Ever Virgin

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION], One of the saints used the word (in Greek) "undefiled"in reference to Mary. Like nearly every word "undefiled" has shades of meaning. I am confident that referring to Blessed Mary as undefiled means no more and no less than that the Blessed Virgin Mary was pure of heart and pure in conduct.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION], One of the saints used the word (in Greek) "undefiled"in reference to Mary. Like nearly every word "undefiled" has shades of meaning. I am confident that referring to Blessed Mary as undefiled means no more and no less than that the Blessed Virgin Mary was pure of heart and pure in conduct.

Assuming that's true, so what? Again, you haven't proven your premise that the loving sharing of marital intimacies "defiles" the wife (but not the husband) so that God caused the defiling of Eve when He commanded such intimacies before the Fall - thus God being the cause of defiling. You haven't proven that to be the case, so you've achieved NOTHING in proving as true that Mary had no sex ever - as a dogmatic fact of highest certainty and importance possible.




.

 

[Rens]

Maybe Joseph was impotent but otherwise it's impossible.

 

[Josiah]

I thank MoreCoffee for reposting (posted Post 205 on Page 21) the information he had presented in a former post. I came to this post late, and had not had time to review all 200-odd posts.

I’m not sure if the references to Mary’s perpetual virginity given by MoreCoffee constitute a complete set for the time period (I only requested the first three), but all bar the proevangelion of James are actually quite late in post-apostolic terms. (Around 248 AD, around 354 AD, around 360 AD and around 374 AD.) A lot can happen in 100 years. 100 years ago, what were cars like? What were planes like? TV? Mobile phones? Electronic games? The internet? Were traffic lights common? What about ball point pens? Sticky tape? Post It Notes? The list goes on.

All the dates mentioned are more than 100 years after the apostles.

But what about the proevangelion of James, dated by MoreCoffee to around 120 AD or earlier? Well, Origen (Origin) is apparently the first “church father” to mention it, and he apparently deemed it dubious.

It would seem that, like most post-apostolic theological development, the supposed perpetual virginity of Mary has the hallmarks of being a devising of Man.

Of course, that false, rejected book never states that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Sure - a long, long, long time AFTER Mary died (and thus it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to learn this normally very, very private, personal tidbit of marriage bed information from her - LONG, LONG after she could have given them permission to share this normally very, very private thing).... yes, some shared personal opinions about this (why, we'll never know) - some that she did have sex, some that she did not. NONE of them had a THING to indicate their opinion was correct.... or that they had permission to share this. And yes, EVENTUALLY - many centuries after Mary died - it came to be a general consensus that Mary never once had sex - although no one ever had ANYTHING whatsoever - ANYTHING AT ALL - to indicate that such is truth.... or that such matters..... or that Mary expressly gave her permission to voice such.... but yes, it became the generally accepted view by the 7th Century. In the RCC, it's regarded as a matter of highest certainty possible and greatest importance possible - but rather than having substantiation to the level claimed, MoreCoffee shows it has nothing. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. To show it's true - to the level claimed or at all - and as a matter of greatest certainty and importance possible. Nothing. It could be that truth just doesn't matter when it comes to Mary or perhaps to sex or perhaps to Dogma in the RCC, but....




.

 

[onlyme]

In Matthew 1 it says Mary 'brought forth her firstborn son' (i.e, the first among others).

 

[psalms 91]

In Matthew 1 it says Mary 'brought forth her firstborn son' (i.e, the first among others).

Truth

 

[Lamb]

In Matthew 1 it says Mary 'brought forth her firstborn son' (i.e, the first among others).

Firstborn is a title, not indicative as one would think of any subsequent children. It was given even to those who had only one son.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why are some so keen to say Blessed Mary has many children?

 

[Lamb]

Why are some so keen to say Blessed Mary has many children?

I'm not one of those. I have absolutely no idea if she remained a virgin or not. I don't see scripture truly give indication either way and some of the verses listed for both sides, when seeing the arguments from the opposite still give no resolution.

