How do you reconcile these two verses?

[MoreCoffee]

How do you reconcile these two verses?

Genesis 28:12-13 [12] He had a dream: there was a ladder, planted on the ground with its top reaching to heaven; and God's angels were going up and down on it. [13] And there was Yahweh, standing beside him and saying, 'I, Yahweh, am the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you are lying I shall give to you and your descendants.

&

Exodus 6:2-3 [2] God spoke to Moses and said to him, 'I am Yahweh. [3] To Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai, but I did not make my name Yahweh known to them.

 

[Rens]

Maybe not Yahweh Shammah, Shalom, etc. I am is Yahweh, I am God is different than I am your Father. I am El Shaddai also has I am (Yahweh) in it, otherwise you can't make the sentence.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Maybe not Yahweh Shammah, Shalom, etc. I am is Yahweh, I am God is different than I am your Father. I am El Shaddai also has I am (Yahweh) in it, otherwise you can't make the sentence.

But Genesis 28:13 says he told Jacob his name is Yahweh and Exodus 6:3 says that Jacob didn't know his name is Yahweh.

 

[Josiah]

Names were not legal monikers until a couple of hundred years ago..... In most cultures, names are meant to be more descriptions (much like our "nicknames") or honors. It was not at all uncommon to have several of them (typically each with a MEANING - the point). Simon/Peter..... Saul/Paul..... Abram/Abraham..... you know.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Names were not legal monikers until a couple of hundred years ago..... In most cultures, names are meant to be more descriptions (much like our "nicknames") or honors. It was not at all uncommon to have several of them (typically each with a MEANING - the point). Simon/Peter..... Saul/Paul..... Abram/Abraham..... you know.

The two passages use Yahweh as the name, one passage says God told Jacob his name is Yahweh and the other passage says he didn't.

 

[psalms 91]

MC are you a Jesuit, you remind me of one

 

[Rens]

But Genesis 28:13 says he told Jacob his name is Yahweh and Exodus 6:3 says that Jacob didn't know his name is Yahweh.

Oh those naughty translators always. Must be their fault.
When I have no idea I simply blame the translators.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh those naughty translators always. Must be their fault.
When I have no idea I simply blame the translators.

As good a policy as any

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC are you a Jesuit, you remind me of one

Would that God had called me to that high calling, but alas no, I am naught but a simple layman.

 

[Lamb]

It's not about the name but instead the full meaning behind the name. That's the key in understanding why Exodus SEEMS to contradict Genesis, but it does not.

 

[Josiah]

It's not about the name but instead the full meaning behind the name. That's the key in understanding why Exodus SEEMS to contradict Genesis, but it does not.

Exactly. IMO, there is simply an attempt to impose a very, very, very modern concept of name upon the OT where it clearly doesn't exist.

As I stated in an earlier post in this thread....

Names were not legal monikers until a couple of hundred years ago..... In most cultures, names are meant to be more descriptions (much like our "nicknames") or honors. It was not at all uncommon to have several of them (typically each with a MEANING - the point). Simon/Peter..... Saul/Paul..... Abram/Abraham..... you know.

Thank you.



- Josiah




.

 

[Pedrito]

Lämmchen had the right idea in Post #10 on Page 1:

It's not about the name but instead the full meaning behind the name. That's the key in understanding why Exodus SEEMS to contradict Genesis, but it does not.

To be a little more precise, Yahweh (YHWH) is both a descriptive title meaning "self existing" and like expressions in English, and God's self-revealed name.

When God speaks of Himself prior to Exodus 6:3, He is using the word in a descriptive fashion, a title if you like.

When the author of the Torah (except for the end bit), Moses, used the term in the narrative (other than when God is speaking of Himself) prior to Exodus 6:3, because he was already aware that YHWH was God's revealed name as well as His title, he could have been using the word as a name retrospectively, or still as a title. We cannot know for sure, and it makes no difference.

So in reality, the verses need no reconciling.


