God Does NOT Heal All - CHRISTIAN Discussion

[tango]

Hm yes, but I believe He always wants to heal and if someone died, there's more important things to do than blame people or yourself. I'm more like: the person is in heaven. They absolutely do not care, so why should I?

We're not talking about if someone dies. If you believe that God's will is always to heal then if someone isn't healed (i.e. they go on living with a condition that may be debilitating, painful, embarrassing, or some combination) there is an obvious question of why the healing wasn't forthcoming.

If we can accept it wasn't God's will we can leave it there. But if we insist that it is God's will to heal, always and without exception, then it is important to figure out why the healing wasn't forthcoming. After all, if I'm the guy praying for healing and want God to heal, the person with the condition wants God to heal, and God wants to heal, it does raise the question of what goes wrong if God demonstrably doesn't heal.

If you want to insist that it's always God's will to heal you also need to explain why Paul wrote of boasting in his infirmities, and also wrote to Timothy about his frequent infirmities. Obviously they both had infirmities that, for whatever reason, God had not healed. So we need to consider why that might have been - if Paul and Timothy were lacking faith, or had hidden sin, or whatever else is used to explain away a lack of healing from a God who apparently always wants to heal then it's hard to see how any of us today are likely to do any better.

 

[psalms 91]

We live in a fallen world so that is part of the answer as to why, satan has a certain amount of freedom at this point and he roams this fallen world, if yousay that God enjoys our suffering and does not want toalleviate it then think about what you attribute to God, the one who is perfect, cannot sin

 

[tango]

We live in a fallen world so that is part of the answer as to why, satan has a certain amount of freedom at this point and he roams this fallen world, if yousay that God enjoys our suffering and does not want toalleviate it then think about what you attribute to God, the one who is perfect, cannot sin

Who said God enjoys our suffering?

God told Paul that "my grace is sufficient" and "my power is made perfect in weakness". That's a totally different proposition from "I'm enjoying watching you suffer".

If God wanted to alleviate suffering why is there still suffering? It's clear that God doesn't choose, for whatever reason, to prevent suffering or there would be no more natural disasters, no more pain, no more sorrow, no more of anything bad. But we don't get that kind of utopia until we reach heaven. Revelation is clear that in the new heaven and the new earth there is no more death, no more sorrow, no more pain, no more crying. Why would the Revelation show a new heaven and new earth with no more pain and no more sorrow, if we could achieve a state in this earth with no more pain and no more sorrow?

If you want to even consider the argument that God enjoys our suffering you can only conclude that God is some kind of cosmic sadist, the kind of God we would only follow in order to appease in the hope he didn't rain pestilence down on our own heads. On the other hand we might regard God as one who allows things like pain and sickness to strengthen us for something else, in much the same way as parents don't do every little thing for their growing children but encourage them to explore and do things for themselves, even if that does mean they fall over a lot as they learn to walk, get more food on their face than in their mouth as they learn to use a spoon, and fall out of trees a lot as they learn to climb trees.

 

[Alithis]

It is Gods will to heal, why because He is good and can do no evil

Like . (lol on my mobile site i cant find the like post button)

 

[Alithis]

Who said God enjoys our suffering?

God told Paul that "my grace is sufficient" and "my power is made perfect in weakness". That's a totally different proposition from "I'm enjoying watching you suffer".

If God wanted to alleviate suffering why is there still suffering? It's clear that God doesn't choose, for whatever reason, to prevent suffering or there would be no more natural disasters, no more pain, no more sorrow, no more of anything bad. But we don't get that kind of utopia until we reach heaven. Revelation is clear that in the new heaven and the new earth there is no more death, no more sorrow, no more pain, no more crying. Why would the Revelation show a new heaven and new earth with no more pain and no more sorrow, if we could achieve a state in this earth with no more pain and no more sorrow?

