THE GREAT CONTRADICTION

[Alithis]

The sign of yonah is a dove.

Now read the book of yonah more closely and personally.
Then then the book of sacrifices Vayikrah(God called) will also be a personal relationship with him.

Sorry bro but.... In english????

 

[Ackbach]

Motive.. if i had or had not..would it excuse anyone else for thier own?nope..
if i say no..some here will cry foul and say..but you spoke harsh in such and such a post..and it wasnt nice,you sinned they cry(as if it excuses them thier sin) but sin is not defined by the opinions of others but by the conviction of the holy spirit who is holy and just and only speaks what the father is saying.

Actually, that's most definitely not how sin is defined. Sin is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God. That is, if you do what God has forbidden in His Word or don't do what He has commanded in His Word, then you're sinning. The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin as He wills, but it does not suddenly become sin just because the Holy Spirit convicted someone of that sin. It was sin before. Think back to King David and his adultery with Bathsheba. It was sin before Nathan came and told him the little parable, which the Holy Spirit used to convict him, right?

He knows iv spoken his truth in as much as it is revealed to me. And that it is love to speak the truth even if uncomfortable to the hearer.there is no law of god against love.

On the other hand, just because something is true doesn't mean you have to say it. Speaking the truth in love has more to it than simply speaking the truth. Yes, it is loving to speak the truth, but there are better ways and worse ways (and times) to do that.

so has the holy spirit convicted me of breaking the prrfect law of God this week..nope.

As I mentioned above, this is not the way sin is defined. There are particular actions that are sinful, regardless of whether the Holy Spirit convicts you they are sinful or not: worshiping anything other than the Triune God of the Scriptures, worshiping God in any way other than what He has prescribed, using God's name flippantly, not resting on the Sabbath, failing to give due honor to authorities in our lives, stealing, lusting, hating, lying, coveting (an inward sin of the mind if ever there was one), and many, many others, are all sin. If you do them, you're sinning. Also, there are positive sides to the Law of God as well: promote life, promote the well-being of your neighbor's marriage as well as your own, telling the truth in love, being generous and hospitable, etc. If you DON'T do these things, you're sinning.

The biggest sin of them all is pride.

It seems to me that I sin about every day. There might be a day or two here and there where I can't think of anything, but that doesn't mean I didn't sin on that day. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. One of the signs of spiritual maturity is a greater and greater appreciation of the black awfulness of your own sin, and the exceedingly great sacrifice made on the Cross to obliterate the penalty of that awful sin. Sin is worse than hell. It's the absolute worst thing in the entire universe.

The law is perfect, as many verses attest in the Scriptures. And you're saying that you obey the law perfectly every single day?

has he admonished and guided me ,taught me and corrected me in areas of my life that need perfecting..YES..

It sounds like you're giving with one hand what you took away with the other. If you don't sin, then why would you need any correction?

sin would be to refuse his correction.as that would be rebellion.we dont rebel against one we love.

While that's certainly a sin, lots more things are sin than that. See above.

I would like to see a thread on the differences between the quilt of sin and its effects vs the power of sin and its effects and the differences in the end result. I do not want to have this thread derailed with this rabbit trail.

I'm not of the opinion that a discussion of the guilt versus the power of sin is really a rabbit trail. The central point of this thread is the nature of sin after someone becomes a believer; making this distinction is, in my mind, essential to the entire question. What I'm trying to get at is that justification (having to do with the guilt of sin) and sanctification (having to do with the power of sin) are two distinct-but-not-separate benefits of salvation. It is so important to a believer's peace of mind (though by no means essential to said believer's salvation!) to get this distinction right. It's what Martin Luther spent so much time on, Augustine, Calvin, and many others have labored over to illustrate.

I think it would be circular.
Is it not simply playing with differing words about the same thing.?

Well, my definitions are above. How do you show that they are the same thing? What are your reasons? And where is the circularity?

