The scape goat - somebody to blame.

MoreCoffee

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In the old testament there is a scape goat. On it's head all the sins of the people are placed and it is driven out of the camp of Israel. It has become a symbol for somebody to blame. If you've watched the Hunger Games films the same principle is at work. Somebody is chosen and forced to fight the battles that the "nation" is too afraid to fight. They are scapegoated. Is there any element of that present in our religion today?
 

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The church organist takes the blame when things go wrong in the service :rofl3: J/K I'm really not awake enough to answer serious questions.
 

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Obama blames Trump for terrorist attacks on US soil, does that count?
 

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In the old testament there is a scape goat. On it's head all the sins of the people are placed and it is driven out of the camp of Israel. It has become a symbol for somebody to blame. If you've watched the Hunger Games films the same principle is at work. Somebody is chosen and forced to fight the battles that the "nation" is too afraid to fight. They are scapegoated. Is there any element of that present in our religion today?

Looking back at this I know that people sometimes don't want to take responsibility for their own actions so instead they blame Satan instead of their own sin.
 

Josiah

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In the old testament there is a scape goat. On it's head all the sins of the people are placed and it is driven out of the camp of Israel. It has become a symbol for somebody to blame. If you've watched the Hunger Games films the same principle is at work. Somebody is chosen and forced to fight the battles that the "nation" is too afraid to fight. They are scapegoated. Is there any element of that present in our religion today?


The "scapegoat" is a type of Christ.



- Josiah
 

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The "scapegoat" is a type of Christ.



- Josiah

Are you sure about that [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]? Isn't the passover lamb the usual sacrifice regarded as typical of the Lord Jesus Christ?
 

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The "scapegoat" is a type of Christ.



- Josiah
Yeshua is not any kind of scapegoat.. you can not blame Him for anything.
 

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Yeshua is not any kind of scapegoat.. you can not blame Him for anything.

But they transferred their sins on the scapegoat who did nothing wrong.
 

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Looking back at this I know that people sometimes don't want to take responsibility for their own actions so instead they blame Satan instead of their own sin.

Once someone saw the devil sitting in a corner, crying.
What's up Mr. Devil?
They blame me for everything.
 

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You can always blame your partner for everything LOL.
 

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The "scapegoat" is a type of Christ.



- Josiah


This is true in that He took all our sins and carried them away to the cross so they can be atoned for.
 

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This is true in that He took all our sins and carried them away to the cross so they can be atoned for.

The scapegoat is the one blamed after the atonement is accomplished, Yeshua took on the sins and carried them to the cross to be atoned for way before the sins are laid on the scapegoats head on Yom Kippur.
 

Josiah

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Yeshua is not any kind of scapegoat.. you can not blame Him for anything.

I don't have to "blame" Him, He FREELY TOOK all my sins upon Himself.... and died for THEM. It is only BECAUSE He took them, He suffered for them, He "took the rap" for them, He died for them, that I may have forgiveness, justification, eternal life.
 

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I don't have to "blame" Him, He FREELY TOOK all my sins upon Himself.... and died for THEM. It is only BECAUSE He took them, He suffered for them, He "took the rap" for them, He died for them, that I may have forgiveness, justification, eternal life.

Took all your sins upon himself? I've read in the holy scriptures that Christ Jesus died for the unjust, that he redeems his people, that Christ died for our sins, that he gave himself for our sins, that he purged our sins, that he bore our sins in his body upon the tree, and so forth. I cannot say I have seen a verse saying that the Lord Jesus Christ "TOOK all my sins upon Himself".
 

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Took all your sins upon himself? I've read in the holy scriptures that Christ Jesus died for the unjust, that he redeems his people, that Christ died for our sins, that he gave himself for our sins, that he purged our sins, that he bore our sins in his body upon the tree, and so forth. I cannot say I have seen a verse saying that the Lord Jesus Christ "TOOK all my sins upon Himself".

