Ever Virgin

[Rens]

So God had many wives, by the way poligamy in the bible was for the man, not the woman

3 and one divorce

 

[Rens]

http://www.academia.edu/1329711/Thr..._Gods_marriage_to_Judah_Israel_and_the_Church

 

[PezGirl73]

The holy scriptures tell us that saint Joseph received a dream instructing him to marry Blessed Mary so that ought not to be in dispute (see Matthew 1:20). The holy scriptures never call the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of any person save the Lord Jesus Christ. It is speculation on your part to claim any sexual intercourse between saint Joseph and Blessed Mary.

I have enough of a leg to stand on as you do.

My church didn't create a dogmatic doctrine out of thin air about it, though.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have enough of a leg to stand on as you do.

My church didn't create a dogmatic doctrine out of thin air about it, though.

Two thousand years of history is not thin air. Nor is the idea of the virginity of Blessed Mary a speculation. It is a statement in the holy scriptures that holy tradition reaffirms as applicable to the Blessed Mother for all of her earthly life and on into eternity.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is affirmed in the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably around 120 AD being about sixty after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life. The Protoevangelium records that when Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to life-long of virginity.

"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’"" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7, 8-9).​

The point here is that by about 120 AD Blessed Mary's everlasting virginity was already being written about. This is a fact of record. Of course you may choose to disregard it if you want to. Many people disregard the story of the virgin conception and birth of the Lord Jesus Christ despite it being is directly testified to in the holy scriptures.

 

[Rens]

nm

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's weird. So Joseph knew it for years and then all of a sudden he was shocked that she was pregnant and wanted to divorce and an angel had to tell him what was the matter.

The blessed Virgin Mary became pregnant only once. The one time was to bear the Son of God.

 

[Rens]

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/is-the-perpetual-virginity-of-mary-a-biblical-view/

 

[Rens]

The blessed Virgin Mary became pregnant only once. The one time was to bear the Son of God.

Yes I now read the whole chapter. Didn't even know that book existed.

 

[Josiah]

The blessed Virgin Mary became pregnant only once.

So, if you type a sentence it ergo is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, certainty and necessity? I have a hunch that if any non-RCC member typed a sentence - you'd asked for documentation to the level claimed, but when it's YOU, well....?

And btw, the DOGMA is that Mary had no sex ever - not Mary Got Pregnant Once. Stay focused.


See posts # 130, 132, 137.

 

[PezGirl73]

Two thousand years of history is not thin air. Nor is the idea of the virginity of Blessed Mary a speculation. It is a statement in the holy scriptures that holy tradition reaffirms as applicable to the Blessed Mother for all of her earthly life and on into eternity.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is affirmed in the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably around 120 AD being about sixty after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life. The Protoevangelium records that when Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to life-long of virginity.

"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’"" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7, 8-9).​

The point here is that by about 120 AD Blessed Mary's everlasting virginity was already being written about. This is a fact of record. Of course you may choose to disregard it if you want to. Many people disregard the story of the virgin conception and birth of the Lord Jesus Christ despite it being is directly testified to in the holy scriptures.

But we know that she didn't live and work in the temple her whole life. We know that she was with Jesus quite a bit in his ministry.

It's still thin air, MC. C'mon, four gospels and none of them mention this?

 

[MoreCoffee]

But we know that she didn't live and work in the temple her whole life. We know that she was with Jesus quite a bit in his ministry.

It's still thin air, MC. C'mon, four gospels and none of them mention this?

The canonical gospels tell us that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a virgin, that Blessed Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the canonical gospels never say that Blessed Mary is the mother of any person other than the Lord. History testifies that Blessed Mary is ever virgin. These are facts.

 

[psalms 91]

The canonical gospels tell us that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a virgin, that Blessed Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the canonical gospels never say that Blessed Mary is the mother of any person other than the Lord. History testifies that Blessed Mary is ever virgin. These are facts.

Actually no. Fact is she was a virgin nothing says she stayed that way other than the RCC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Actually no. Fact is she was a virgin nothing says she stayed that way other than the RCC.

All of the ancient churches say that the Blessed Virgin Mary is ever virgin. That is the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Arminian, Georgian, Ethiopian, Sudanese, Thomists, and whatever other ancient church says it. That accounts for around 66% to 75% of people who identify as Christians. Your claim is incorrect because it is poorly researched.

 

[Josiah]

All of the ancient churches say that the Blessed Virgin Mary is ever virgin. That is the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Arminian, Georgian, Ethiopian, Sudanese, Thomists, and whatever other ancient church says it. That accounts for around 66% to 75% of people who identify as Christians. Your claim is incorrect because it is poorly researched.