In summary, the gospel is about three things: Creation, Fall, and Redemption. We are created in God's image, and because God has placed such a great value on His image, we are worth saving. But we have fallen. How do we define "fallen"? In terms of God's law. God gave us His law, which we broke. The least breaking of God's law merits eternal hell-fire. But God sent His Son not only to die on the Cross and thus do away with the penalty due us because of our sin, but Jesus Christ also lived a perfect life, obeying the law perfectly. That righteousness also comes to us. Theologians call Jesus' death the "passive obedience", and His sinless life they call the "active obedience". Both get imputed to our account. Imputed, or accounted, not infused. The passive obedience imputation gets us out of hell. The active obedience imputation gets us unto heaven. How we need both! But now what? Supposing we do get this imputation, and our sins are imputed to Christ, what then? Well, we are now believers, so we need to act like it. We need to sin less and less, by God's grace. This is sanctification, and it's 100% God and 100% man. We absolutely must depend on God's strength to do it, and we absolutely must do it. How is sanctification defined? By the law again. Sanctification means becoming more and more holy, more and more like Jesus Christ, more and more like law-keepers.

But we deceive ourselves if we think we are without sin, as you quoted above in 1 John. No believer is without sin. We still carry the old man around with us, carcass though he is. We are to actively mortify sin in our members. If we ever think we stand, we should take heed lest we fall. We're never done in this life. For the faithful, wars shall never cease. We're in a life-and-death struggle against sin; thank God that we already know we have the God-given victory. But we have to keep on fighting!

This leaves no room whatsoever, as Paul makes abundantly clear, for any excuses whatsoever to sin. I flatly deny that the true biblical theology of redemption leaves room for the flesh. There is no excuse. We are not to sin. But the theology I've outlined above, which I believe is the biblical theology, is precisely part of the encouragement and strength we need for this battle. We need to know God has already won this battle for us.

 

[Alithis]

Actually, that's most definitely not how sin is defined. Sin is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God. That is, if you do what God has forbidden in His Word or don't do what He has commanded in His Word, then you're sinning. The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin as He wills, but it does not suddenly become sin just because the Holy Spirit convicted someone of that sin. It was sin before. Think back to King David and his adultery with Bathsheba. It was sin before Nathan came and told him the little parable, which the Holy Spirit used to convict him, right?



On the other hand, just because something is true doesn't mean you have to say it. Speaking the truth in love has more to it than simply speaking the truth. Yes, it is loving to speak the truth, but there are better ways and worse ways (and times) to do that.



As I mentioned above, this is not the way sin is defined. There are particular actions that are sinful, regardless of whether the Holy Spirit convicts you they are sinful or not: worshiping anything other than the Triune God of the Scriptures, worshiping God in any way other than what He has prescribed, using God's name flippantly, not resting on the Sabbath, failing to give due honor to authorities in our lives, stealing, lusting, hating, lying, coveting (an inward sin of the mind if ever there was one), and many, many others, are all sin. If you do them, you're sinning. Also, there are positive sides to the Law of God as well: promote life, promote the well-being of your neighbor's marriage as well as your own, telling the truth in love, being generous and hospitable, etc. If you DON'T do these things, you're sinning.

The biggest sin of them all is pride.

It seems to me that I sin about every day. There might be a day or two here and there where I can't think of anything, but that doesn't mean I didn't sin on that day. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. One of the signs of spiritual maturity is a greater and greater appreciation of the black awfulness of your own sin, and the exceedingly great sacrifice made on the Cross to obliterate the penalty of that awful sin. Sin is worse than hell. It's the absolute worst thing in the entire universe.

The law is perfect, as many verses attest in the Scriptures. And you're saying that you obey the law perfectly every single day?



It sounds like you're giving with one hand what you took away with the other. If you don't sin, then why would you need any correction?



While that's certainly a sin, lots more things are sin than that. See above.



I'm not of the opinion that a discussion of the guilt versus the power of sin is really a rabbit trail. The central point of this thread is the nature of sin after someone becomes a believer; making this distinction is, in my mind, essential to the entire question. What I'm trying to get at is that justification (having to do with the guilt of sin) and sanctification (having to do with the power of sin) are two distinct-but-not-separate benefits of salvation. It is so important to a believer's peace of mind (though by no means essential to said believer's salvation!) to get this distinction right. It's what Martin Luther spent so much time on, Augustine, Calvin, and many others have labored over to illustrate.



