The singular, unique, one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

MoreCoffee

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Some folk complain that the Catholic Church is singular and unique as if those attributes were negative. I guess their complaint really amounts to a complaint that exactly one Church should exist rather than many denominations, meetings, groups, and churches all participating in some 'essential' definition of Christian faith and thus all being part of a single but "invisible church" - the church that Jesus said he would build. But is there any good reason to believe in this kind of multifarious entity made up of many denominations, meetings, groups, and churches rather than in one visible Catholic Church?
 
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psalms 91

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catholic as universal rather than the church itself, lets nail down the definition so there is no confusion
 

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catholic as universal rather than the church itself, lets nail down the definition so there is no confusion

Catholic as in the Church of which I am a member in full communion with the holy see in Rome. The ancient Church that Christ founded and builds century after century.
 

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That church is the Way, not a denomination as we have been through before. Your denomination or the pope does not hold all truth nor does any one denom. The members of Christs body is made up of people from all denoms that have a personal relationship with Him and continue in His ways, not belonging to any church that does not save you. Today there are many who sit in church that are unsaved and that is across all denoms
 

Josiah

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Some folk complain that the Catholic Church is singular and unique as if those attributes were negative. I guess their complaint really amounts to a complaint that exactly one Church should exist rather than many denominations, meetings, groups, and churches all participating in some 'essential' definition of Christian faith and thus all being part of a single but "invisible" church" - the church that Jesus said he would build. But is there any good reason to believe in this kind of multifarious entity made up of many denominations, meetings, groups, and churches rather than in one visible Catholic Church?


The church IS one, holy, catholic communion of saints. That's what the Bible says, that's what the Creed says, that's what Protestant says. But there are protestors to this, most notably the following denominations: The RCC one and the LDS on - they each insist that Christianity, the Body of Christ, is it itself - that singular, individual, institutional denomination. Each of these denominations makes this remarkable, absurd, very unhistorical and unbiblical claim for the identical reason: to replace the issue of truth with power, to lord it over others as the gentiles do, to exempt it itself from accountability and truthfulness. It's quite shameful and not just egotistical and divisive.



A blessed Epiphany to all



- Josiah
 

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Some folk complain that the Catholic Church is singular and unique as if those attributes were negative. I guess their complaint really amounts to a complaint that exactly one Church should exist rather than many denominations, meetings, groups, and churches all participating in some 'essential' definition of Christian faith and thus all being part of a single but "invisible" church" - the church that Jesus said he would build. But is there any good reason to believe in this kind of multifarious entity made up of many denominations, meetings, groups, and churches rather than in one visible Catholic Church?

There is no good reason. All christians should unite and become part of my church because that is no denomination Jesus started with.
Lolol my ex tried that once in another city. We had this tiny church and we just started and that city had one huge evangelical church. He sent letters to all the pastors and said: we should have unity. You're all invited to our healing service next saturday.
Then he was amazed noone showed up lolol.
They don't want unity!!
Ehm I guess that's not how it works.
 

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There was one city where they had revival and all those church leaders prayed together and preached in each other's churches. Almost the whole city got saved.
If the revival breaks out you won't see the difference anymore between denominations and the church walls will fall down.
 

MoreCoffee

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That church is the Way, not a denomination as we have been through before. Your denomination or the pope does not hold all truth nor does any one denom. The members of Christs body is made up of people from all denoms that have a personal relationship with Him and continue in His ways, not belonging to any church that does not save you. Today there are many who sit in church that are unsaved and that is across all denoms

The Catholic Church is the Church. Denominations are a Protestant invention. So too are "independent" groups and meetings. Of course you object to one denomination claiming to be the only true church yet Pentecostals think of their groups as "whole gospel Christians" and everybody else as "traditional church" so in essence your own group(s) surreptitiously claim(s) to be the only "whole gospel preaching church" doesn't it? But that is an aside, not very relevant to the thread except as an example of how "precious" people can be about words while they themselves happily use words of exclusion about their alleged purity and goodness.
 

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There is no good reason. All christians should unite and become part of my church because that is no denomination Jesus started with.
Lolol my ex tried that once in another city. We had this tiny church and we just started and that city had one huge evangelical church. He sent letters to all the pastors and said: we should have unity. You're all invited to our healing service next saturday.
Then he was amazed noone showed up lolol.
They don't want unity!!
Ehm I guess that's not how it works.

It is how it's worked ever since the first schismatic group formed and survived more than a short time. It is fairly common in some "evangelical" circles too. The small Presbyterian denomination I attended years ago also though of itself as a "more pure expression of gospel Christianity" than the denomination its founders left and as more doctrinally pure than other non-Presbyterian protestant denominations.
 

MoreCoffee

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There was one city where they had revival and all those church leaders prayed together and preached in each other's churches. Almost the whole city got saved.
If the revival breaks out you won't see the difference anymore between denominations and the church walls will fall down.

