Indulgence

Lamb

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Temporal punishments are mostly inherent in the sin. The Church does not impose them as much as recognise that they are the consequence of sin.

Consequences are not punishments so why is the Church calling them the same? Who is doing the punishment according to your Church? Is it God punishing the repentant? Which isn't the case because of Jesus's propitiation for sins. Or is it your Church punishing?
 

MoreCoffee

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Consequences are not punishments so why is the Church calling them the same? Who is doing the punishment according to your Church? Is it God punishing the repentant? Which isn't the case because of Jesus's propitiation for sins. Or is it your Church punishing?

Ask the man or woman who cheated on their spouse if that sin went unpunished even after God forgave it. Ask the criminal in prison if they are not being punished for their sin even though the Lord forgave it. You surely know that both will tell you that they are being or were punished for their sin even though God absolved them.
 

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Ask the man or woman who cheated on their spouse if that sin went unpunished even after God forgave it. Ask the criminal in prison if they are not being punished for their sin even though the Lord forgave it. You surely know that both will tell you that they are being or were punished for their sin even though God absolved them.

Punished by God?
 

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God allows man to do civil judgments and handle civil laws but that's not GOD punishing man for his sins. That's God allowing it. Just as God allows bad things to happen to people for no reason. He allows it. Look at Job.
 

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Even after Jesus was the propitiation for our sins you find God to be one of wrath, punishing for sins? How does this bring souls to Christ, pointing them to forgiveness if you say on one hand that they're forgiven, yet, they really aren't? That God is gonna get you for that (that used to be a song!).
 

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Punished by God?

Punished by family in the case of adultery. Punished by one's conscience too for many. Punished by the civil authority in the case of murder. I explained this before. Why is it so hard to grasp?

The principle is expressed in holy scripture thus Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
 

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Punished by family in the case of adultery. Punished by one's conscience too for many. Punished by the civil authority in the case of murder. I explained this before. Why is it so hard to grasp?

The principle is expressed in holy scripture thus Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM

So being covered in Jesus' righteousness is not enough according to the Catholic catechism.
 

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Punished by family in the case of adultery. Punished by one's conscience too for many. Punished by the civil authority in the case of murder. I explained this before. Why is it so hard to grasp?

The principle is expressed in holy scripture thus Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Try make it sound more protestant maybe LOL.
 

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The Vatican website does not state that it's other humans doing the punishing. It infers that it's God's punishment for sins and even states that in Purgatory (where man goes to be purified according to Catholic beliefs due to these sins even though the man is saved he still must go through this purification) that man must atone for these temporal sins. "those who are expiating their sins in purgatory "

Expiating means atone.

None of that points to Jesus but keeps going back to man doing something instead of relying on the Savior. There is the statement that men are forgiven yet then goes on to say that they really aren't and still need to DO something until they get to be with God. The Gospel states that we are clothed in Christ's righteousness. We are washed clean in our baptisms and this is connected to the cross where Jesus was our propitiation for sins. For all sins. Even those temporal ones. He atoned for us. We believe in this by grace through faith and get to be with God when we die.
 

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If someone is living in fornication and does not want to repent and, most churches don't do that anymore, but suppose one does, the pastor and elders warn him or her, they don't listen and either can't stand the preaching on holiness anymore and leave or are asked to not come anymore unless they repent. Then later on they repent, say sorry and can we come back? Pastor checks it, halleluja, they have really converted, come back. Then in front of the others he says he's so glad God showed them and welcome back. He doesn't give them a paper, but I'd call that a sort of indulgence protestant or evangelical style.
 

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The Vatican website does not state that it's other humans doing the punishing. It infers that it's God's punishment for sins and even states that in Purgatory (where man goes to be purified according to Catholic beliefs due to these sins even though the man is saved he still must go through this purification) that man must atone for these temporal sins. "those who are expiating their sins in purgatory "

Expiating means atone.

None of that points to Jesus but keeps going back to man doing something instead of relying on the Savior. There is the statement that men are forgiven yet then goes on to say that they really aren't and still need to DO something until they get to be with God. The Gospel states that we are clothed in Christ's righteousness. We are washed clean in our baptisms and this is connected to the cross where Jesus was our propitiation for sins. For all sins. Even those temporal ones. He atoned for us. We believe in this by grace through faith and get to be with God when we die.