Well, my definitions are above. How do you show that they are the same thing? What are your reasons? And where is the circularity?

In summary, the gospel is about three things: Creation, Fall, and Redemption. We are created in God's image, and because God has placed such a great value on His image, we are worth saving. But we have fallen. How do we define "fallen"? In terms of God's law. God gave us His law, which we broke. The least breaking of God's law merits eternal hell-fire. But God sent His Son not only to die on the Cross and thus do away with the penalty due us because of our sin, but Jesus Christ also lived a perfect life, obeying the law perfectly. That righteousness also comes to us. Theologians call Jesus' death the "passive obedience", and His sinless life they call the "active obedience". Both get imputed to our account. Imputed, or accounted, not infused. The passive obedience imputation gets us out of hell. The active obedience imputation gets us unto heaven. How we need both! But now what? Supposing we do get this imputation, and our sins are imputed to Christ, what then? Well, we are now believers, so we need to act like it. We need to sin less and less, by God's grace. This is sanctification, and it's 100% God and 100% man. We absolutely must depend on God's strength to do it, and we absolutely must do it. How is sanctification defined? By the law again. Sanctification means becoming more and more holy, more and more like Jesus Christ, more and more like law-keepers.

But we deceive ourselves if we think we are without sin, as you quoted above in 1 John. No believer is without sin. We still carry the old man around with us, carcass though he is. We are to actively mortify sin in our members. If we ever think we stand, we should take heed lest we fall. We're never done in this life. For the faithful, wars shall never cease. We're in a life-and-death struggle against sin; thank God that we already know we have the God-given victory. But we have to keep on fighting!

This leaves no room whatsoever, as Paul makes abundantly clear, for any excuses whatsoever to sin. I flatly deny that the true biblical theology of redemption leaves room for the flesh. There is no excuse. We are not to sin. But the theology I've outlined above, which I believe is the biblical theology, is precisely part of the encouragement and strength we need for this battle. We need to know God has already won this battle for us.

could you reply to each post as a separate post
.. as this is confusing you have taken excerpts from whole posts which removes them from their context .and misrepresents what was said.

i will address one point .. of course it is sin before the holy Spirit convicts of it . but the holy spirit can only convict of it if it is there . so if asked (you asked) has the holy spirit convicted me breaking gods perfect law this week ?with answer "nope" .. it is because i haven't, if i did he would certainly convict me of it . but why would i do that ? i love him.
now when you speak of the continence of sin what sin is it you are referring to ? most people know right well what sin they are continuing to practice . not all people break all laws you only need to break one as so many remind us . so what one it it you continue to break knowing it is wrong to do do you keep doing it .. which one and why .
We have already addressed that thoughts are not sin until you take ownership of them, entertain them in opposition to the knowledge of Jesus and then act upon them . unsolicited thoughts of evil are to be rejected shunned and cast down , demolished by the power of god we are given .

sin is defined by what god says it is -that my point ...not another persons accusation of it that they cannot possibly know apart from the-outer ambiguous fruits . most people hide their sin they keep doing .. repentance is not a one off action it is a life .
just because we live in a body that is sinful but buried with chrsit , does not mean we are compelled in ANY way to obey its desires we in chrsit cannot be compelled beyond our own will to sin . god does not allow us to be tested beyond our ability to resist .. NONE what so ever .
we would only do so because we choose to do so . but that would show we do not love God . did you continue to read the rest of 1 john 3 ? he goes on to say one born of god cannot continue in the practice of sin.. they cannot continue because god convicts them and they have no peace until the cease from it and this decision to cease is swift because they love him ..
if they refuse to cease then they dont love him very much at all

 

[Josiah]

Althis - I've never met a perfect person before meeting you. So, you can look to God (and Christ) and say, "no thanks - I have no need for you... your love, your mercy, your forgiveness, cuz I"M perfect - I never depart from anything you command." Amazing, it really is!