If you want to even consider the argument that God enjoys our suffering you can only conclude that God is some kind of cosmic sadist, the kind of God we would only follow in order to appease in the hope he didn't rain pestilence down on our own heads. On the other hand we might regard God as one who allows things like pain and sickness to strengthen us for something else, in much the same way as parents don't do every little thing for their growing children but encourage them to explore and do things for themselves, even if that does mean they fall over a lot as they learn to walk, get more food on their face than in their mouth as they learn to use a spoon, and fall out of trees a lot as they learn to climb trees.

God told me off one time...he displeasure rested on me for a very short time. It was the worst moment of life ever...
God has no need to "do evil" to me or bring the curse of the law...(which in christ im not under) on me..to teach me somthing.. He sent his HOLY spirit to teach me all things and lead me into all truth. -just addressing that point.

 

[psalms 91]

God told me off one time...he displeasure rested on me for a very short time. It was the worst moment of life ever...
God has no need to "do evil" to me or bring the curse of the law...(which in christ im not under) on me..to teach me somthing.. He sent his HOLY spirit to teach me all things and lead me into all truth. -just addressing that point.

And what about those who dismiss the Holy Spirit or claim they cant hear God? What then?

 

[tango]

God told me off one time...he displeasure rested on me for a very short time. It was the worst moment of life ever...
God has no need to "do evil" to me or bring the curse of the law...(which in christ im not under) on me..to teach me somthing.. He sent his HOLY spirit to teach me all things and lead me into all truth. -just addressing that point.

I'm not sure which point you're addressing there. Maybe I'm being slow today.

 

[Josiah]

He sent his HOLY spirit to teach me all things and lead me into all truth. -just addressing that point.

You have ZERO evidence for that. NOWHERE did God ever promise to teach or lead YOU (as if YOU are the sole homo sapiens ever to live that matters). There is a verse where Jesus promises to lead you ALL (it's in the plural) but it doesn't say, "to lead Alithis"). And nowhere does He promise that all will learn or follow (must less just YOU).


:focus:




.

 

[psalms 91]

You have ZERO evidence for that. NOWHERE did God ever promise to teach or lead YOU (as if YOU are the sole homo sapiens ever to live that matters). There is a verse where Jesus promises to lead you ALL (it's in the plural) but it doesn't say, "to lead Alithis"). And nowhere does He promise that all will learn or follow (must less just YOU).


:focus:




.

But the promise is to all, not just one. God is no respector of persons and will teach all that can hear and listen. It is for all but it is also individual for those who will hear the spirit

 

[Alithis]

Yeah, it's funny but it's not what scripture says. It diminishes what IS said to avoid seeing that Timothy had frequent ailments and was not healed.

your right ..it is not scriptural ..it is as i said " an assumption "

and neither is what you have said scriptural .. the scriptural NEVER states timothy "was not healed " . you assumed it and inserted it in as if it is truth .

i was honest calling my own statement what it is - an assumption . i never stated it as anything else .
you simple cannot build a theology on an assumption ,nor can you build it on an experience nor a lack of experience ..
nor can you build a theology on an opinion .
but we can and MUST build it ONLY on the word of GOD .

he heals , it is his will to heal
he told US to do it . he didn't say you be christians and i will do it,
he said , be my disciples (apprentices) and go and do what i'm teaching you to do .. heal the sick preach the gospel drive out demons raise the dead baptising them in my name teaching them ALl that i have commanded you and make more disciples .

so when we go and do it and it doesnt happen , is God suddenly wrong or unable? NO , we are getting it wrong and must learn to get it right .

 

[Lamb]

But the promise is to all, not just one. God is no respector of persons and will teach all that can hear and listen. It is for all but it is also individual for those who will hear the spirit

God speaks to us through His Word. We are assured of hearing Him in the scriptures yet for some, they rely on reason and their world views to force scriptures to say what they want...itching ears.

Back to what is being discussed....God does not want us to suffer but He does allow it to happen.