 

[psalms 91]

Then lets reverse the question since scripture gives no answer, why do you insist she was aperpetual virgin

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then lets reverse the question since scripture gives no answer, why do you insist she was aperpetual virgin

Because holy tradition does give the answer. Blessed Mary is ever virgin.

 

[psalms 91]

tradition is just that, not Holy Scripture and I will stick to that

 

[onlyme]

Part of it is that Joseph was espoused to Mary and that the time would come when they would come together; this was after the Lord Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost. The implication that somehow it's more appropriate to practise asceticism within marriage rather than have normal relations, is not taught in Scripture.

 

[onlyme]

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:25) NIV

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (Matthew 1:25) KJV

γινώσκω ginōskō know
BDAG know, know about, make acquaintance of; learn (of), ascertain, find out; understand, comprehend; perceive, notice, realize; have sex/marital relations with,; have come to know, know
Louw-Nida to have sexual intercourse with
DBL Greek know; learn; be familiar with; understand; acknowledge; have sexual intercourse
LEH LXX Lexicon to come to know, to perceive; to know; to recognize; to form a judgement, to think; to acknowledge as true; to know carnally
LXGRCANLEX know; to know; to have sex; to know; to learn; to know
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint know; perceive; learn; ידע; know; ראה; see; דַּ֫עַת

So based on the original Greek, there are only two options. Either the NIV is correct in its translation or Joseph was a complete stranger until Jesus was born. Since the later is obviously incorrect and contradicts scripture, the only version that sticks it consummate.


I guess Mary not consummating the marriage until after Jesus was born means that Mary never consummated the marriage?

The use of the word 'until' kind of explains it.

 

[Josiah]

Because holy tradition does give the answer. Blessed Mary is ever virgin.

Which Tradition? That of the Apostles - which is respectful SILENCE? That of everyone who ever even could have spoken with Mary and thus theoretically at least (but EXTREMELY unlikely) would have been told this supremely private, personal matter of marriage intimacy - which is respectful SILENCE? That of the Second Century - lost past the time when anyone could have known this tidbit of marriage bed info and permission from Mary to make it public - which is SILENCE? Or are you talking about the OPINIONS that developed in the 4th and 5th century - some opinating that She DID have sex, some opininating that She did NOT have sex?


See posts 130, 132, 154, 157, 164, 166, 206. All you've evaded.




- Josiah

 

[onlyme]

Which Tradition? That of the Apostles - which is respectful SILENCE? That of everyone who ever even could have spoken with Mary and thus theoretically at least (but EXTREMELY unlikely) would have been told this supremely private, personal matter of marriage intimacy - which is respectful SILENCE? That of the Second Century - lost past the time when anyone could have known this tidbit of marriage bed info and permission from Mary to make it public - which is SILENCE? Or are you talking about the OPINIONS that developed in the 4th and 5th century - some opinating that She DID have sex, some opininating that She did NOT have sex?


See posts 130, 132, 154, 157, 164, 166, 206. All you've evaded.




- Josiah

I think we have to remember Jewish marriage customs; first there was betrothal, then the couple came together. Joseph was told specifically by the angel Gabriel not to put away Mary in the betrothal period; and as regards what they did afterwards, it was all part of married life.

 

[Lamb]

The use of the word 'until' kind of explains it.

There are plenty of other verses in scripture that use the word "until" but do not mean that something changed after the until happened. I think they were listed here earlier in the thread?

 

[onlyme]

There are plenty of other verses in scripture that use the word "until" but do not mean that something changed after the until happened. I think they were listed here earlier in the thread?

1 Cor. 11.26: 'till He come': the Lord's Supper is until He comes back.

 

[onlyme]

tradition is just that, not Holy Scripture and I will stick to that

This is my understanding also.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One poster says "respectful silence" was maintained by the apostles. Apostolic tradition tells us that Blessed Mary is ever virgin.