 

[Alithis]

Althis - I've never met a perfect person before meeting you. So, you can look to God (and Christ) and say, "no thanks - I have no need for you... your love, your mercy, your forgiveness, cuz I"M perfect - I never depart from anything you command." Amazing, it really is!

way to come on in, attack the person with sarcasm and ignore the topic .
-------------------------------------------------------------
another example MODS as to why i reply harshly and directly at times - noted for ya .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now lets take a look .shall we consider what the lord Jesus says ?how about his holy Spirit speaking through the inspired word /

son of God by adoption
king
priest
over comer
saint
clothed in righteousness
servant of the lord
ruler over the the old nature of the flesh
one who has dominion.
redeemed
co heir with Christ himself '
a partaker in the divine nature
one who has died and been raised again a new creation in Christ .

etc

i think i'll stick to what the lord Jesus says about those who repent of their sin through faith in Christ
and live repentant not turning back again to serve that which they are set free from .
and what he says about those who are born again of the Spirit of God having been buried (not sprinkled) with him into his death and raised again unto live by the power of the holy Spirit (not our own power )

when they lord Jesus by his spirit shows me anything in my life that is sin ,that is gracious of him to do so, and i will confess it as sin and do not lie and then i cease from doing that thing and walk on with a clear consciousness before God .
we do not GO back and disobediently rebelliously keep doing the sin. thats rebellion
repentance is not a one off event ..it is a constant renewing of the mind .
be not conformed to this world but be transformed .. by the renewing of your mind .. a constant state of changing your mind toward god to agree with him and obey him out of our love for him


why would we go back and do a sinful act he has set us free from when we know he has set us free , that is to slap him in the face and trample all he has done .
note ..what HE has done not what we have done . we prove he has done it by our obedience to it . not by our belligerent refusal to change our mind (repent ) and stubborn insistence on continuing in it .

the great contradiction of those whose hearts wax hard

they say "im just a sinner saved "
your either a sinner and will perish in your sin'
or you are saved and will turn away from your sin as one who has been saved from it and does not desire to enslaved again .
make up your mind whom you serve .- GOD ? or the flesh ?

repent !

 

[Josiah]

(you asked) has the holy spirit convicted me breaking gods perfect law this week ?with answer "nope" .. it is because i haven't

way to come on in, attack the person with sarcasm and ignore the topic


.

!. No attack. You claimed something for you yourself - it's YOUR claim of you yourself for you yourself - not mine (for anyone).

2. Nice evasion.

son of God by adoption
king
priest
over comer
saint
clothed in righteousness
servant of the lord
ruler over the the old nature of the flesh
one who has dominion.
redeemed
co heir with Christ himself '
a partaker in the divine nature
one who has died and been raised again a new creation in Christ .

etc

Your persistent confusion of Law and Gospel leads you to absurd conclusions - ones that any observation at reality by anyone (Christian or not, adult or child) would immediately and obviously note is ... well..... silly.

and live repentant

What did you repent FOR since you claim to always do the will of God, to be obedient? Since you have no sin, since you are always obedient, since you do all God commands (you are PERFECT even as God Himself is, you are HOLY even as God Himself is, you are LOVING just as and to the same extent as Jesus) what, exactly, did you "repent" of since you are sinless in your nature, thinking, attitude, doing... in what you think/feel/do and what you do not think/feel/do.... then what - pray tell - did you repent of?

why would we go back and do a sinful act he has set us free from when we know he has set us free

Well... for sinless, perfect folks like you, well..... you'd need to answer that question. But since you are - to date - the only person I've "met" (in person or on the 'net) who claims to be obedient and all God commands), you'd be the only one I know of who could answer this.


The rest of us (sadly) are with SAINT Paul who refers to himself (in the present tense) as "THE CHIEF of sinners" and with SAINT John who says that if ANYONE (pretty inclusive, huh?) who even just egotistically CLAIMS to be sinless (present tense) is a fool and a lair. We stand in His MERCY and FORGIVEN but we are sinners who DO (sadly) return to sin and who thus NEED God, His mercy, His grace, His Son, His forgiveness because.... well..... the rest of us aren't like you. It's why the rest of us are Christians - we NEED Christ, His mercy, His forgiveness, His salvation. Unlike you.

the great contradiction of those whose hearts wax hard

It's not a contradiction, it's Christianity. In Christianity, there is a SAVIOR because we NEED one.