I've never seen that happen, have you?
 

Josiah

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There is no good reason. All christians should unite and become part of my church because that is no denomination Jesus started with.

We all ARE full, complete, inseparable members of the ONE holy, catholic communion of saints. NO human being or human institution can destroy that reality.

It's just that in the political, power-quest wars of East vs. West (all very Roman... very pagan)... their developed a divisive power issue. And in the early 4th Century, the first denomination was created by Rome in its own image in an attempt to insitutionalize and politize Christianity (in connection to and with the Roman Empire) - creating the situation we've had for the last 1700 years or so.

The church is US - created by God. It includes ALL Christians (all brothers and sisters in CHRIST) spread out over all the continents and centuries.... Christians NOT because they are officially enrolled in a parish owned and controlled by some singular, individual, human denomination but because they have the gift of faith in Christ. They are His because He has made them His own - NOT because they are registered in a human institution (some parish) legally and economically owned by some religious corporation and under the all-powerful thumb of such.

I'm certainly not against parishes or denominations of them (these human institutions can be a blessing) I just don't have an egotistical/power need to confuse such with Christ and His Body, His Church. Christians are Christians ---- it's just that they often choose to associate together in a given place and time (congregations/parishes).... and these in turn often choose to associate together (denominations). Nothin' wrong with either. But St. John's Little Brown Church on Main Street is NOT Christ, NOT Christianity, NOT the Body, NOT the church (it's a parish or congregation)..... PEOPLE are the church - CHRISTIAN people - ALL of them together. The Roman Catholic Church is a fine denomination but it is NOT Christ, NOT Christianity, NOT the Body, NOT even people (it's a denomination legal/economic/political entity). PEOPLE are the church - CHRISTIAN people - ALL of them - TOGETHER.

We don't have to strive to be one. The Bible is correct, the Creed is correct - we ARE one. True - there's not one parish (never has been), there's not one denomination (never has been) but such aren't people and don't have faith (only people do). WE are the church. WE are brothers and sisters. WE are one body. One..... holy....... catholic...... community of believers. Millions of parishes, thousands of denominations but one church.



- Josiah
 

Josiah

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The Church!


The ancient Creed affirms that we believe in “one holy catholic church.” The word “catholic” is an adjective (as it only was in the early centuries of Christianity) meaning “universal, whole, complete, general, all-embracing” and should not be confused with the legal, corporate moniker of a singular denominational institution that eventually applied the adjective to itself alone much later.

We affirm the “mystical union of all believers,” “the communion of saints,” the “community of faith.” ALL believers in Jesus – across the centuries and continents – are united by our common faith in Christ as our Savior, united into the “household” or “family” of God, united as the “Body of Christ.” This communion, the church, this family is not limited by time or geography or institutional affiliations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church is CHRISTIANS – in this sense, not an institution. Pardon the grammar, but “It’s not Jesus and ME, it’s Jesus and WE.” This is the primary and foremost meaning of “church.” See Ephesians 2:19-22, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Peter 2:9, Romans 12:4, Ephesians 1:1, Luke 17:21, etc.

We affirm in the Creeds that this corpus of Christians (past and present) is “one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.” Christians are bound together as one community of faith in Christ. We are holy because through this faith in Christ we are forgiven, we are catholic because together we are the whole corpus of believers, and we are a communion or community or fellowship of saints (those made so by faith in Christ). See Matthew 16:18, 1 Peter 2:5 & 9, Mark 16:15, Romans 15:25, 1 Cor. 14:33 and 16:1, Eph. 1:1).


Congregations…


Christians usually associate together, congregating or assembling typically for the purposes of public worship, mutual cooperation, edification, support and accountability. They NEED not (they are Christians - the Church - because of faith, not because of formal institutional membership). Such a gathering in a given place and time is technically called a “congregation” (although the term “church” may be used here in a secondary sense as in "First Baptist of Chicago"; this use is seen in Scripture, too – see Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1). These associations may assume some institutional aspects (property, constitutions, officers, budgets, etc.) but the “church” is the people, not the institution. Actually, the Christians who associate in that congregation are but a small, tiny part of the “church catholic” – the whole number of believers, past and present.

By their very nature, congregations include non-believers in their midst (some seekers, some “hypocrites”), Matthew 13:47-49 seems to indicate we should not be too obsessed about that, just preach the word and love all people (God will sort it all out). Of course, clearly unrepentant sinners and heretics should not be embraced since they can harm or even destroy the fellowship, and give a “false witness” to the community.

Because Christians are spread out all over the world, it’s no surprise that that are literally millions of congregations – some huge, some tiny, some with institutional aspects, some just an informal gathering in a living room. Several congregations are mentioned in the New Testament (Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Revelation 1:4, etc.).


