True meaning of repentance

[MoreCoffee]

So then .... ALL have sinned. Every man, every woman. Whether by corrupt human nature and/or choice, if you will, Every one's a sinner, Every one needs a Saviour, and Thanks be to God, we have Him, THE Saviour, in Jesus Christ our Lord.

And as you pointed out in Romans 5 so well,
God commendeth His love toward us, in that,
while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. v8

and Much more then, being now justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through Him. v9

Praise the Lord! God bless you, friend!

Did Jesus sin? No? Then not every man has sinned because Jesus is a man.

 

[Josiah]

nobody ever says that Job is sinless

If "nobody" includes you - then there goes your entire point. If one is NOT sinless then one has sin.


I have no idea why you need to "dance" as you have here.... why the contradictory doublespeak... but I think you yourself just trashed your entire point.

 

[user1234]

Did Jesus sin? No? Then not every man has sinned because Jesus is a man.

Lol, oops, ok my fault for assuming. Of course, Jesus never sinned.

He who knew no sin (Jesus) became sin for us (everyone else), that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM. ~(see 2Cor5:21, Rom5:18, Rom6:23 etc)~

Sorry for the assumption and the oversight, and thanks for the correction.
It's good you reminded me that just bc this is a 'christian chatforum' doesn't mean everyone here is a believer,
there may be guests or onlookers who doubt or question, and I need to consider them when posting ..... Some people may actually believe Jesus sinned, so I should have been clearer.

So, to be clear, .... All have sinned, meaning all mankind except for Jesus.
(And...Had He sinned, He couldn't BE The Saviour, ... He would need one Himself)

Thx again. God bless you.

 

[Josiah]

Lol, oops, ok my fault for assuming. Of course, Jesus never sinned.

While MoreCoffee stresses that Jesus was a man, he evades that He was not JUST a man - He is ALSO, EQUALLY, INSEPARABLY also God. So, it's probably not shocking that this GOD/man is sinless - but it would be silly to insist that because the only GOD/man ever to have walked the Earth is sinless, ergo all who are only man also are.

And I think MoreCoffee missed a point: The Bible specifically STATES that Jesus was without sin. While this would be an unavoidable conclusion, it's not just that because the Bible expressly, verbatim STATES what we all realize must be the case.

Historically, orthodox theology has theorized that Jesus was without sin as a function of the "communication of attributes", that is, the attributes of God may be "communicated" to His human nature (it doesn't work the other way around) and so since God is sinless, ergo this "communicates" to his humanity which then is also sinless. I wouldn't argue that's expressly stated in the Scripture but that is the traditional, orthodox "explanation" (including what I learned from my Catholic teachers in my Catholic days). THUS, the whole reason Jesus is sinless doesn't apply anywhere else since no other in all the history of the planet is the GOD/man; Jesus alone is the Incarnate God.

He who knew no sin (Jesus) became sin for us (everyone else), that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM. ~(see 2Cor5:21, Rom5:18, Rom6:23 etc)~

Sorry for the assumption and the oversight, and thanks for the correction.
It's good you reminded me that just bc this is a 'christian chatforum' doesn't mean everyone here is a believer,
there may be guests or onlookers who doubt or question, and I need to consider them when posting ..... Some people may actually believe Jesus sinned, so I should have been clearer.

So, to be clear, .... All have sinned, meaning all mankind except for Jesus.
(And...Had He sinned, He couldn't BE The Saviour, ... He would need one Himself)

Thx again. God bless you.

Amen. Well said. Thanks!

 

[user1234]

While MoreCoffee stresses that Jesus was a man, he evades that He was not JUST a man - He is ALSO, EQUALLY, INSEPARABLY also God. So, it's probably not shocking that this GOD/man is sinless - but it would be silly to insist that because the only GOD/man ever to have walked the Earth is sinless, ergo all who are only man also are.