For those without the lying ego to claim for self that self is perfect, obedient, sinless..... making Christ a mockery, making St. Paul and St. John lairs, making Christianity a joke (and for YOU, unnecessary)


Ah.... the sad absurdities that result when Law and Gospel are watered down to nothing, twisted, confused, entangled (or just mocked). Nearly all here have TRIED - oh how they have tried - to help you.

they say "im a sinner saved "
your either a sinner and will perish in your sin'
or you are saved and will turn away from your sin as one who has been saved from it and does not desire to enslaved again .

I keep wondering why you essentially promote Bhakti Hinduism.... but I've given up trying to figure out your motivation here. SOMEONE has totally messed you up - leading to some absurdly wrong (and very unchristian) things, someone who has so very, very much confused Law and Gospel. So many here have TRIED (for months now) tried so very hard, to help you untangle the mess you have been taught, bringing you back to Christianity. But so far, you seem unable to listen..... to consider.... Most of us will continue to TRY because it is a Christian imperative but....




NOTE: I do NOT consider you to be non-Christian but I do regard you as one who has been terribly, horribly confused (I suspect by your minister - but I don't know whom is to blame). And I fear that if you actually consider your pov, it might well destroy your faith and those reading your posts (thus my persistence - however seemingly in vain attempt to TRY to help you). I'm confident that is the motivation of others here, too. I consider it's possible you are just completely ineffectual in communicating your point (I HOPE that is the case) but given the many, many, many attempts of SO many here at CH to help you and your persistent repudiation of them, I find this increasingly unlikely.




- Josiah




.

 

[Alithis]

!. No attack. You claimed something for you yourself - it's YOUR claim of you yourself for you yourself - not mine (for anyone).

2. Nice evasion.








Your persistent confusion of Law and Gospel leads you to absurd conclusions - ones that any observation at reality by anyone (Christian or not, adult or child) would immediately and obviously note is ... well..... silly.








What did you repent FOR since you claim to always do the will of God, to be obedient? Since you have no sin, since you are always obedient, since you do all God commands (you are PERFECT even as God Himself is, you are HOLY even as God Himself is, you are LOVING just as and to the same extent as Jesus) what, exactly, did you "repent" of since you are sinless in your nature, thinking, attitude, doing... in what you think/feel/do and what you do not think/feel/do.... then what - pray tell - did you repent of?








Well... for sinless, perfect folks like you, well..... you'd need to answer that question. But since you are - to date - the only person I've "met" (in person or on the 'net) who claims to be obedient and all God commands), you'd be the only one I know of who could answer this.


The rest of us (sadly) are with SAINT Paul who refers to himself (in the present tense) as "THE CHIEF of sinners" and with SAINT John who says that if ANYONE (pretty inclusive, huh?) who even just egotistically CLAIMS to be sinless (present tense) is a fool and a lair. We stand in His MERCY and FORGIVEN but we are sinners who DO (sadly) return to sin and who thus NEED God, His mercy, His grace, His Son, His forgiveness because.... well..... the rest of us aren't like you. It's why the rest of us are Christians - we NEED Christ, His mercy, His forgiveness, His salvation. Unlike you.








It's not a contradiction, it's Christianity. In Christianity, there is a SAVIOR because we NEED one.

For those without the lying ego to claim for self that self is perfect, obedient, sinless..... making Christ a mockery, making St. Paul and St. John lairs, making Christianity a joke (and for YOU, unnecessary)


Ah.... the sad absurdities that result when Law and Gospel are watered down to nothing, twisted, confused, entangled (or just mocked). Nearly all here have TRIED - oh how they have tried - to help you.







I keep wondering why you essentially promote Bhakti Hinduism.... but I've given up trying to figure out your motivation here. SOMEONE has totally messed you up - leading to some absurdly wrong (and very unchristian) things, someone who has so very, very much confused Law and Gospel. So many here have TRIED (for months now) tried so very hard, to help you untangle the mess you have been taught, bringing you back to Christianity. But so far, you seem unable to listen..... to consider.... Most of us will continue to TRY because it is a Christian imperative but....




