Summary of the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses

[MoreCoffee]

This post is not intended to promote the teachings described. It is intended to give a summarised statement of some of the major beliefs of Jehovah's witnesses with a view to analysing them and offering comment on one or all of them with support from the holy scriptures and commentary on how Jehovah's witnesses view certain passages used to prove their views.

Teaching #1 - what follows is what Jehovah's witnesses teach and believe (source)

What Happens When You Die?

The Bible’s answer

The Bible says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:4) Therefore, when we die, we cease to exist. The dead can’t think, act, or feel anything.

“To dust you will return”

God explained what happens when we die when he spoke to the first man, Adam. Because Adam was disobedient, God said to him: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Before God created Adam “out of dust from the ground,” Adam did not exist. (Genesis 2:7) Likewise, when Adam died, he returned to dust and ceased to exist.

The same thing happens to those who die now. Speaking of both humans and animals, the Bible says: “They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.”—Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20.

Death is not necessarily the end of everything

The Bible often compares death to sleep. (Psalm 13:3; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:60) A person who is fast asleep is unaware of what is happening around him. Likewise, the dead are not conscious of anything. Yet, the Bible teaches that God can awaken the dead as if from sleep and give them life again. (Job 14:13-15) For those whom God resurrects, death is not the end of everything.​

 

[MoreCoffee]

I intended this post for the world religions forum, I must have clicked the wrong forum and without noticing it created it here. Would one of the kind moderators move it to its proper place, please

 

[Lamb]

I have moved the thread as requested

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do you think is the best reply to this statement? The Bible says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:4) Therefore, when we die, we cease to exist. The dead can’t think, act, or feel anything.

In the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust) the verses say

[Ecclesiastes 9:4-6] There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. (source)

[Psalm 146:1-10] Praise Jah! Let my whole being praise Jehovah.I will praise Jehovah all my life.I will sing praises to my God as long as I live.Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;On that very day his thoughts perish. Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper,Whose hope is in Jehovah his God,The Maker of heaven and earth,Of the sea, and of all that is in them,The One who always remains faithful,The One securing justice for those defrauded,The One giving bread to the hungry. Jehovah is releasing the prisoners.Jehovah is opening the eyes of the blind;Jehovah is raising up those bowed down;Jehovah loves the righteous. Jehovah is protecting the foreign residents;He sustains the fatherless child and the widow,But he thwarts the plans of the wicked. Jehovah will be King forever,Your God, O Zion, for generation after generation. Praise Jah! (source)​

Do you think a response pointing to the poetic character of both Ecclesiastes and Psalm 146 would be a waste of time? What passages might you refer to in your reply?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I came across this diagram explaining another teaching of Jehovah's witnesses. This one is about end times. Being an adventist group Jehovah's witnesses place emphasis on dates and calculations related to the last days.

The text that goes with it says

22 WHY IS THE YEAR 1914 SO IMPORTANT?

The prophecy in Daniel chapter 4 teaches us that God would set up his Kingdom in 1914.

The prophecy: Jehovah gave King Nebuchadnezzar a prophetic dream about a large tree that was chopped down. In the dream, a band of iron and copper was put around the tree’s stump to stop it from growing for a period of “seven times.” After that, the tree would grow again.—Daniel 4:1, 10-16.

What the prophecy means for us: The tree represents God’s rulership. For many years, Jehovah used kings in Jerusalem to rule over the nation of Israel. (1 Chronicles 29:23) But those kings became unfaithful, and their rulership ended. Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 607 B.C.E. That was the start of the “seven times.” (2 Kings 25:1, 8-10; Ezekiel 21:25-27) When Jesus said, “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled,” he was talking about the “seven times.” (Luke 21:24) So the “seven times” did not end when Jesus was on earth. Jehovah promised to appoint a King at the end of the “seven times.” The rulership of this new King, Jesus, would bring great blessings for God’s people all over the earth, forever.—Luke 1:30-33.

The length of the “seven times”: The “seven times” lasted for 2,520 years. If we count 2,520 years from the year 607 B.C.E., we end up at the year 1914. That was when Jehovah made Jesus, the Messiah, King of God’s Kingdom in heaven.

How do we get the number 2,520? The Bible says that three and a half times equal 1,260 days. (Revelation 12:6, 14) So “seven times” is double that number, or 2,520 days. The 2,520 days are equal to 2,520 years because of the prophetic rule “a day for a year.”—Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6​

(source)

I would appreciate comment from any who are interested in contributing.

 

[Pedrito]

It is interesting to see MoreCoffee playing the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” card once again.

Each time we have seen it played in the past, it has been in reply to Holy Scripture (e.g. as offered by visionary) that he appears to have been unable to refute. (He made no attempt to refute it, anyway – he just used the common “Jehovah’s Witnesses” (shudder, shudder) scare tactic.)