What's the difference between taking our sins on Him and bear our sins in His body?


And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

He took the cup.
 

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I don't have to "blame" Him, He FREELY TOOK all my sins upon Himself.... and died for THEM. It is only BECAUSE He took them, He suffered for them, He "took the rap" for them, He died for them, that I may have forgiveness, justification, eternal life.

That doesn't make Him the scapregoat. The scapegoat had the sins laid on his head after the sacrifice for YHVH. The scapegoat did not get sacrificed. The scapegoat is not representative of Yeshua and His ministry. He is the representative of Satan and what happens to him.
 

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That doesn't make Him the scapregoat. The scapegoat had the sins laid on his head after the sacrifice for YHVH. The scapegoat did not get sacrificed. The scapegoat is not representative of Yeshua and His ministry. He is the representative of Satan and what happens to him.

Doesn't God forbid anything of Satan to be presented to Him? I disagree with your premise.

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
 

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What's the difference between taking our sins on Him and bear our sins in His body?


And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

He took the cup.

Bearing sins upon the tree (cross) and the other expressions used in the holy scriptures to describe redemption and the cross of Christ's saving work do not necessarily imply a transfer of sins from sinful men & women to the sinless Lord Jesus Christ while the expression "TOOK all my sins upon Himself" does appear to imply a transfer. Saint Peter expresses the idea of bearing our sins this way:
He himself bore our sins in his body upon the tree, so that we, having died to sin, would live for justice. By his wounds, you have been healed. For you were like wandering sheep. But now you have been turned back toward the Pastor and the Bishop of your souls. [1 Peter 2:24-25]​
Bearing our sins appears to mean a transfer of punishment from sinners to the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross. And this would mean that the Lord Jesus Christ did what Isaiah the prophet teaches in this passage:
Truly, he has taken away our weaknesses, and he himself has carried our sorrows. And we thought of him as if he were a leper, or as if he had been struck by God and humiliated. But he himself was wounded because of our iniquities. He was bruised because of our wickedness. The discipline of our peace was upon him. And by his wounds, we are healed. We have all gone astray like sheep; each one has turned aside to his own way. And the Lord has placed all our iniquity[SUP]*[/SUP] upon him. He was offered up, because it was his own will. And he did not open his mouth. He will be led like a sheep to the slaughter. And he will be mute like a lamb before his shearer. For he will not open his mouth. He was lifted up from anguish and judgement. Who will describe his life? For he has been cut off from the land of the living. Because of the wickedness of my people, I have struck him down. And he will be given a place with the impious for his burial, and with the rich for his death, though he has done no iniquity, nor was deceit in his mouth. But it was the will of the Lord to crush him with infirmity. If he lays down his life because of sin, he will see offspring with long lives, and the will of the Lord will be directed by his hand. Because his soul has laboured, he will see and be satisfied. By his knowledge, my just servant will himself justify many, and he himself will carry their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot to him a great number. And he will divide the spoils of the strong. For he has handed over his life to death, and he was reputed among criminals. And he has taken away the sins of many, and he has prayed for the transgressors. [Isaiah 53:4-12]​
But if "TOOK all my sins upon Himself" is intended to mean what is said in the blue underlined text from Isaiah then I am not sure that it is a good expression. The expression "the Lord has placed all our iniquity upon him" could mean a transfer of sins and it could mean a transfer of punishments so I prefer to leave the question open and let the holy scriptures express the variety of ideas it contains about redemption without nailing it down to one very theologically constrained meaning.

Perhaps brother [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] does not intend to teach the penal substitution theory of the atonement and if he doesn't then I am wrong to read it into his expression. Many people who use the expression used by [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] do intend to teach the penal substitution theory of the atonement by it.

* - the word translated as iniquity is in Hebrew āwōn (ָעוֹן) and it means: iniquity, evil, guilt, punishment. The punishment that goes with deliberate acts as a consequence is indicated by the word in (Isaiah 53:11).
 
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