They do need to do something. Repent, confess sin. Say sorry to the others you harmed, guess you do that if it's genuine. A guy stole stuff and then converted. He gave that shop their money back, like Zacheus, no he gave it 4 fold, that was better.
 

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"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P4G.HTM

So being covered in Jesus' righteousness is not enough according to the Catholic catechism.

"Covered in Jesus Righteousness" is Lutheran religious language, isn't it. The snow covered dung thing?

The holy scriptures say that the Church* is clothed in white which is the righteous works of the saints (Revelation 19:8)
 

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Try make it sound more protestant maybe LOL.

I can't because the holy scriptures are not Protestant they are, in every word, Catholic. :)
 
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MoreCoffee

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The Vatican website does not state that it's other humans doing the punishing. It infers that it's God's punishment for sins and even states that in Purgatory (where man goes to be purified according to Catholic beliefs due to these sins even though the man is saved he still must go through this purification) that man must atone for these temporal sins. "those who are expiating their sins in purgatory "

Expiating means atone.

None of that points to Jesus but keeps going back to man doing something instead of relying on the Savior. There is the statement that men are forgiven yet then goes on to say that they really aren't and still need to DO something until they get to be with God. The Gospel states that we are clothed in Christ's righteousness. We are washed clean in our baptisms and this is connected to the cross where Jesus was our propitiation for sins. For all sins. Even those temporal ones. He atoned for us. We believe in this by grace through faith and get to be with God when we die.

The reader infers the writer may imply
Catholic teaching is quite explicit that the temporal punishments due for sins are temporal not eternal and often earthly not purgatorial though some are purgatorial. They appear to be self-imposed or imposed by other human beings and have to do with restoring relationships within the body of Christ.

My dictionary define expiation as the act of making amends or reparation for guilt or wrongdoing; atonement.

Your posts suggests that expiation means atone - presumably in a theological sense since you say that "none of that points to Jesus" - but it doesn't mean that precisely does it? Expiation for a crime is accepting the punishment due for it. A criminal expiates his/her crimes under civil law by serving time in prison and he/she expiates his/her broken relationships by restoring them with the help of those who were estranged by his/her criminal acts. None of this is difficult or mysterious or hard to understand.

Theological expiation is explained in the holy scriptures.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church - Glossary - says
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433 The name of the Saviour God was invoked only once in the year by the high priest in atonement for the sins of Israel, after he had sprinkled the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies with the sacrificial blood. the mercy seat was the place of God's presence.25 When St. Paul speaks of Jesus whom "God put forward as an expiation by his blood", he means that in Christ's humanity "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself."( ⇒ Rom 3:25; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:19.)

Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross

616 It is love "to the end"(⇒ Jn 13:1.) that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.(Cf. ⇒ Gal 2:20; ⇒ Eph 5:2, ⇒ 25.) Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."(⇒ 2 Cor 5:14.) No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. the existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Clipboard01.jpg
 

Lamb

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"Covered in Jesus Righteousness" is Lutheran religious language, isn't it. The snow covered dung thing?

The holy scriptures say that the Church* is clothed in white which is the righteous works of the saints (Revelation 19:8)

Here are the verses so you can see:

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Romans 13:14 Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ,

and these connect with the Old Testament (isn't that typical?)
Isaiah 61:10 For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousnes

So, it's biblical language as you can see.

Since we are clothed in Christ, we get to be with God when we die. We don't have to try and make up for anything, say any Hail Marys, have special masses for the dead, etc... since Jesus covers us.

God isn't punishing His Son now that the sacrifice was accepted. Neither will He punish those who by grace through faith trust in Him.
 

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Here are the verses so you can see:

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Romans 13:14 Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ,

and these connect with the Old Testament (isn't that typical?)
Isaiah 61:10 For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousnes

So, it's biblical language as you can see.

Since we are clothed in Christ, we get to be with God when we die. We don't have to try and make up for anything, say any Hail Marys, have special masses for the dead, etc... since Jesus covers us.

God isn't punishing His Son now that the sacrifice was accepted. Neither will He punish those who by grace through faith trust in Him.

The language in the passages you cited is known to me. A robe of righteousness doesn't tell me that the righteousness is external, but I imagine you see it as such.
 

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The language in the passages you cited is known to me. A robe of righteousness doesn't tell me that the righteousness is external, but I imagine you see it as such.