Denominations…


Congregations may be denominational or non-denominational.

“Non-denominational” congregations are autonomous, independent, separate – with no formal relationship with any other congregation and with no accountability beyond itself (usually indicated as directly to Jesus).

“Denominational” congregations have bonded together with others in a formal, institutional manner, usually for reasons similar to why Christians bonded together with others in congregations. These congregations work and serve together, provide mutual accountability and support, etc. Denominations may actually legally/economically own the parishes that belong to it.

Usually (but not always) denominations have a common “Confession” (statements of doctrines and beliefs), a common name and a common governance and polity. They are typically legally incorporated in the jurisdiction in which they own property and govern its affairs. In some, this is well developed and regarded as binding, in some it’s all pretty loose with a lot of “room” for the local congregation to apply such as they see best.

There are no examples of denominations in the New Testament. For the first 300 years, Christianity was an illegal, “underground” religion – more a movement than anything, often “on the run” and meeting informally and occasionally even secretly in “house churches.” This changed when Christianity was made legal and then the official Roman religion in the 4th century. At that time, the Roman Empire formed the first denomination, The Roman Church, for the Christian parishes within the Empire (it never had any relevance outside the Empire).

Today, there are literally thousands of denominations, although perhaps 90% of Christian congregations are in 8 groupings (or confessional communities) of denominations. The fact that there are billions of Christian people, millions of congregations and thousands of denominations has no relevance to the fact that there is ONE, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Irrespective of our institutions, WE are ONE by virtue of our one Lord Jesus, our one faith in Christ, our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5-6, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25, 1 Corinthians 10:17 and 12:12-26).


- Josiah



.
 
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MoreCoffee

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The Catechism of the Catholic Church Compendium teaches thus on the matter of the Church.
“I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH”
The Church in the Plan of God
147. What does the word Church mean?
The word Church refers to the people whom God calls and gathers together from every part of the earth. They form the assembly of those who through faith and Baptism have become children of God, members of Christ, and temples of the Holy Spirit.
148. Are there other names and images with which the Bible speaks about the Church?
In Sacred Scripture we find many images which bring out various complementary aspects of the mystery of the Church. The Old Testament favors those images that are bound to the people of God. The New Testament offers images that are linked to Christ as the Head of this people which is his Body. Other images are drawn from pastoral life (sheepfold, flock, sheep), from agriculture (field, olive grove, vineyard), from construction (dwelling place, stone, temple), and from family life (spouse, mother, family).​
149. What is the origin and the fulfillment of the Church?
The Church finds her origin and fulfillment in the eternal plan of God. She was prepared for in the Old Covenant with the election of Israel, the sign of the future gathering of all the nations. Founded by the words and actions of Jesus Christ, fulfilled by his redeeming death and Resurrection, the Church has been manifested as the mystery of salvation by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. She will be perfected in the glory of heaven as the assembly of all the redeemed of the earth.
150. What is the mission of the Church?
The mission of the Church is to proclaim and establish the Kingdom of God begun by Jesus Christ among all peoples. The Church constitutes on earth the seed and beginning of this salvific Kingdom.​
151. In what way is the Church a mystery?
The Church is a mystery in as much as in her visible reality there is present and active a divine spiritual reality which can only be seen with the eyes of faith.​
152. What does it mean to say that the Church is the universal sacrament of salvation?
This means that she is the sign and instrument both of the reconciliation and communion of all of humanity with God and of the unity of the entire human race.​
There is more to say, but these things are the foundation upon which one builds the doctrine of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
 

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The Church!


The ancient Creed affirms that we believe in “one holy catholic church.” ...

Is there a source for your extensive post or is it all original with you?
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
The Church!


The ancient Creed affirms that we believe in “one holy catholic church.” The word “catholic” is an adjective (as it only was in the early centuries of Christianity) meaning “universal, whole, complete, general, all-embracing” and should not be confused with the legal, corporate moniker of a singular denominational institution that eventually applied the adjective to itself alone much later.

We affirm the “mystical union of all believers,” “the communion of saints,” the “community of faith.” ALL believers in Jesus – across the centuries and continents – are united by our common faith in Christ as our Savior, united into the “household” or “family” of God, united as the “Body of Christ.” This communion, the church, this family is not limited by time or geography or institutional affiliations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church is CHRISTIANS – in this sense, not an institution. Pardon the grammar, but “It’s not Jesus and ME, it’s Jesus and WE.” This is the primary and foremost meaning of “church.” See Ephesians 2:19-22, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Peter 2:9, Romans 12:4, Ephesians 1:1, Luke 17:21, etc.