And I think MoreCoffee missed a point: The Bible specifically STATES that Jesus was without sin. While this would be an unavoidable conclusion, it's not just that because the Bible expressly, verbatim STATES what we all realize must be the case.

Historically, orthodox theology has theorized that Jesus was without sin as a function of the "communication of attributes", that is, the attributes of God may be "communicated" to His human nature (it doesn't work the other way around) and so since God is sinless, ergo this "communicates" to his humanity which then is also sinless. I wouldn't argue that's expressly stated in the Scripture but that is the traditional, orthodox "explanation" (including what I learned from my Catholic teachers in my Catholic days). THUS, the whole reason Jesus is sinless doesn't apply anywhere else since no other in all the history of the planet is the GOD/man; Jesus alone is the Incarnate God.






Amen. Well said. Thanks!

Hey, no ...thank YOU!
I'm not very good at articulatinisms too good.
...I just know the bible says Jesus didn't sin, and everybody else did or does or will. And that means He could be, and is, our Saviour.
There had to be a perfect, spotless 'lamb' to be a perfect complete sacrifice for our sins and the sin of the world.
John, while baptizing, said of Jesus, 'Behold! (Look, There He is!) The Lamb of God!
And the bible refers to Him as The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Thank you, Lord, for your indescribale gift!

 

[Brighten04]

Did Jesus sin? No? Then not every man has sinned because Jesus is a man.

Brother, Jesus and Adam were the only two men created without the sin nature. Adam acquired the sin nature through his disobedience to God's command to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He passed that flawed sinful nature down through all of the generations of men. Jesus,the man, the last Adam, not begotten by sinful man, but begotten of our Heavenly Father, was born free of the flawed sin nature that Adam acquired. This is why He is the ONLY ONE qualified to be the savior of the world.

I know you do know this brother. I just don't understand this argument you are trying to make.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Lol, oops, ok my fault for assuming. Of course, Jesus never sinned.

He who knew no sin (Jesus) became sin for us (everyone else), that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM. ~(see 2Cor5:21, Rom5:18, Rom6:23 etc)~

Sorry for the assumption and the oversight, and thanks for the correction.
It's good you reminded me that just bc this is a 'christian chatforum' doesn't mean everyone here is a believer,
there may be guests or onlookers who doubt or question, and I need to consider them when posting ..... Some people may actually believe Jesus sinned, so I should have been clearer.

So, to be clear, .... All have sinned, meaning all mankind except for Jesus.
(And...Had He sinned, He couldn't BE The Saviour, ... He would need one Himself)

Thx again. God bless you.

I accept - as does the Catholic Church - that all have sinned (Christ excepted) - insofar as all are implicated in the fall and suffer from its consequences. That is what Paul explains in Romans chapter five when he writes

"Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned. There was sin in the world before the Law was given; but where there is no law, no account is kept of sins. But from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, death ruled over all human beings, even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam did when he disobeyed God's command. Adam was a figure of the one who was to come. But the two are not the same, because God's free gift is not like Adam's sin. It is true that many people died because of the sin of that one man. But God's grace is much greater, and so is his free gift to so many people through the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ. And there is a difference between God's gift and the sin of one man. After the one sin, came the judgment of "Guilty"; but after so many sins, comes the undeserved gift of "Not guilty!" It is true that through the sin of one man death began to rule because of that one man. But how much greater is the result of what was done by the one man, Jesus Christ! All who receive God's abundant grace and are freely put right with him will rule in life through Christ. So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life. And just as all people were made sinners as the result of the disobedience of one man, in the same way they will all be put right with God as the result of the obedience of the one man. Law was introduced in order to increase wrongdoing; but where sin increased, God's grace increased much more. So then, just as sin ruled by means of death, so also God's grace rules by means of righteousness, leading us to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." [SUP](Rom 5:12-21)[/SUP]​

Nevertheless God said of Job "Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil". Since God gives Job a good report I am not going to speak against God's word concerning him. A man who has sinned (in Adam) may yet live a life that God says is without sin and upright.