So why play the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” card again? This time out of the blue, note.

Could it be because it has been suggested that people look into all of God’s Holy Inspired Revelation, including what is normally referred to as the Old Testament (that portion of God’s whole Inspired Revelation that is normally given less emphasis, as though it were less important or less inspired)? Look and see how well the Old Testament and New testament actually agree on key issues?

Are we in fact witnessing an attempted preemptive strike, a psychological Mickey Finn as it were – a ploy designed to discount in people’s minds, a selection of plain, unequivocal statements inspired by God? Could it have been deemed important to colour those statements before people discovered them or realised their real meaning?

MoreCoffee’s apparent attempt to indelibly link in our minds, clear and plain statements from God, with Jehovah’s Witnesses (shudder, shudder) doctrine, should make us prick our ears up and take a closer look at those statements. Could it be that in the absence of precoloration, they reveal some awkward truth?

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Why don’t we have a look at those verses as published in the DRB version – the updated Douay–Rheims (Catholic) Bible, as published in1889 (and presented in E-Sword)?

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Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Note: No other translation I have found has the word “more”. The dead “know nothing”, they say. Full stop.)

Psalm 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20 19 Therefore the death of man, and of beasts is one, and the condition of them both is equal: as man dieth, so they also die: all things breathe alike, and man hath nothing more than beast: all things are subject to vanity.
20 And all things go to one place: of earth they were made, and into earth they return together.

Psalm 13:3 Consider, and hear me, O Lord, my God. Enlighten my eyes, that I never sleep in death:

John 11:11-14 11: 11 These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead.

Acts 7:60 And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not his sin to their charge: And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

Job 14:13-15 13 Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?
14 Shall man that is dead, thinkest thou, live again? all the days in which I am now in warfare, I expect until my change come.
15 Thou shalt call me, and I will answer thee: to the work of thy hands thou shalt reach out thy right hand.
(Protect him in hell? Could there be a translation problem?)

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If we look at the above verses in various translations, do we see a consistency emerge?

Has God been trying to tell us something?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jehovah's witnesses are not scary [MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION].

 

[Rens]

What about the opposite texts, like: I'm a God of the living, not the dead. Samuel appearing to Saul, the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus preached to the captives in hell, He wasn't 3 days not there all of a sudden, He would be 3 days in the heart of the earth like Jonah. I think those other texts mean that they have no idea what's going on here. It is weird, but there's a lot of opposite texts and people just pluck the half out of it and ignore the others.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What about the opposite texts, like: I'm a God of the living, not the dead. Samuel appearing to Saul, the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus preached to the captives in hell, He wasn't 3 days not there all of a sudden, He would be 3 days in the heart of the earth like Jonah. I think those texts mean that they have no idea what's going on here. It is weird, but there's a lot of opposite texts and people just pluck the half out of it and ignore the others.

Yes, some do appear to take some texts and make their theology from them while ignoring other texts that contradict their theology.

 

[MoreCoffee]

An important thought in discussing the nature of souls and their state between death and the resurrection on the last day is that Christians do in fact believe that there is a resurrection and that eternal life is a promised gift from the Lord to the faithful.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith, it is impossible to please God. For whoever approaches God must believe that he exists, and that he rewards those who seek him.

Matthew 22:31-32 [31] But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken by God, saying to you: [32] "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."​

When the Lord Jesus spoke the words recorded in Matthew 22 he referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as living and not as dead despite the evident truth that they had died with respect to earthly life.

Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 [8] And so, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me, his prisoner. Instead, collaborate with the Gospel in accord with the virtue of God, [9] who has freed us and has called us to his holy vocation, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the ages of time. [10] And this has now been made manifest by the illumination of our Savior Jesus Christ, who certainly has destroyed death, and who has also illuminated life and incorruption through the Gospel.

See also Luke 16:22; 23:43; Matthew 16:26; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23; Hebrews 9:27; 12:23.​

Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face: (See 1 John 3:2; compare with ⇒ 1 Corinthians 13:12; ⇒ Revelation 22:4.)

To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." the elect live "in Christ," ( Phil 1:23; cf. ⇒ John 14:3; ⇒ 1 Thess 4:17.) but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. (Rev 2:17.)

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will.

Communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9.)

 

[Rens]

And we are already seated in the heavenlies with Him, we have passed from death to life.

 

[Pedrito]

MoreCoffee in Post #4 on Page 1:

In the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust) the verses say

That was after he asked the following:
“What do you think is the best reply to this statement? The Bible says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:4) Therefore, when we die, we cease to exist. The dead can’t think, act, or feel anything.”

(My reply would be, what are the other God-inspired statements, in both the Old and the New Testaments, that agree with and therefore support those statements?