NOTE: I do NOT consider you to be non-Christian but I do regard you as one who has been terribly, horribly confused (I suspect by your minister - but I don't know whom is to blame). And I fear that if you actually consider your pov, it might well destroy your faith and those reading your posts (thus my persistence - however seemingly in vain attempt to TRY to help you). I'm confident that is the motivation of others here, too. I consider it's possible you are just completely ineffectual in communicating your point (I HOPE that is the case) but given the many, many, many attempts of SO many here at CH to help you and your persistent repudiation of them, I find this increasingly unlikely.




- Josiah




.

The essence of this entire post is attacking me ,nothing more.its rather obvious
And for what ..lol for agreeing with the word of God.

 

[Lamb]

The essence of this entire post is attacking me ,nothing more.its rather obvious
And for what ..lol for agreeing with the word of God.

Staff Notice:

Actually the user is addressing your theology which is attached to your stance that you believe you aren't sinning since you don't think the Holy Spirit is convicting you of anything. Since you make that claim, then it's fair for users to respond concerning it.

If you feel otherwise, then please either report a post and clearly define which portion(s) break the site rules or create a thread in the Member Admin Center to discuss. Don't do it here.

 

[Josiah]

!. No attack. You claimed something for you yourself - it's YOUR claim of you yourself for you yourself - not mine (for anyone).

2. Nice evasion.








Your persistent confusion of Law and Gospel leads you to absurd conclusions - ones that any observation at reality by anyone (Christian or not, adult or child) would immediately and obviously note is ... well..... silly.








What did you repent FOR since you claim to always do the will of God, to be obedient? Since you have no sin, since you are always obedient, since you do all God commands (you are PERFECT even as God Himself is, you are HOLY even as God Himself is, you are LOVING just as and to the same extent as Jesus) what, exactly, did you "repent" of since you are sinless in your nature, thinking, attitude, doing... in what you think/feel/do and what you do not think/feel/do.... then what - pray tell - did you repent of?








Well... for sinless, perfect folks like you, well..... you'd need to answer that question. But since you are - to date - the only person I've "met" (in person or on the 'net) who claims to be obedient and all God commands), you'd be the only one I know of who could answer this.


The rest of us (sadly) are with SAINT Paul who refers to himself (in the present tense) as "THE CHIEF of sinners" and with SAINT John who says that if ANYONE (pretty inclusive, huh?) who even just egotistically CLAIMS to be sinless (present tense) is a fool and a lair. We stand in His MERCY and FORGIVEN but we are sinners who DO (sadly) return to sin and who thus NEED God, His mercy, His grace, His Son, His forgiveness because.... well..... the rest of us aren't like you. It's why the rest of us are Christians - we NEED Christ, His mercy, His forgiveness, His salvation. Unlike you.





It's not a contradiction, it's Christianity. In Christianity, there is a SAVIOR because we NEED one.

For those without the lying ego to claim for self that self is perfect, obedient, sinless..... making Christ a mockery, making St. Paul and St. John lairs, making Christianity a joke (and for YOU, unnecessary)


Ah.... the sad absurdities that result when Law and Gospel are watered down to nothing, twisted, confused, entangled (or just mocked). Nearly all here have TRIED - oh how they have tried - to help you.







I keep wondering why you essentially promote Bhakti Hinduism.... but I've given up trying to figure out your motivation here. SOMEONE has totally messed you up - leading to some absurdly wrong (and very unchristian) things, someone who has so very, very much confused Law and Gospel. So many here have TRIED (for months now) tried so very hard, to help you untangle the mess you have been taught, bringing you back to Christianity. But so far, you seem unable to listen..... to consider.... Most of us will continue to TRY because it is a Christian imperative but....




NOTE: I do NOT consider you to be non-Christian but I do regard you as one who has been terribly, horribly confused (I suspect by your minister - but I don't know whom is to blame). And I fear that if you actually consider your pov, it might well destroy your faith and those reading your posts (thus my persistence - however seemingly in vain attempt to TRY to help you). I'm confident that is the motivation of others here, too. I consider it's possible you are just completely ineffectual in communicating your point (I HOPE that is the case) but given the many, many, many attempts of SO many here at CH
to help you and your persistent repudiation of them, I find this increasingly unlikely.