As in many cases (some of which have been pointed out elsewhere), proper context and a modicum of understanding are all that is required to make God's Holy Revelation a smoothly integrated message where all passages slot in without difficulty.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How do you reconcile these two verses?

Genesis 28:12-13 [12] He had a dream: there was a ladder, planted on the ground with its top reaching to heaven; and God's angels were going up and down on it. [13] And there was Yahweh, standing beside him and saying, 'I, Yahweh, am the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you are lying I shall give to you and your descendants.

&

Exodus 6:2-3 [2] God spoke to Moses and said to him, 'I am Yahweh. [3] To Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai, but I did not make my name Yahweh known to them.

Lämmchen had the right idea in Post #10 on Page 1:

To be a little more precise, Yahweh (YHWH) is both a descriptive title meaning "self existing" and like expressions in English, and God's self-revealed name.

When God speaks of Himself prior to Exodus 6:3, He is using the word in a descriptive fashion, a title if you like.

When the author of the Torah (except for the end bit), Moses, used the term in the narrative (other than when God is speaking of Himself) prior to Exodus 6:3, because he was already aware that YHWH was God's revealed name as well as His title, he could have been using the word as a name retrospectively, or still as a title. We cannot know for sure, and it makes no difference.

So in reality, the verses need no reconciling.


As in many cases (some of which have been pointed out elsewhere), proper context and a modicum of understanding are all that is required to make God's Holy Revelation a smoothly integrated message where all passages slot in without difficulty.

Neither passage mentions meaning being the missing element. Both passages explicitly mention the name Yahweh. The first mentions the name Yahweh as revealed to Jacob while the second says that the name Yahweh was not revealed to Jacob. How do you account for that?

 

[Rens]

Nm

 

[Rens]

Oh lol it was a rhetorical question.

http://www.globalchurchofgod.co.uk/q-a-13026/

 

[Pedrito]

Throwing doubt on God’s Complete and Internally Consistent Revelation (the Bible), can be a tricky way of boosting the acceptance of “tradition”. If the Bible contains contradictions, then tradition is obviously needed to explain it. “Is that not so?”.

Take for instance, MoreCoffee’s Post #13 on Page 2:

Neither passage mentions meaning being the missing element.

(Which I must confess I don’t quite understand.) Followed by:

Both passages explicitly mention the name Yahweh. The first mentions the name Yahweh as revealed to Jacob while the second says that the name Yahweh was not revealed to Jacob. How do you account for that?

In fact, as pointed out in Post #12 on Page 2, the Hebrew word “יְהוֹוָה” is a description (“(the) self-Existent or Eternal”). As revealed to Moses (but not before then), God revealed that that descriptive word was also to be used as His name.

So, consistently translated, Genesis 28:13 becomes: ex KJV, NIV, (emphasis added)

And, behold, the Self Existing One stood above it, and said, I am the Self Existing One, God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed

There above it stood the Self Existing One, and he said: "I am the Self Existing One, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.

The above serves to highlight the fact that translators are not necessarily well informed students of Biblical truth. The two disciplines are different. Don’t forget that it is acknowledged that chapter and verse divisions are in some cases abysmal. So therefore, the learned people who implemented those divisions can also be seen to have lacked proper Biblical understanding.

Food for thought?


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Also, it may serve to note how the DRB and DRC Catholic Bibles render Genesis 28:13:

And the Lord leaning upon the ladder saying to him: I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: The land, wherein thou sleepest, I will give to thee and to thy seed.

And the Lord leaning upon the ladder, saying to him: I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac; the land, wherein thou sleepest, I will give to thee and to thy seed.

No capital “LORD”, and no “Yahweh” nor “Jehovah”.

And Exodus 6:2,3:

2 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: I am the Lord
3 That appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty: and my name ADONAI I did not shew them.

2 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: I am the Lord,
3 That appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, by the name of God Almighty; and my name ADONAI I did not shew them.

More food for thought?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pedrito, Yahweh or self-existent-one either way the name was revealed to Jacob in Genesis 28:12-13 and either way Exodus 6:2-3 says it wasn't.