We affirm in the Creeds that this corpus of Christians (past and present) is “one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.” Christians are bound together as one community of faith in Christ. We are holy because through this faith in Christ we are forgiven, we are catholic because together we are the whole corpus of believers, and we are a communion or community or fellowship of saints (those made so by faith in Christ). See Matthew 16:18, 1 Peter 2:5 & 9, Mark 16:15, Romans 15:25, 1 Cor. 14:33 and 16:1, Eph. 1:1).


Congregations…


Christians usually associate together, congregating or assembling typically for the purposes of public worship, mutual cooperation, edification, support and accountability. They NEED not (they are Christians - the Church - because of faith, not because of formal institutional membership). Such a gathering in a given place and time is technically called a “congregation” (although the term “church” may be used here in a secondary sense as in "First Baptist of Chicago"; this use is seen in Scripture, too – see Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1). These associations may assume some institutional aspects (property, constitutions, officers, budgets, etc.) but the “church” is the people, not the institution. Actually, the Christians who associate in that congregation are but a small, tiny part of the “church catholic” – the whole number of believers, past and present.

By their very nature, congregations include non-believers in their midst (some seekers, some “hypocrites”), Matthew 13:47-49 seems to indicate we should not be too obsessed about that, just preach the word and love all people (God will sort it all out). Of course, clearly unrepentant sinners and heretics should not be embraced since they can harm or even destroy the fellowship, and give a “false witness” to the community.

Because Christians are spread out all over the world, it’s no surprise that that are literally millions of congregations – some huge, some tiny, some with institutional aspects, some just an informal gathering in a living room. Several congregations are mentioned in the New Testament (Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Revelation 1:4, etc.).


Denominations…


Congregations may be denominational or non-denominational.

“Non-denominational” congregations are autonomous, independent, separate – with no formal relationship with any other congregation and with no accountability beyond itself (usually indicated as directly to Jesus).

“Denominational” congregations have bonded together with others in a formal, institutional manner, usually for reasons similar to why Christians bonded together with others in congregations. These congregations work and serve together, provide mutual accountability and support, etc. Denominations may actually legally/economically own the parishes that belong to it.

Usually (but not always) denominations have a common “Confession” (statements of doctrines and beliefs), a common name and a common governance and polity. They are typically legally incorporated in the jurisdiction in which they own property and govern its affairs. In some, this is well developed and regarded as binding, in some it’s all pretty loose with a lot of “room” for the local congregation to apply such as they see best.

There are no examples of denominations in the New Testament. For the first 300 years, Christianity was an illegal, “underground” religion – more a movement than anything, often “on the run” and meeting informally and occasionally even secretly in “house churches.” This changed when Christianity was made legal and then the official Roman religion in the 4th century. At that time, the Roman Empire formed the first denomination, The Roman Church, for the Christian parishes within the Empire (it never had any relevance outside the Empire).

Today, there are literally thousands of denominations, although perhaps 90% of Christian congregations are in 8 groupings (or confessional communities) of denominations. The fact that there are billions of Christian people, millions of congregations and thousands of denominations has no relevance to the fact that there is ONE, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Irrespective of our institutions, WE are ONE by virtue of our one Lord Jesus, our one faith in Christ, our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5-6, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25, 1 Corinthians 10:17 and 12:12-26).


- Josiah



.

Is there a source for your post?


Scriptures all given.
 

Rens

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https://youtu.be/KIIkzzh16e0
one city at the end almost the whole city got saved, first is about unity between churches in Kali. It's long ago I saw it, can't remember where they changed pulpits.
 
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MoreCoffee

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https://youtu.be/KIIkzzh16e0
one city at the end almost the whole city got saved, first is about unity between churches in Kali. It's long ago I saw it, can't remember where they changed pulpits.

It is good to see Charismatic denominations working together and perhaps some evangelical denominations joined in because of their own charismatic leanings. I didn't see or hear mention of working with the local Catholic Church or with Orthodox Christians or with any of the conservative non-charismatic Protestant denominations.
 

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It is good to see Charismatic denominations working together and perhaps some evangelical denominations joined in because of their own charismatic leanings. I didn't see or hear mention of working with the local Catholic Church or with Orthodox Christians or with any of the conservative non-charismatic Protestant denominations.

No I watched it a bit again. Seemed like there were only evangelical churches. But I remember I saw one such a place where they changed pulpits with Episcopalians.
 
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Oh it's on the video but not Cali, but in Hemet. I mixed it up.


And what of the Valley’s infamous church infighting? “Now we are a wall of living stones,” Beekett declares proudly. “Instead of competing, we are swapping pulpits. You have Baptists in Pentecostal pulpits and vice versa. You have Lutherans with Episcopalians. The Christian community has become a fabric instead of loose yarn.”

Houston adds that valley churches are also brought together by quarterly concerts of prayer and citywide prayer revivals where speaking assignments are rotated among area pastors.

Hmm no mention of Catholics though.



https://www.google.nl/amp/s/renewal...t-century-revivals-transforming-revivals/amp/
 
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