Your claim is questionable because you have NOTHING.... absolutely NOTHING..... to confirm it as true. Friend, Mormons claim that what Mormons claim is true, too.... do you accept that ERGO it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, certainty and necessity because those who believe it believe it? News flash: Those who spread some juicy gossip ALWAYS claim that it's true.... doesn't make it true (nor does that make it not gossip).

Here is what seems truly remarkable: The RC Denomination CLAIMS this is a dogmatic fact of highest importance, certainty and necessity - de fide dogma. But what you so stunningly document - it has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to show that this remarkable piece of normally very private marital intimacy is true. You document there is NOTHING in Scripture that says this.... you display that there is NOTHING in earliest tradition about this..... you can't say how some mysterious unknown person many decades after Mary's death learned of this normally very private, very person bit of bedroom info or how that mysterious unknown one got permission from Mary and Jospeh to make it public..... all you have is EVENTUALLY..... SOMEHOW...... a LONG time later..... those who began to spread this themselves said it was true. How THAT makes it true..... how THAT makes it a matter of highest importance, certainty and necessity, you won't say. You can't say.

What do we get from Catholics instead of anything related to it being true?
1. With God all things are POSSIBLE!!! Okay, but that doesn't mean all things are true.
2. You can't PROVE that she DID have sex!!!! Okay, but that doesn't mean she didn't.
3. LONG after Mary died, those who claimed this as true claimed it as true!!!!! Okay, gossip is always like that.


You (rightly) note the insufficient apologetic of those who claim She did have sex...... but don't notice your apologetic is AT LEAST, AT LEAST as weak, probably weaker. And all along, you just evade the issue of de fide dogma - you need to support this to the level claimed - that this is a matter of highest possible certainty, importance and necessity, instead, you dodge the status entirely. So, you won't support that it's true..... you won't support why it matters as an issue of greatest possible importance and necessity.

The canonical gospels tell us that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a virgin

That is a falsehood. The canonical gospels tell us She was a virgin at the Annunciation and at the birth of our Lord. They say NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about Her being a PERPETUAL virgin, Her virginal state at the moment of Her death or undeath (depending upon what Catholic teacher you are docilicly submitting to and thus swallow whatever they say). Friend, we all know - if you had anything at all, you would have quoted it. You didn't. We all know why - you can't. You know that.... I know that.... all God's children know that. You are shooting yourself in the foot.


News flash: ALL humans, 100% of homo sapiens, ALL people - regardless of gender or race or ethnicity or creed, regardless of social or economic or eduational class - ALL of them, 100% of them, without a single exception - ALL of them are virgins for quite some time. 100% of them, no exceptions!!! ALL can during many years of their lives say exactly the same words that Mary did at the age of 16 or so: "I am a virgin." But here's the deal. Here's the reality you don't seem to be aware of. In most cases, that changes. A LOT of those homo sapiens do not die as virgins. Some do, of course, but many don't. Your whole premise.... that if one is a virgin at one point in their life, ergo it is a mandated fact of highest certainty possible that they must DIE as a virgin - it's wrong. If it were true, none of us would be here - Adam and Eve would have died virgins and thus childless. This apologetic of Catholics is also remarkably silly...... worse than insufficient, worse than poor..... it's silly. Catholic apologetics here are pathetic, really discrediting that denomination. I once posted here at CH that I was a virgin and that was 100% totally true. Guess what (not that it's any of your business)....



See posts # 130, 132, 137




- Josiah







.

 

[PezGirl73]

The canonical gospels tell us that the Blessed Virgin Mary is a virgin, that Blessed Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the canonical gospels never say that Blessed Mary is the mother of any person other than the Lord. History testifies that Blessed Mary is ever virgin. These are facts.

The gospels only say that she was a virgin and that she gave birth to Jesus.

While the scriptures are silent on the matter of her having sex again, there are several references that point to the idea that she would've had sex with Joseph, her husband, and that she did have other children. Now, again, my church doesn't have a doctrine on this, because it's irrelevant to salvation, so I got the easy part of this discussion.

Your facts that Mary was an ever virgin are not facts, they are opinions, just as mine are. Stop trying to give them more weight just because a pope decreed it. Remember, I don't answer to your pope.

 

[psalms 91]

All of the ancient churches say that the Blessed Virgin Mary is ever virgin. That is the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Arminian, Georgian, Ethiopian, Sudanese, Thomists, and whatever other ancient church says it. That accounts for around 66% to 75% of people who identify as Christians. Your claim is incorrect because it is poorly researched.

However it is factual, if the early christians considered her as such or wanted her on a footing with nthe SDaviour dont you think that Paul would have mentioned htat

 

[Josiah]

NO ONE would be discussing the very, very private, personal issues of marital intimacy of this married couple if the RC Denomination didn't create this divisive teaching as a matter of de fide dogma - a matter of highest importance, certainty and necessity.

Then the resulting (very necessary) response of: document this to the level claimed.

