A Gutsy Preacher

MarkFL

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I found the following posted in the blog of a Christian preacher:

"At the end of all our studying and praying and accepting and rejecting and feeling and dismissing and meditating and wrestling; whether we’re completely sold-out for Jesus, or unapologetically Buddhist or devout practitioners of another faith tradition or fully defiant in disbelief of any Deity—none of us really knows anything.

After all our pursuits and positing, we’re all really just Agnostics with suspicions."


Here's a link to the blog entry:

We're All Really Just Agnostics With Suspicions
 

MoreCoffee

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I found the following posted in the blog of a Christian preacher:

"At the end of all our studying and praying and accepting and rejecting and feeling and dismissing and meditating and wrestling; whether we’re completely sold-out for Jesus, or unapologetically Buddhist or devout practitioners of another faith tradition or fully defiant in disbelief of any Deity—none of us really knows anything.

After all our pursuits and positing, we’re all really just Agnostics with suspicions."


Here's a link to the blog entry:

We're All Really Just Agnostics With Suspicions

Fair enough. We do not know that God is there or that Jesus is God. We (meaning Christians) believe it. There's evidence of a sort but no absolute proof.
 

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The site was so filled with ads it kept locking up my computer.

So I searched out this guy and found his blog posts on the Huffington website. I really don't care for "Pastors" who don't preach Jesus or forgiveness of sins. There are a great many out there. I searched and searched and this guy doesn't seem to want to do what he is called to do as a pastor. He has a lot to say but it's not Christ oriented.

Since my computer kept locking up I didn't get to read his full post on why he assumes everyone is agnostic. I disagree with it of course and he insists that even through our experiences we can't know that God is real? Um. Yes. I do know that God is real. Can I prove it to him or anyone else? No. That's not my job.
 

MarkFL

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The site was so filled with ads it kept locking up my computer.

So I searched out this guy and found his blog posts on the Huffington website. I really don't care for "Pastors" who don't preach Jesus or forgiveness of sins. There are a great many out there. I searched and searched and this guy doesn't seem to want to do what he is called to do as a pastor. He has a lot to say but it's not Christ oriented.

Since my computer kept locking up I didn't get to read his full post on why he assumes everyone is agnostic. I disagree with it of course and he insists that even through our experiences we can't know that God is real? Um. Yes. I do know that God is real. Can I prove it to him or anyone else? No. That's not my job.

Try Ad Blocker...I didn't see a single ad there. :D

Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others. If you cannot demonstrate the truth of your belief, then it can't be considered knowledge. Faith is about beliefs, not knowledge. :)
 

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Try Ad Blocker...I didn't see a single ad there. :D

Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others. If you cannot demonstrate the truth of your belief, then it can't be considered knowledge. Faith is about beliefs, not knowledge. :)

The page is graphics heavy so it does load slowly
 

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Frankly he's worthless as a pastor. The whole rest of the world basically preaches that message, why bother attending his services?
 

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Try Ad Blocker...I didn't see a single ad there. :D

Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others. If you cannot demonstrate the truth of your belief, then it can't be considered knowledge. Faith is about beliefs, not knowledge. :)

When something happens and no one else is there to witness, that doesn't mean it's not true or that knowledge of the event never took place.
 

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Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others. If you cannot demonstrate the truth of your belief, then it can't be considered knowledge.

Sure. But from what basis? Using what assumptions? Everyone has to make assumptions. Your statement implies assumptions, such as that it's even possible to demonstrate something rationally and logically to someone else. You're assuming rationality and the existence of logic. Why is that a thing? Why should I believe that there are categories such as clear or unclear terms, true or false propositions, and valid or invalid arguments? (I do, by the way.)

If you don't believe in a Creator, and thinking or consciousness is merely the moving around of electrons in the brain, then there is no basis for authority whatsoever. So, for example, if you say that "Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others." why should I believe that? That statement is merely the result of electrons moving around in your brain. Why is the moving around of electrons in your brain any better than the moving around of electrons in anyone else's brain? Perhaps most telling: why does the moving around of electrons in your brain have more authority than the moving around of electrons in the brain of someone diametrically opposed to you?

Materialism has no epistemology at all. As science has told us again and again, science cannot arrive at truth, it can only approximate it. Moreover, science cannot ever tell us the "oughtness" of anything. Science cannot tell us why embryonic stem cell research is evil: science only judges the ethics of a behavior by the possibility of that behavior. Can we do it? Then we should. Under materialism, no one can know anything at all, there is no meaning, and you might just as well kill yourself.

The Christian epistemology is very different. God the Holy Spirit convicts us that the Bible is true. What is truth? The set of all statements that correspond to reality as God sees it. Now we have a foundation on which we can build. The Bible assumes logic: logic is rooted in the very character of God. Why do we have consciousness? Because we are made in the image of God, and God has consciousness. Why are there absolute truths? Because God created the universe, He is utterly logical and never contradicts Himself, which implies that the statement "There are no absolute truths" contradicts itself. (Is it true for everyone? Then it's false!)

Faith is about beliefs, not knowledge. :)

Beliefs are not "throw yourself off the cliff" types of statements. As in, "go out on a limb and believe that." I'm willing to allow a distinction between the two, but not a separation. In one sense, I suppose you could say that "I believe the Bible is true" is a true statement. But I also know the Bible is true, because the Holy Spirit has convinced me of that fact. In the same way, I believe Jesus Christ came to this earth, lived a perfect life, died on the cross for my sins, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, and will come again to judge everyone. But I also know those things, because the Bible says it. If you want to say that beliefs are your fundamental assumptions, and knowledge everything you can logically derive from that, fine. But everyone has assumptions. Everyone has to have a starting-place. I find talking about the starting-place to be the most fruitful discussions, oftentimes, because the issues seem simpler.

