1) one who is morally and ethically pure​

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]

 

[Josiah]

AGAIN..... the Hebrew means "BLAMELESS BY PEOPLE." Thus the "no one on EARTH." It does not say "You in heaven cannot condemn him" it says no one ON EARTH can. You just skip that. Consistently. But GOD does not grade on a curse - comparing us to other people ON EARTH. God does not look ONLY at the outward things known to PEOPLE ON EARTH.

But you need to decide: Does Job REPENTING in sackcloth and ashes (as your denomination will stress on Ash Wednesday) reveal that Job as a sinner before God OR that lying is not a sin because Job lied when he repented but because Job was sinless, lying is not a sin?" Which is it? Either the RCC is wrong to look to Job on Ash Wednesday OR it's wrong in its absurd "spin" on Job 1:8 and its teaching that lying is sinning.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Josiah, the Hebrew word תּם means

1) perfect, complete

1a) complete, perfect

1a1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc​

1b) sound, wholesome

1b1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person​

1c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity

1c1) one who is morally and ethically pure​

And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8 BBE[/SUP]

Sort of makes Josiah's point about "civil righteousness" doesn't it? How does this make the claim for 'sinlessness' in the Christian sense - i.e. Job being without inherent sin? (or, however you'd like to term it...)

 

[user1234]

Man's dilemma/God's solution ...

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God ... Romans3:23

Being justified freely by His grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ... Romans3:24

Thank you, Jesus!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sort of makes Josiah's point about "civil righteousness" doesn't it? How does this make the claim for 'sinlessness' in the Christian sense - i.e. Job being without inherent sin? (or, however you'd like to term it...)

Josiah complained about "without sin" not being said of Job but it is said of him. Then Josiah moved the "goal posts" and wanted "sinless" but nobody ever says that Job is sinless, nor that Blessed Mary is sinless. What is said of Job is that he is a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil. God said that of him. Enoch has the testimony that he walked with God and pleased God so God took him [into heaven]. Blessed Mary is like these men insofar as she did not sin by doing wicked things and she is unlike them insofar as she was preserved, from the instant of her conception, by God's grace so that she was free from the stain (corruption of nature and character) caused by inherited sin (original sin). That is what the Catholic Church teaches as the teaching of Christ and the apostles. Josiah may (or may not) reject this. Nobody outside of the Catholic Church is asked to receive this as true unless they want to. The comments made by God about Job is not about "civil righteousness" - whatever that may be. God speaks of Job in heaven before the angels. His comment is not about some kind of sub-righteousness applicable only in worldly sin-corrupted civil society. The context does not allow that interpretation to stand even if one wanted to present it. Job's repentance near the end of the story is not said to be repentance for sins and wickedness - far from it, God declares that Job spoke truthfully about him and was commended at the end of the story for having done so - what Job repents of is his creaturely ignorance and he does that after God reveals to him how little he - as a creature - knows. The word "repent" may be causing a misunderstanding. Take a careful look at the passage where Job repents and discover (if you can) what wickedness you think he did so that he needed to repent of it.

Then Job, responding to the Lord, said: I know that you are able to do all things, and that no thoughts are hidden from you. So, who is it that would disguise a lack of knowledge as counsel? Therefore, I have been speaking foolishly, about things whose measure exceeds my knowledge. Listen, and I will speak. I will question you, and you may answer me. By paying attention with the ear, I have heard you, but now my eye sees you. Therefore, I find myself reprehensible, and I will do penance in embers and ashes. [SUP]Job 42:1-6[/SUP]​

The Hebrew word used in the last verse and translated in the KJV as 'repent" is ָנַחם (nāḥam) and it is

A verb meaning to be sorry, to pity, to comfort, to avenge. The verb often means to be sorry or to regret: the Lord was sorry that He had made people (Gen 6:6); He led Israel in a direction to avoid war when they left Egypt, lest they became so sorry and grieved that they would turn back (Exo 13:17). The Lord had compassion on His people (i.e., He became sorry for them because of the oppression their enemies placed on them [Jdg 2:18]). While the Lord could be grieved, He did not grieve or become sorry so that He changed His mind as a human does (1Sa 15:29). The word also means to comfort or console oneself. Isaac was comforted after Sarah, his mother, died (Gen 24:67).