Does any of this honor Mary?

Perhaps it would have been better to leave this very inimate matter of Her marriage bed where the Holy Spirit in Scripture and the First Century Christians who knew her did: alone. Silence. Respect.


:dunno:

 

[Josiah]

NO ONE would be discussing the very, very private, personal issues of marital intimacy of this married couple if the RC Denomination didn't create this divisive teaching as a matter of de fide dogma - a matter of highest importance, certainty and necessity.

Then the resulting (very necessary) response of: document this to the level claimed.

Does any of this honor Mary?

Perhaps it would have been better to leave this very inimate matter of Her marriage bed where the Holy Spirit in Scripture and the First Century Christians who knew her did: alone. Silence. Respect.


:dunno:

THIS is why, at the-website-that-shall-not-be-named, I (for years) suggested that this whole topic be added to the list of topics which that site did not allow to be discussed. Of course, none of my recommendations were ever taken (lol.... life). This NEVER seems to give honor to Our Lady...... we simply get Catholics parroting (over and over and over and over and over) this claim as a matter of highest importance, certainty and necessity then documenting (through some AWFUL, truly terrible apologetics that really discredits Catholicism) that they have NOTHING to show it is true (to the level claimed - or at all). THIS matter which they then insist is a PRIVATE matter that is no one's business and people are RUDE to even bring it up - but they bring it up (over and over and over and over - as DE FIDE DOGMA), that it's rude to discuss such about any woman (but evidently not when it's Mary)..... Of course, all this causes Protestants to ask for support of this as truth (to the level claimed) which just perpetuates the whole unseemly discussion, round and round, and it tends to get nasty, and MARY just gets left in dust of the horrible debate (that no one ever wins). MARY seems to be the "victim" of all this.

MY position (stated earlier in this thread) is one that causes BOTH sides to hate (and report) me - and demand I be banned (which I have been, for taking the neutral stand that I do). Such is the milieu that seems to spin around this topic at most sites. Which is why I typically suggest this be among the "off topics".

I'm glad to say: this is probably the first non-Catholic interdenominational website where there has been open, frank discussions that have not resulted in a flurry of flames and Mary left in shambles.... I don't know, but I SUSPECT it's not even resulted in a flood of reports (maybe it has, lol). I've actually felt permitted to express my neutral view (such as in posts 130, 132, 137) without the usual fear of warnings, banning, nasty PM's, accusations that I hate Christ and Mary and the RCC, OR that I'm a secret Catholic and beholding to paganism. Don't happen at CH. Says a lot about this site. Good things about this site.


Pax Soli Christi


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Sounds pro RCC if they did not allow discussion, I would avoid that site at all costs, sounds like they really did not care for truth

 

[Josiah]

Sounds pro RCC if they did not allow discussion, I would avoid that site at all costs, sounds like they really did not care for truth

..... Bill, most of us are HERE because that site doesn't care about truth (or open discussion).... but, I apologize, I didn't mean my post to be bashing of a site, I used that as an example of the difficulty of the discussion and to contrast with THIS site, which I almost daily find reason to praise. The great majority of regulars here (and I include you in this, Bill) are able to RESPECTFULLY express themselves and discuss with others - without the things we've all experienced elsewhere. Bill, you and I have disagreed several times here but I never felt attacked or disrespected by you (and I hope that's mutual), I never felt that you were working to get me banned or silenced or pushed out. Just disagreed with, sometimes.... which is something I firmly defend.


A side point (so forgive me), but jsut FYI, there are many things where conservative/traditional Lutherans, Anglicans (and often Orthodox) find ourselves on the sidelines of denominational WARS at sites like this. This WAR rages at a lot of interdenominational websites (I don't think it does here - typically) and it does tend to get personal and nasty. SO, Staff (in time) tends to get DRAGGED into this - as mediators, often with the sole goal of preventing folks from leaving rather than with the goal of providing for MEANINGFUL open, honest discussions (truth getting trashed in the process...... institutional preservation becoming the issue)..... or WORSE devolving into "Mr. Rodger's Neighborhood" where truth is replaced with relativism, feel-good-ism and a sort of kindergarten "let's play nice" and "if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all" mentality (and then rules to enforce that). VERY sad. And yes, Bill - truth is the victim. Discussion is terminated. And the site dies or becomes one big "kumbyah" camp fire of meaningless nothingism. I've witnessed this at many sites. For Lutherans, much of this WAR is...... unfortunate. Much of this WAR is not as simple as it seems. A wise staffer at the-website-that-shall-not-be-named (Kevin, ksen) told me YEARS ago.... the worse place to be in any war is in the no man's land..... you'll get shot by both sides and defended by neither. I've often seen the wisdom in that observation..... Sorry for the diversion.


Back to the discussion .....




- Josiah




.