To be clothed in Christ applies to all of me in that I am covered in Christ's righteousness and holiness. It is the connection to the cross so that God has me covered ;) God provides for us wonderfully and our judgment as Christians is Not Guilty. There is no need to be separated from Him at death for sins carried out while alive since Christ paid every penalty for them.
 

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To be clothed in Christ applies to all of me in that I am covered in Christ's righteousness and holiness. It is the connection to the cross so that God has me covered ;) God provides for us wonderfully and our judgment as Christians is Not Guilty. There is no need to be separated from Him at death for sins carried out while alive since Christ paid every penalty for them.

Being clothed in Christ does not say "clothed in Christ's righteousness" nor do any of the passages you cited say that specifically. One puts on Christ in Christ in baptism and I see no reason to doubt that when one puts on Christ his goodness, righteousness, truth, glory and many other things become part of you. Yet none of this teaches that one does not face civil, societal, social, and personal consequences for one's sins. Just as one rises from death in baptism implies all sorts of beautiful things yet without withdrawing one's own mortality in earthly life. One still gets sick, dies, suffers, and so forth in this life despite the assurance in holy scripture that by his stripes we are healed and despite the Lord's words he who lives and believes in me will never die. Temporal punishments due to sins include earthly death, decay of and within creation, sickness, injury. These are part of a curse mentioned in Genesis 3. Yet few today will attempt to assign any specific sin to specific suffering - thus we do not accuse a cancer victim of being a particularly heinous sinner because they have a particularly dreaded illness. Nor can we rightly accuse those who die in disasters, wars, plagues of being especially wicked people because the Lord specifically excluded that possibility when discussing the man born blind and those who died when the tower of siloam fell. I can't help but think we all know these things, yet here we are debating if "putting on Christ" means that one need never suffer in this life and that suffering in this life has nothing whatever to do with sins.
 

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Being clothed in Christ does not say "clothed in Christ's righteousness" nor do any of the passages you cited say that specifically. One puts on Christ in Christ in baptism and I see no reason to doubt that when one puts on Christ his goodness, righteousness, truth, glory and many other things become part of you. Yet none of this teaches that one does not face civil, societal, social, and personal consequences for one's sins. Just as one rises from death in baptism implies all sorts of beautiful things yet without withdrawing one's own mortality in earthly life. One still gets sick, dies, suffers, and so forth in this life despite the assurance in holy scripture that by his stripes we are healed and despite the Lord's words he who lives and believes in me will never die. Temporal punishments due to sins include earthly death, decay of and within creation, sickness, injury. These are part of a curse mentioned in Genesis 3. Yet few today will attempt to assign any specific sin to specific suffering - thus we do not accuse a cancer victim of being a particularly heinous sinner because they have a particularly dreaded illness. Nor can we rightly accuse those who die in disasters, wars, plagues of being especially wicked people because the Lord specifically excluded that possibility when discussing the man born blind and those who died when the tower of siloam fell. I can't help but think we all know these things, yet here we are debating if "putting on Christ" means that one need never suffer in this life and that suffering in this life has nothing whatever to do with sins.

We won't agree on the verse even though I showed the connection of what Isaiah wrote to the New Testament verses.

Beyond that and getting back to the topic, consequences to our actions is not God punishing us. When we die, we do not have to do time anywhere to wait out for punishment for anything since Christ paid it all in full and our account is clear.

God is not causing your suffering. He allows bad things to happen to us for discipline but he's not out to get you for your sin.
 

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We won't agree on the verse even though I showed the connection of what Isaiah wrote to the New Testament verses.

Beyond that and getting back to the topic, consequences to our actions is not God punishing us. When we die, we do not have to do time anywhere to wait out for punishment for anything since Christ paid it all in full and our account is clear.

God is not causing your suffering. He allows bad things to happen to us for discipline but he's not out to get you for your sin.

Your the only one saying that the temporal punishments due to sins are punishments inflicted by God. I've never said that. Yet the holy scriptures do argue that a Son is not a son unless he is disciplined by his Father. The apparent meaning in Hebrews is that the children of God are disciplined by God and that can be hard to bear at the time it happens.

Hebrews 12:3-17 [3] Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. [4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. [5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?-- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. [6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." [7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? [8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. [9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? [10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. [11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. [12] Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, [13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. [14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. [15] See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; [16] that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. [17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
 
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