- Josiah




.

The essence of this entire post is attacking me ,nothing more.its rather obvious

The essence of this entire post is evasion, nothing more. It's rather obvious.

As everyone knows, I posting nothing whatsoever against you. Rather, I (like nearly all here at CH) am TRYING to protect you (and other readers) from the very dangerous theology you perpetually propagate, the entangled, confused, watered-down Law and Gospel, as well as your claims of sinlessness. I will continue to do this as long as you keep posting this.... if not for your benefit then for the benefit of others who may read what you post and so possibly endanger their Christian faith.

And if you read what is posted to you, you'd note the obvious that everyone else here knows with absolute confidence: I'm not attacking you but I confess I am upset with whoever taught you this twisted stuff you are posting, this dangerous abuse of Scripture.... I can only hope you simply have TOTALLY misunderstood your teacher(s). I do NOT consider you to be non-Christian but I do regard you as one who has been terribly, horribly confused (I suspect by your minister - but I don't know whom is to blame). And I fear that if you actually consider your pov, it might well destroy your faith and those reading your posts (thus my persistence - however seemingly in vain attempt to TRY to help you). I'm confident that is the motivation of others here, too. I consider it's possible you are just completely ineffectual in communicating your point (I HOPE that is the case) but given the many, many, many attempts of SO many here at CH to help you and your persistent repudiation of them, I find this increasingly unlikely.



- Josiah





.

 

[pinacled]

Read all of Hebrews to start.

When Paul mentions labor to enter into his rest. This is a personal account.
Now of course we should admonish and encourage one another in brotherly love and fellowship.
This is for edification.
What Josiah and others have tried to explain. Is a priestly matter. Remember even the disciples where over zealous and asked if they could call fire down from heaven to consume others.
Again read all of Hebrews and also Luke chapter 9.


A face of gladness will shine by reason of?

 

[Alithis]

The essence of this entire post is evasion, nothing more. It's rather obvious.

As everyone knows, I posting nothing whatsoever against you. Rather, I (like nearly all here at CH) am TRYING to protect you (and other readers) from the very dangerous theology you perpetually propagate, the entangled, confused, watered-down Law and Gospel, as well as your claims of sinlessness. I will continue to do this as long as you keep posting this.... if not for your benefit then for the benefit of others who may read what you post and so possibly endanger their Christian faith.

And if you read what is posted to you, you'd note the obvious that everyone else here knows with absolute confidence: I'm not attacking you but I confess I am upset with whoever taught you this twisted stuff you are posting, this dangerous abuse of Scripture.... I can only hope you simply have TOTALLY misunderstood your teacher(s). I do NOT consider you to be non-Christian but I do regard you as one who has been terribly, horribly confused (I suspect by your minister - but I don't know whom is to blame). And I fear that if you actually consider your pov, it might well destroy your faith and those reading your posts (thus my persistence - however seemingly in vain attempt to TRY to help you). I'm confident that is the motivation of others here, too. I consider it's possible you are just completely ineffectual in communicating your point (I HOPE that is the case) but given the many, many, many attempts of SO many here at CH to help you and your persistent repudiation of them, I find this increasingly unlikely.



- Josiah





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you wil get what you want on here Josiah -im leaving

but you will give account to god .with your no repentance message .
you must turn away from the lies of it . wait til im band before you put more knives in.

 

[George]

I'm sorry Alithis that Jesus doesn't seem to fit your image of a Savior.

 

[Ackbach]

you wil get what you want on here Josiah -im leaving

but you will give account to god .with your no repentance message .

If you think I or Josiah or most likely quite a few other people on there think repentance is incidental to salvation, then you've misunderstood our position. Just because we don't view it precisely the same way you do doesn't make repentance unimportant in our views.