Would anybody be willing to list them for the rest of us to see?)

But why say “the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust)”? Is it really that unreliable? I have to ask because that is not one of the Bibles I refer to.

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Let’s look at the first set of verses that MoreCoffee gave from that translation (New World Translation – NWT) [verses listed individually for clarity]. Oh, and the same verses from the Catholic 1889 Douay-Rheims Bible – DRB – displayed with them for comparison purposes. And the New American Standard Bible – NASB – for sake of completeness.

[Ecclesiastes 9:4 NWT] There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion.
[Ecclesiastes 9:4 NASB] For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
[Ecclesiastes 9:4 DRB] There is no man that liveth always, or that hopeth for this: a living dog is better than a dead lion.

The NWT and NASB are in agreement

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[Ecclesiastes 9:5 NWT] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.
[Ecclesiastes 9:5 NASB] For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
[Ecclesiastes 9:5 DRB] For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.

The NWT and NASB are in agreement once more.

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[Ecclesiastes 9:6 NWT] Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.
[Ecclesiastes 9:6 NASB] Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
[Ecclesiastes 9:6 DRB] Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun.

So, the NWT appears to agree with both the NASB and DRB.

(But note that the NASB disagrees with the majority of translations I have looked at, by using “zeal” instead of “jealousy” or “envy”; and the DRB adds a clause referring to this world.)

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So, at least in these verses chosen by MoreCoffee, “the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust)” seems to be totally reliable.

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Anyway, let the Reader pick their favourite translation. What is God’s message to the Reader in these verses?


Continued ...

 

[Pedrito]

… Continued

In my former post (Post #12 on Page 2) I offered:

MoreCoffee in Post #4 on Page 1:

In the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust) the verses say

That was after he asked the following:
“What do you think is the best reply to this statement? The Bible says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:4) Therefore, when we die, we cease to exist. The dead can’t think, act, or feel anything.”

(My reply would be, what are the other God-inspired statements, in both the Old and the New Testaments, that agree with and therefore support those statements?

Would anybody be willing to list them for the rest of us to see?)

But why say “the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust)”? Is it really that unreliable? I have to ask because that is not one of the Bibles I refer to.

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Now let’s look at the verse underlined by MoreCoffee in the second set of verses he gave from that translation (New World Translation – NWT). Once again, the same verse from the Catholic 1889 Douay-Rheims Bible – DRB – displayed with them for comparison purposes. And the New American Standard Bible – NASB – for sake of completeness.

[Psalm 146:4 NWT] His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;On that very day his thoughts perish.
[Psalm 146:4 NASB] His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
[Psalm 146:4 DRB] His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.

Do I detect strong strong mutual agreement? I think so.

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Therefore, in this verse as well, a verse chosen by MoreCoffee, “the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust)” seems to be totally reliable.

As a consequence, is it not sensible for us to ask, why did MoreCoffee choose to play the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” card with respect to this verse (and with respect to the other verses reviewed in my former post)? Could it have been a psychological ploy to diminish the danger that those God-inspired statements present to doctrines that MoreCoffee deems important?

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So again I say, let the Reader pick their favourite translation. What is God’s message to the them in this verse?

Is it the same as God’s message in the other verses we saw in Post #12 on Page 2?

 

[Pedrito]

MoreCoffee, Post #7 on Page 1:

Jehovah's witnesses are not scary @Pedrito.

Indeed not.

However, by playing the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” card so many times, MoreCoffee has convinced Pedrito that he (MoreCoffee) is fully aware of something – fully aware that in Protestant circles (especially “Evangelical” circles), Jehovahs Witnesses are indeed so portrayed – portrayed that way strongly – both directly and indirectly. (Strong negative emotion is carefully planted within the psyche of those organisations’ members.)

MoreCoffee appears to have been playing on that preconditioning to implant negative emotional responses to God-inspired statements that he sees as being in conflict with his church’s stance.

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I agree with MoreCoffee’s statement above – Jehovah’s Witnesses are not scary. In fact, some of their understandings appear to reflect Inspired Scripture more closely than do the corresponding doctrines of other Christian religious groups, which are based on extra-Biblical, post-apostolic traditions.


We actually owe MoreCoffee a vote of thanks for so admirably pointing out to us a few of the many God-inspired statements that are in conflict with identifiable doctrines originating from “tradition”.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #5 on Page 1, MoreCoffee made a very good, if laboured, point.

He presented information about one of the aspects of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teaching that can be considered lamentable.

The identification of the year 1914 as having particular significance, based on prophetic calculations, is one of their cornerstones. (In the 19th Century, prophetic date calculations were relatively common, as pointed out by MoreCoffee. Being an adventist group Jehovah's witnesses place emphasis on dates and calculations related to the last days.)