 

[Brighten04]

Since God gives Job a good report I am not going to speak against God's word concerning him. A man who has sinned (in Adam) may yet live a life that God says is without sin and upright.

Job sacrificed the blood of animals to cover his sin. This is why God gives him a good report. It was NOT because Job never sinned.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

 

[Josiah]

I accept - as does the Catholic Church - that all have sinned (Christ excepted)

There goes your whole point, you just trashed your whole argument.

God said of Job "Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth.

Interesting to me how you can post Scripture and then entirely, wholly, completely evade it. As many have been telling you - over and over, in thread after thread when you bring up this singular verse but ignore the entire rest of the Book and Bible - this is "civil righteousness" - comparing to OTHER PEOPLE ON EARTH. It does NOT say that Job was sinless in the sense we're discussing, only that comparing to other sinful, fallen, deprived bloats ... in terms of what he could be publicly charged with by observations - on that basis, he is "blameless". God might well be able to give you a good report (as you put it) compared to the average joe on Earth right now (I wouldn't doubt that for a moment) but that doesn't mean you fulfill the Law - that you are as morally perfect as God is (to the same extent) from conception to death, that you are as holy as God is, as loving as Christ on the Cross - in other words, without sin, always hitting the mark and never missing it. For some reason, your Catholic theology needs for you to dance all around the issue of SIN and your MISSING THE MARK - everyone missing the mark (save one, the only one who lived as the GOD/man).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, your posts don't even make a pretense of dealing with what the holy scriptures say. They only rehearse poor quality and error ridden theology.

 

[user1234]

Job sacrificed the blood of animals to cover his sin. This is why God gives him a good report. It was NOT because Job never sinned.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Hi , ...being new, im not sure what the argument is, either.
I dont mean to make waves. But, is someone saying that there are others besides Jesus who were/are sinless? Or that Jesus sinned also? Or that because Jesus never sinned, we (as believers) never sin either?
Bcause, none of those things are in the bible.

Jesus never sinned.
All the rest of humanity does.
Even believers.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Job sacrificed the blood of animals to cover his sin. This is why God gives him a good report. It was NOT because Job never sinned.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Job 1:5 says that Job offered sacrifices for his sons and daughters in case they had sinned. The verse makes no mention of Job offering sacrifices for his own sins.

And at the end of their days of feasting, Job sent and made them clean, getting up early in the morning and offering burned offerings for them all. For, Job said, It may be that my sons have done wrong and said evil of God in their hearts. And Job did this whenever the feasts came round. [SUP](Job 1:5)[/SUP]​

 

[user1234]

Job 1:5 says that Job offered sacrifices for his sons and daughters in case they had sinned. The verse makes no mention of Job offering sacrifices for his own sins.

And at the end of their days of feasting, Job sent and made them clean, getting up early in the morning and offering burned offerings for them all. For, Job said, It may be that my sons have done wrong and said evil of God in their hearts. And Job did this whenever the feasts came round. [SUP](Job 1:5)[/SUP]​

Hi MoreCoffee
Are you implying that Job was sinless, as in never sinned, as in perfect? Like Jesus who never sinned and was perfect? I'm not judging, I'm just not understanding what your position is.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi MoreCoffee
Are you implying that Job was sinless, as in never sinned, as in perfect? Like Jesus who never sinned and was perfect? I'm not judging, I'm just not understanding what your position is.

No, I am not implying that Job was sinless. Job - in common with all people descended from Adam and Eve - was touched by original sin and hence he has sinned as the passages from the holy scriptures teach (see Romans 3:23, 5:12-21) Yet God says of Job "And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil?" Job 1:8

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, your posts don't even make a pretense of dealing with what the holy scriptures say. They only rehearse poor quality and error ridden theology.