The verb always means to console or comfort. Jacob refused to be comforted when he believed that Joseph had been killed (Gen 37:35). To console is synonymous with showing kindness to someone, as when David consoled Hanun, king of the Ammonites, over the death of his father (2Sa 10:2). God refused to be consoled over the destruction of His people (Isa 22:4; Isa 40:1); yet He comforts those who need it (Psa 119:82; Isa 12:1). The passive form of the word means to be comforted: the afflicted city of Zion would be comforted by the Lord (Isa 54:11; Isa 66:13). In the reflexive stem, it can mean to get revenge for oneself (Gen 27:42; Eze 5:13); to let oneself be sorry or have compassion (Num 23:19; Deu 32:36); and to let oneself be comforted (Gen 37:35; Psa 119:52).​

In Job 42:1-6 Job confesses that he spoke things which he understood not. He had heard of God by the hearing of the ear, but now his eye saw Him, and he abhorred his former words and demeanour, and regretted them showing his sorrow in dust and ashes.

Yet how does God respond to Job's regret?

But after the Lord had finished speaking these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite: My wrath has been kindled against you, and against your two friends, because you have not been speaking correctly in my eyes, as my servant Job has done. Therefore, have seven bulls and seven rams brought to you, and go to my servant Job, and offer these as a holocaust for yourselves. But also, my servant Job will pray for you; I will accept his face, so that foolishness will not be imputed to you. For you have not been speaking correctly about me, as my servant Job has done. So Eliphaz the Themanite, and Baldad the Suhite, and Zophar the Naamathite departed, and they did just as the Lord had spoken to them, and the Lord accepted the face of Job. [SUP]Job 42:7-9[/SUP]​

Job's accuser was Satan [SUP]Job 1:9-11; 2:4[/SUP] and his three friends who came to comfort him in his losses and suffering offered accusations too. The bulk of the story of Job is about accusations made against Job. Yet through all the accusations Job maintained his integrity [SUP]Job 2:10[/SUP]. Anybody reading the story of Job cannot come away believing that Satan and the comforters were right all along and that Job was wicked deserving his losses and suffering. God himself exonerates Job and if God is for him who shall bring an accusation against him [SUP]Rom 8:33[/SUP].

 

[user1234]

Doesn't Romans3:23, among many other places, tell us that ALL have sinned?
Doesn't that mean ALL who ever was or will be born of the flesh, male or female, ALL of humanity, have the stain of sin, and are condemned apart from the salvation Jesus paid for with His blood on the cross?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Doesn't Romans3:23, among many other places, tell us that ALL have sinned?
Doesn't that mean ALL who ever was or will be born of the flesh, male or female, ALL of humanity, have the stain of sin, and are condemned apart from the salvation Jesus paid for with His blood on the cross?

Yes, Romans 3:23 tells the reader that all sinned in the past, all have sinned means sinned in the past, and in the context of Paul's argument it is a reference to original sin rather than an accusation about actual personal wickedness. Romans 5 explains the idea of original sin - a sin inherited through a corrupted human nature that will die because of the corruption.

 

[user1234]

Yes, Romans 3:23 tells the reader that all sinned in the past, all have sinned means sinned in the past, and in the context of Paul's argument it is a reference to original sin rather than an accusation about actual personal wickedness. Romans 5 explains the idea of original sin - a sin inherited through a corrupted human nature that will die because of the corruption.

So then .... ALL have sinned. Every man, every woman. Whether by corrupt human nature and/or choice, if you will, Every one's a sinner, Every one needs a Saviour, and Thanks be to God, we have Him, THE Saviour, in Jesus Christ our Lord.

And as you pointed out in Romans 5 so well,
God commendeth His love toward us, in that,
while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. v8

and Much more then, being now justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through Him. v9

Praise the Lord! God bless you, friend!