Historically, interestingly, the word "belief" used to be a stronger word than "knowledge". That is, it was considered a stronger statement to say "I believe x." than to say "I know x."
 

MarkFL

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Sure. But from what basis? Using what assumptions?

Under the assumption that we can effectively communicate with each other as reasoning beings.
 

Josiah

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I found the following posted in the blog of a Christian preacher:

"At the end of all our studying and praying and accepting and rejecting and feeling and dismissing and meditating and wrestling; whether we’re completely sold-out for Jesus, or unapologetically Buddhist or devout practitioners of another faith tradition or fully defiant in disbelief of any Deity—none of us really knows anything.

After all our pursuits and positing, we’re all really just Agnostics with suspicions."


Here's a link to the blog entry:

We're All Really Just Agnostics With Suspicions


IF true, then we're all believers.... Just believing different things, NONE of which we can PROVE in any absolute sense. Yes, taken to that extreme, I CHOOSE to believe I exist, I CHOOSE to accept some things as real and some things as not, I CHOOSE to believe I'm looking at a website and posting on it.... Could all be a lie..... but I CHOOSE.

I suppose Philosphy can lead to such..... if you choose it.



- Josiah
 

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Under the assumption that we can effectively communicate with each other as reasoning beings.

Ok, so forgive me for being the annoying three-year-old here, but why can we effectively communicate with each other as reasoning beings? What is reason, and why is it that we can reason?
 

MoreCoffee

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Cornelius Van Til's presuppositionalism ... oh dear.
 

MarkFL

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Ok, so forgive me for being the annoying three-year-old here, but why can we effectively communicate with each other as reasoning beings? What is reason, and why is it that we can reason?

LOL! This thread is about a preacher intellectually honest enough to state that when it comes to the supernatural, there is no such thing as genuine knowledge, either for or against. On the supernatural, we are all truly agnostic. That's the point he was making, and with which I agree.
 

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Try Ad Blocker...I didn't see a single ad there. :D

Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others. If you cannot demonstrate the truth of your belief, then it can't be considered knowledge. Faith is about beliefs, not knowledge. :)

People keep telling me to get Ad Blocker! LOL I really need to put that on my To Do list, thanks!

Let's say Jacque Cousteau was still alive and had some underwater laboratory hidden away from all people. He studied a species that was previously unknown to all of mankind. He had "knowledge" of that specie's feeding, breeding, etc but all of his equipment, proof, just everything was obliterated and all that was left was Jacque floating on the top of the water trying to stay alive. Jacque HAD knowledge but no proof to share with the world.

We don't have to believe Jacque as much as he'd like us to believe. But to claim knowledge can't exist apart from proving it to others is not something I agree with. Of course I want proof in order to trust that Jacque had knowledge just like you would want proof.
 

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IF true, then we're all believers.... Just believing different things, NONE of which we can PROVE in any absolute sense. Yes, taken to that extreme, I CHOOSE to believe I exist, I CHOOSE to accept some things as real and some things as not, I CHOOSE to believe I'm looking at a website and posting on it.... Could all be a lie..... but I CHOOSE.

I suppose Philosphy can lead to such..... if you choose it.



- Josiah

You're just a wave in motion. So am I.
 

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Fair enough. We do not know that God is there or that Jesus is God. We (meaning Christians) believe it. There's evidence of a sort but no absolute proof.

We do know. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
 

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Psalm 19King James Version (KJV)

19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

It's so obvious to me that this magnificent creation didn't create it self, always exist or start from nothing. It is intellectually irresponsible of me to think otherwise.
 

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Try Ad Blocker...I didn't see a single ad there. :D

Knowledge is something you can rationally and logically demonstrate to others. If you cannot demonstrate the truth of your belief, then it can't be considered knowledge. Faith is about beliefs, not knowledge. :)

How would you propose to demonstrate the truth of "I love my wife"? A cynic might look at the things I do for her and conclude I was hoping for some kind of payback rather than acting out of love.

On a comparable note, how would I demonstrate the truth of "I saw a bald eagle in the park the other day"? Someone who didn't want to believe that eagles visited the park, or that I had seen one, could merely reject whatever I said about it and yet I'd know without any doubt at all what I saw.
 

MarkFL

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It would actually be intellectually irresponsible/dishonest for us to look at something, and decide that something about it has to be true (simply because we cannot conceive of it NOT being true) and then claim that something as knowledge. It is better to say, I don't actually know, than to feign knowledge.
 

MarkFL

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How would you propose to demonstrate the truth of "I love my wife"? A cynic might look at the things I do for her and conclude I was hoping for some kind of payback rather than acting out of love.

On a comparable note, how would I demonstrate the truth of "I saw a bald eagle in the park the other day"? Someone who didn't want to believe that eagles visited the park, or that I had seen one, could merely reject whatever I said about it and yet I'd know without any doubt at all what I saw.

I would have to take your word on whether you actually love your wife or not. I have experienced love myself, and so I don't think it too extraordinary that you have as well. I have seen eagles too, so neither of these demands skepticism, unless they come from someone we know to be a habitual liar. If you tell me you saw a creature from another world in the park, then I would require evidence of that before I would consider it as possibly real.
 
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