I'm just not clinging to a wrong interpretation of a mistranslation - in direct opposition to the whole witness of Scripture, all to make self look as big as possible and Christ as small as possible.

In any case, you've destroyed your whole point by finally admitted Scripture does not say Job was sinless in the sense of having no sin.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

No, I am not implying that Job was sinless. Job - in common with all people descended from Adam and Eve - was touched by original sin and hence he has sinned as the passages from the holy scriptures teach (see Romans 3:23, 5:12-21) Yet God says of Job "And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil?" Job 1:8

Sorry to be a pain, but which is it?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sorry to be a pain, but which is it?

Job is said to be without sin in Job 1:8 and I take that to mean he did no wickedness (at the very least during the period covered by the story in the book of Job) but I do not take it to mean that Job was exempt from the corruption of human nature engendered in the fall of Adam & Eve which theologians call original sin (or inherited sin, or ancestral sin). Is that plain enough?

 

[user1234]

No, I am not implying that Job was sinless. Job - in common with all people descended from Adam and Eve - was touched by original sin and hence he has sinned as the passages from the holy scriptures teach (see Romans 3:23, 5:12-21) Yet God says of Job "And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil?" Job 1:8

Yes, so what then are you saying? Im trying to follow what the protest or arguement is about. You agree ALL have sinned, including Job, ... Then you point to a scripture and add 'Yet God says' .... As if to say Job didn't sin.
Are you saying that scripture argues with itself?
Im trying to follow your perspective.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, so what then are you saying? Im trying to follow what the protest or arguement is about. You agree ALL have sinned, including Job, ... Then you point to a scripture and add 'Yet God says' .... As if to say Job didn't sin.
Are you saying that scripture argues with itself?
Im trying to follow your perspective.

The argument appears to be that some say (not me) that Job must have done wicked things himself and that he needed to repent of his wickedness (sins) at the end of the book. I am inclined to believe God and agree that Job was without sin (meaning he didn't do anything wicked during the story in the book) and didn't repent of wicked deeds, words, or thoughts but expressed regret that he spoke without having the full facts at his command. I think that the argument comes from a difference in theology. Some (not me) think everybody sins continually and that no one can be righteous for any significant period of time. I think that Job and Enoch are examples of men who were not constantly wicked. They are men who lived exemplary lives as God says in Job 1:8 and as the scriptures say of Enoch in Hebrews 11:5. It is not a complicated issue. It appears to be one where some (not me) are pushing theology ahead of what the holy scriptures have written in them.

By faith Enoch was taken up to heaven so that he did not see death; he was seen no longer, for God took him away: for before he was taken, witness had been given that he was well-pleasing to God: [SUP]Hebrews 11:5[/SUP]
And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8[/SUP]​

 

[Rens]

The argument appears to be that some say (not me) that Job must have done wicked things himself and that he needed to repent of his wickedness (sins) at the end of the book. I am inclined to believe God and agree that Job was without sin (meaning he didn't do anything wicked during the story in the book) and didn't repent of wicked deeds, words, or thoughts but expressed regret that he spoke without having the full facts at his command. I think that the argument comes from a difference in theology. Some (not me) think everybody sins continually and that no one can be righteous for any significant period of time. I think that Job and Enoch are examples of men who were not constantly wicked. They are men who lived exemplary lives as God says in Job 1:8 and as the scriptures say of Enoch in Hebrews 11:5. It is not a complicated issue. It appears to be one where some (not me) are pushing theology ahead of what the holy scriptures have written in them.

By faith Enoch was taken up to heaven so that he did not see death; he was seen no longer, for God took him away: for before he was taken, witness had been given that he was well-pleasing to God: [SUP]Hebrews 11:5[/SUP]
And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? [SUP]Job 1:8[/SUP]​

Yes in the church where I came it was taught that the devil had an opening because he offered for his kids out of fear, which was sin, so they died.
It opposes what Scripture says and is in fact just what those friends of Job said: you must have sinned.