Indulgence

[Lamb]

If these "punishments" are only by men, then why would someone have to endure after death a period of cleansing if Christ didn't handle it completely with HIS death?

Discipline is not equivalent to punishment.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If these "punishments" are only by men, then why would someone have to endure after death a period of cleansing if Christ didn't handle it completely with HIS death?

Discipline is not equivalent to punishment.

Discipline is the equivalent of punishment.

 

[Rens]

If these "punishments" are only by men, then why would someone have to endure after death a period of cleansing if Christ didn't handle it completely with HIS death?

Discipline is not equivalent to punishment.

That is a complete mystery to me. I don't understand it for one bit. Normally Jesus cleanses you from your sin, you have passed from death to life, you go to heaven immediately, no purgatory if you ask me. But that one text says some will be saved as through fire and suffer loss because they built with hay and that will be on the day of judgement. Is that after death or maybe in the great trib, I don't have a clue. If it was about adulterers and such who don't repent as I first thought and stay in it, impossible, it says such don't inherit the Kingdom. If they convert before they die it's completely washed away so they go straight to heaven, then about who is it? Paul said about that man living with his father's wife that he delivered him over to satan for the destruction of his flesh, so his spirit would be saved. Then I think: oh that's on judgement day, but no, that was here on earth, because later he repented. It's quite vague. Maybe that's why they call it vague fire in Dutch.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is a complete mystery to me. I don't understand it for one bit. Normally Jesus cleanses you from your sin, you have passed from death to life, you go to heaven immediately, no purgatory if you ask me. But that one text says some will be saved as through fire and suffer loss because they built with hay and that will be on the day of judgement. Is that after death or maybe in the great trib, I don't have a clue. If it was about adulterers and such who don't repent as I first thought and stay in it, impossible, it says such don't inherit the Kingdom. If they convert before they die it's completely washed away so they go straight to heaven, then about who is it? Paul said about that man living with his father's wife that he delivered him over to satan for the destruction of his flesh, so his spirit would be saved. Then I think: oh that's on judgement day, but no, that was here on earth, because later he repented. It's quite vague. Maybe that's why they call it vague fire in Dutch.

The idea of purgation is present in Protestant theology too. Protestants also believe that in heaven there is no evil, none of the faithful remains as they were when they died, all are cleansed of the flaws in character, habit, thinking, and acting that they had while living on earth. Some think that is an instantaneous thing, others think it has duration of some kind. Purgatory is the purging away of the things I mentioned. But an indulgence does not take away the need for purgation.

 

[Lamb]

Discipline is the equivalent of punishment.

No. Discipline is for teaching and punishment is to pay a penalty. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

They are not interchangeable ideas even though some people tend to think that discipline can feel like a punishment. It's not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No. Discipline is for teaching and punishment is to pay a penalty. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

They are not interchangeable ideas even though some people tend to think that discipline can feel like a punishment. It's not.

Seems to me that both are a penalty and both are for instruction.

 

[Lamb]

Seems to me that both are a penalty and both are for instruction.

Punishment is done as a reaction out of emotion to an act committed by someone.

Discipline is to train and involves consequences.

As a parent I was happy to learn the difference early on between the two when my child was a toddler. I disciplined by grace instead of allowing my anger to control me. My wrath was not upon my child but instead out of my love she experienced consequences related to what she did wrong so instead of being fearful of a punishment she learned why her action was wrong and that convinced her to not do it again. She learned that out of love.

As children of God who by grace through faith trust in the Savior, we don't receive the punishment due us for our sins from God. Not here and not at our deaths. We receive consequences here on earth but it's not the same as punishment even though we might not want to deal with the results. God isn't angry with the faithful.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Punishment is done as a reaction out of emotion to an act committed by someone.

Discipline is to train and involves consequences.

As a parent I was happy to learn the difference early on between the two when my child was a toddler. I disciplined by grace instead of allowing my anger to control me. My wrath was not upon my child but instead out of my love she experienced consequences related to what she did wrong so instead of being fearful of a punishment she learned why her action was wrong and that convinced her to not do it again. She learned that out of love.