 

[Pedrito]

MoreCoffee in Post #17 on Page 2:

Pedrito, Yahweh or self-existent-one either way the name was revealed to Jacob in Genesis 28:12-13 and either way Exodus 6:2-3 says it wasn't.

I would suggest that that statement lacks logic. The Hebrew word “יְהוֹוָה” was used as a descriptive title in Genesis 28:13, and a revealed name in Exodus 6:3. Not a name or a descriptive title in both places.

But let's have a closer look at the implications. Either:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God got it wrong when He said (Exodus 6:3 – KJV, Rotherham, NIV):

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

I appeared, therefore, unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as GOD Almighty,––although, by my name Yahweh, was I not made known to them;

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.

(If God got it wrong, that would make the Bible internally inconsistent, and allow "tradition" to get a foot in the door. Aaah.)

OR​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The translators got it wrong by neglecting to translate the Hebrew word “יְהוֹוָה” in Genesis 28:13, but rendering it as a name instead.

(If the translators got it wrong, that would make the Bible internally consistent (as it actually is in the original language). And seeing that much has been made of "Sola Scriptura" in another thread, I suspect that most "Protestant" readers (among others) would agree with that assessment.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So folks, should we no longer consider the Bible as God's inspired revelation to us because it is inconsistent?

Or should we accede to its divine origin, and admit that apparent inconsistencies originate from human perspectives and human lack of understanding? (Those inconsistencies would necessarily include passages and statements in the Bible that do not fit into existing doctrine sets.)

I think I have made it very clear to date, what my personal perspective is.

(Hopefully no-one is offended by that conviction.)

 

[psalms 91]

MoreCoffee in Post #17 on Page 2:


I would suggest that that statement lacks logic. The Hebrew word “יְהוֹוָה” was used as a descriptive title in Genesis 28:13, and a revealed name in Exodus 6:3. Not a name or a descriptive title in both places.

But let's have a closer look at the implications. Either:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God got it wrong when He said (Exodus 6:3 – KJV, Rotherham, NIV):





(If God got it wrong, that would make the Bible internally inconsistent, and allow "tradition" to get a foot in the door. Aaah.)

OR​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The translators got it wrong by neglecting to translate the Hebrew word “יְהוֹוָה” in Genesis 28:13, but rendering it as a name instead.

(If the translators got it wrong, that would make the Bible internally consistent (as it actually is in the original language). And seeing that much has been made of "Sola Scriptura" in another thread, I suspect that most "Protestant" readers (among others) would agree with that assessment.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So folks, should we no longer consider the Bible as God's inspired revelation to us because it is inconsistent?

Or should we accede to its divine origin, and admit that apparent inconsistencies originate from human perspectives and human lack of understanding? (Those inconsistencies would necessarily include passages and statements in the Bible that do not fit into existing doctrine sets.)

I think I have made it very clear to date, what my personal perspective is.

(Hopefully no-one is offended by that conviction.)

Nope not at all I am a lot more offended by people trying to shake peoples belief in the inspired word of God

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee in Post #17 on Page 2:


I would suggest that that statement lacks logic. The Hebrew word “יְהוֹוָה” was used as a descriptive title in Genesis 28:13, and a revealed name in Exodus 6:3. Not a name or a descriptive title in both places....

Genesis 28:12-13 [12] He had a dream: there was a ladder, planted on the ground with its top reaching to heaven; and God's angels were going up and down on it. [13] And there was Yahweh, standing beside him and saying, 'I, Yahweh, am the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you are lying I shall give to you and your descendants.

&

Exodus 6:2-3 [2] God spoke to Moses and said to him, 'I am Yahweh. [3] To Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai, but I did not make my name Yahweh known to them.

the use of the word name is in the verse from Exodus and not in the verse from Genesis. Are you contending that because name is in Exodus that Yahweh is a name while in Genesis because name is not used Yahweh is not a name?