 

[pinacled]

could you reply to each post as a separate post
.. as this is confusing you have taken excerpts from whole posts which removes them from their context .and misrepresents what was said.

i will address one point .. of course it is sin before the holy Spirit convicts of it . but the holy spirit can only convict of it if it is there . so if asked (you asked) has the holy spirit convicted me breaking gods perfect law this week ?with answer "nope" .. it is because i haven't, if i did he would certainly convict me of it . but why would i do that ? i love him.
now when you speak of the continence of sin what sin is it you are referring to ? most people know right well what sin they are continuing to practice . not all people break all laws you only need to break one as so many remind us . so what one it it you continue to break knowing it is wrong to do do you keep doing it .. which one and why .
We have already addressed that thoughts are not sin until you take ownership of them, entertain them in opposition to the knowledge of Jesus and then act upon them . unsolicited thoughts of evil are to be rejected shunned and cast down , demolished by the power of god we are given .

sin is defined by what god says it is -that my point ...not another persons accusation of it that they cannot possibly know apart from the-outer ambiguous fruits . most people hide their sin they keep doing .. repentance is not a one off action it is a life .
just because we live in a body that is sinful but buried with chrsit , does not mean we are compelled in ANY way to obey its desires we in chrsit cannot be compelled beyond our own will to sin . god does not allow us to be tested beyond our ability to resist .. NONE what so ever .
we would only do so because we choose to do so . but that would show we do not love God . did you continue to read the rest of 1 john 3 ? he goes on to say one born of god cannot continue in the practice of sin.. they cannot continue because god convicts them and they have no peace until the cease from it and this decision to cease is swift because they love him ..
if they refuse to cease then they dont love him very much at all

I understand your position. When someone has spent time in the wilderness a seriousness and respect for the Lord is apparent. Which others might not have because of unbelief.

 

[Ackbach]

Alithis,

I agree with you that when you sin, you're not loving God. The moral law, the Ten Commandments, Jesus summarized as "Love God, and love your neighbor." That is, by definition, if you are obeying the law, then you are loving God. But Jesus also said that if you love God, you will obey what He commands. So, if you are loving God, you are obeying Him. Therefore, since A implies B, and B implies A, they are logically equivalent. That is, loving God and obeying God are the same thing.

So you're quite right that when I say I am not obeying God's law, and I am sinning, that at that moment I am not loving God. You're quite right about that. I thank God that my salvation is from God, and not from myself, so that God loves me even when I don't love Him (which is precisely as often as I sin). As it says in 1 John, we love, because God first loved us. Is it important that I obey the law and in so doing, love God? Absolutely! But it's considerably more important that God loves me. He will help me to become more holy, sin less, and ultimately become sinless in heaven as part of my glorification. Praise God for such a beautiful and powerful salvation!

 

[Josiah]

Alithis,

I agree with you that when you sin, you're not loving God. The moral law, the Ten Commandments, Jesus summarized as "Love God, and love your neighbor." That is, by definition, if you are obeying the law, then you are loving God. But Jesus also said that if you love God, you will obey what He commands. So, if you are loving God, you are obeying Him. Therefore, since A implies B, and B implies A, they are logically equivalent. That is, loving God and obeying God are the same thing.

So you're quite right that when I say I am not obeying God's law, and I am sinning, that at that moment I am not loving God. You're quite right about that. I thank God that my salvation is from God, and not from myself, so that God loves me even when I don't love Him (which is precisely as often as I sin). As it says in 1 John, we love, because God first loved us. Is it important that I obey the law and in so doing, love God? Absolutely! But it's considerably more important that God loves me. He will help me to become more holy, sin less, and ultimately become sinless in heaven as part of my glorification. Praise God for such a beautiful and powerful salvation!

Well said. And there's no "contradiction" it's just the glory, the beauty of Christianity! It's why we look to the Cross and not in the mirror, why we celebrate that we have the SAVIOR.



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

you wil get what you want on here Josiah -im leaving

OBVIOUSLY, I don't want you to leave..... I want you to consider what is posted to you. Otherwise, discussion doesn't happen and growth/learning is rendered impossible. Posters here at CH have spent GREAT time with you because they CARE about you.



Pax Christi



- Josiah