As children of God who by grace through faith trust in the Savior, we don't receive the punishment due us for our sins from God. Not here and not at our deaths. We receive consequences here on earth but it's not the same as punishment even though we might not want to deal with the results. God isn't angry with the faithful.

Courts administer punishments that have very little to do with emotional reaction.

 

[Lamb]

Courts administer punishments that have very little to do with emotional reaction.

The courts and the church are separate.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The courts and the church are separate.

Not completely; there are religious courts as well as civil courts but this matter is about punishments regardless of their source. Civil authority administers punishments, religious authorities administer punishments, families administer punishments, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, children, and one's own conscience administer punishments. All this was said in previous posts in this thread. Sometimes one's feelings of guilt can create deep depression, even panic attacks, this has been known for thousands of years. Oedipus Rex is such a story, Macbeth too, many books, poems, plays tell the story of conscience inflicted punishments. An indulgence always was intended to alleviate these kinds of punishment as far as is possible by an external act made by an authority that has credibility with the one receiving the indulgence.

 

[Lamb]

Absolution is the key to bring comfort to those in despair. It was designed that way. It's all about the Gospel. It can alleviate panic attacks and sometimes depression although since depression is a medical issue, medication is advised since God created the vocation of doctors for healing.

Besides, the consequences of people going through depression is NOT punishment. That's a very horrible suggestion to make.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Absolution is the key to bring comfort to those in despair. It was designed that way. It's all about the Gospel. It can alleviate panic attacks and sometimes depression although since depression is a medical issue, medication is advised since God created the vocation of doctors for healing.

Besides, the consequences of people going through depression is NOT punishment. That's a very horrible suggestion to make.

In the sacraments absolution is given and sins are forgiven by God yet the consequences of sins remain; family, the Church, the state, one's self all may have a rightful claim on the sinner because of their forgiven sins. That is why the civil courts punish, why families bonds that were broken take time to heal, and why the Church may take time to restore an excommunicated sinner. All of this has been said before. All of it is true both with Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant jurisdictions.

 

[Rens]

In the sacraments absolution is given and sins are forgiven by God yet the consequences of sins remain; family, the Church, the state, one's self all may have a rightful claim on the sinner because of their forgiven sins. That is why the civil courts punish, why families bonds that were broken take time to heal, and why the Church may take time to restore an excommunicated sinner. All of this has been said before. All of it is true both with Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant jurisdictions.

Take time? We don't do that. Ain't nobody got time fo that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Take time? We don't do that. Ain't nobody got time fo that.

:smirk:

Not enough time in eternity for it, eh?

 

[Lamb]

In the sacraments absolution is given and sins are forgiven by God yet the consequences of sins remain; family, the Church, the state, one's self all may have a rightful claim on the sinner because of their forgiven sins. That is why the civil courts punish, why families bonds that were broken take time to heal, and why the Church may take time to restore an excommunicated sinner. All of this has been said before. All of it is true both with Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant jurisdictions.

Indulgences do have a connection to purgatory. Not just here on the earthly realm as you're claiming. It's in your catechism about having to expiate for those sins because Christ just couldn't do it for you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Indulgences do have a connection to purgatory. Not just here on the earthly realm as you're claiming. It's in your catechism about having to expiate for those sins because Christ just couldn't do it for you.

I haven't claimed that indulgences apply only to earthly temporal punishments. I have explicitly mentioned purgation for sins and purgatory in relation to indulgences. I also quoted both the Catechism and the Code of Canon Law on the matter. You're either misrepresenting my posts or not reading them. Nevertheless indulgences relate to temporal punishments not to forgiveness nor to eternal punishments consequently that relate only to things that are temporary. And the only expiation present in purgatory, earth, or an indulgence is the expiation of one's temporal punishments which have been described several times in this thread already so they need not be described again. Nevertheless the word expiation appears to be throwing you. So much so that you - once more - treat it as if it applied only to the forgiveness of sins rather than expiating the faults, broken relationships, and other factors that are consequences of already forgiven sins. Christ's shed blood is shed for the forgiveness of sins of many and expiates those sins and their guilt yet Christ's shed blood does not take away temporal consequences - such as legal liability, broken relationships, feelings of guilt etcetera that are implicit in some sins. We ought not need to go over this again. It's been covered many times in this thread.