Jehovah’s Witnesses have retained that date, even though their beliefs about what that date signifies have apparently changed over time.

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However, it would be remiss of us not to acknowledge two related considerations.

The first is that in the 1970’s, in many “Evangelical” circles at least, the European Common Market, with its initial six members, was being strongly (almost vehemently) promoted, based on prophetic understanding, to be the coming revived Roman Empire or Beast of Revelation, once a given number of countries had joined in.

However, once that number was reached, and then exceeded, without the prophetic preaching being fulfilled, the matter was quickly and quietly swept under the carpet. The churches which promoted or tolerated that preaching within their ranks, would now state that it was never “official teaching” (something like the RCC at times), or deny that it ever occurred in their pulpits. (But some of us remember.)

So “Evangelical” churches have also been guilty of jumping on the “prophecy” bandwagon.

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The second consideration is, if my investigations are correct, that one of the original JW teachings was that 1914 would represent “the end of the Gentile times”; gentile monarchies would be destroyed; and the seeds of Israel once again becoming a nation in the Promised Land, would be sown.

It is interesting to note that 1914 saw the start of what is called the First World War.

And the result of that war? Monarchies were destroyed. The nation Israel was restored (at least in part).

So what are we left with?

There is more evidence for the JW belief in the significance of the year 1914, than there is for the RCC beliefs of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary, for instance.

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And while I am in no way promoting the Jehovah’s Witnesses nor their perspective of 1914, the comparison should present some significant food for thought.

Should it not?

 

[Pedrito]

Rens, Post #11 on Page 2:

And we are already seated in the heavenlies with Him...

That begs a very logical question.

If we are already seated in the heavenlies with Him, how come we go to the heavenlies to be with Him when we die?

If Rens is already seated in the heavenlies with Him now, Pedrito invites Rens to tell us what it is like there.

If Rens is already seated in the heavenlies with Him, Pedrito invites Rens to tell us on what she is resting her keyboard. Or if she is using a smartphone, what brand it is, and what network is connecting her to the Earthly internet.

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It would seem rather obvious that that extract from Scripture has nothing at all to with the question of whether people remain alive and go to Heaven when they die, or are dead until the resurrection.

What do the appropriate, in-context statements in Scripture say about that?

(We have already seen some, courtesy of MoreCoffee. Haven’t we? But what about all the others?)

 

[MoreCoffee]

To "beg the question" is to offer a circular argument. The phrase does not mean "to invite a question" as your use of appears to suggest.

Your replies suggest that you are in sympathy with the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses. Have you been studying with them? Or do you adhere to similar teachings that arise from another group?

 

[psalms 91]

If we are in Christ then we are with Him spiritually and He is seated in the heavenlies, it is not Chriost in us but being in Christ

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #17 on Page 2, MoreCoffee stated:

To "beg the question" is to offer a circular argument. The phrase does not mean "to invite a question" as your use of appears to suggest.

MoreCoffee is quite correct. Pedrito used the term incorrectly in Post #16 on Page 2 because he wasn’t aware of its proper implications.

Morecoffee correctly understood Pedrito’s intended meaning to be “invites” or “triggers” or “prompts” a question.

Pedrito thanks MoreCoffee for the correction.

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In that same post, MoreCoffee stated:

Your replies suggest that you are in sympathy with the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses. Have you been studying with them? Or do you adhere to similar teachings that arise from another group?

The background to that is interesting.

In early posts in this thread, ModeCoffee presented extracts from Holy Scripture and associated them with teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some of those extracts were stated to be from “the Bible that Jehovah's witnesses use (and trust)”, as though they had suffered some sort of bias in translation. However, when compared with other translations, those verses were found to be reliably translated, and all the verses offered when looked at in various translations are found to be remarkably consistent, as though God is trying to tell us something – as though He has a definite message for us.

So why associate those verses with Jehovah’s witnesses? Why bother?

Pedrito has noticed that whenever someone presents Holy Scripture that appears to contradict doctrines that MoreCoffee cherishes, he plays the Jehovah’s Witnesses card. It is worthy of note that normally when people use techniques like that, it is an attempt to diminish the impact of particular Holy Scripture in people’s eyes – to sway other people’s emotions hoping to nullify the effect of evidence for which the perpetrator has no answer. Like court room lawyers attempting to sway juries.


So whenever we see MoreCoffee drawing attention to Jehovah’s Witnesses, we can be sure that he is attempting to sway people against inconvenient Scripture, or against someone who is bringing that inconvenient (but God-inspired) Scripture to people’s attention, or against someone who is stripping emotional taint away from Holy Scripture that has been presented in a negatively biassed light.

Continued...

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as the Bible is not at all what Jehovah's Witnesses believe in. As I will admit it is convincing but not to that point. As God is the Author of the Bible and our faith!