 

[Alithis]

But the promise is to all, not just one. God is no respecter of persons and will teach all that can hear and listen. It is for all but it is also individual for those who will hear the spirit

haha yup.. . and you will note the repetitive practice of partially quoting me,but out of context to what i say - ..i spoke in the first person , so he thinks i just meant me alone .. but i was simply using the text as an example that Jesus promised the holy Spirit to ALL who 'ask " and that the role of the holy Spirit is to teach me /us , all things and to lead me/us into all truth and to glorify Jesus . and thus why would god need to send sickness to teach me something when he has sent his own precious holy Spirit to do that .. is sickness a better teacher than his holy Spirit (god forbid we imply such a thing)

of course you read it and KNEW already what i meant . but some read it looking for means to accuse me of wrong . ..... hmm sounds familiar .

 

[Alithis]

God speaks to us through His Word. We are assured of hearing Him in the scriptures yet for some, they rely on reason and their world views to force scriptures to say what they want...itching ears.

Back to what is being discussed....God does not want us to suffer but He does allow it to happen.

could you please show this from the word he speaks through where God takes those, whom he has freed from "the curse " by the blood of his own son , and in whom we live and move and have our being and in whom we are reconciled to god and by whom we are made partakers of the divine nature and Co -heirs of christ having been freed from sin and its sting death ....- and then brings them back under "the curse " ... ??

what your doing is saying - i get sick , so it must be gods will that i got sick ,god made me sick .. god who has blessed me with every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus ,now cursed me with sickness ...???? why do people charge god with evil ? .. do unto others as you would have done unto yourself he says by HIS WORD ... then goes about making people sick to teach them a lesson ... ??
oh but no you say, i didn't say god does it .. i said he allows it .
oh uhh riiight .. umm whats the diff ??
a bunch of big kids come in a yard and start beating on the toddler with sticks .. and mum says ,'I'm not doing it but i will allow it ,that'll teach him a lesson ??? say what .. it will teach him you dont love him very much at all .

then again .. your saying God sent his only beloved son.. and HE allowed himself to be flogged and have the skin of his flesh ripped from his back and by it we were healed ,, so that he could make you sick again whenever he feels like it ??.. that father sounds more like a devil ... think it through ,consider what your saying and implying .
and dont think i'm being all high horse .. i, not that long ago thought exactly the same way your thinking .. i used to say exactly the same things . but when you really stop and take stock ..you have to see they make no sense . why would he who was flogged for your healing .. make you sick ? sickness and suffering comes from sin and satan .. he is the one who comes to steal murder and destroy . -it all comes from sin and satan . jesus came to destroy satan's works .. he sent us with the power and authority to do just that .

 

[Lamb]

Can you show me where you've ceased sinning all together? You cannot. We've seen how you treat others here and it's not out of Christian love.

 

[Rens]

A woman on another forum got mad. First mad at God. She was Job. Her husband was very sick. It only got worse. There were so many people there who could pray for him, but no, God wanted this. Sigh. Then I got an amazing thought: wait, let's both agree and pray that God's will happens. The only tiny difference between us is that we believe He wants something else. Let's see what He wants.
It got much better and she could hardly believe it and he could go home. I just rebuked that devil. Let go of him!
So if people get mad, you can always try that.

 

[Alithis]

Can you show me where you've ceased sinning all together? You cannot. We've seen how you treat others here and it's not out of Christian love.

when a person speaks the truth of the bible as it plainly states it .. and that makes you uncomfortable .that does not mean they ahve sined.it just means you dont like what they have to say . they accused the lord jesus of sin because they didn't like what he had to say, then they crucified him .-they were unwilling to "change their minds " to change the way they were thinking . you posted this ....in blue
Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen :
God speaks to us through His Word. We are assured of hearing Him in the scriptures yet for some, they rely on reason and their world views to force scriptures to say what they want...itching ears.

Back to what is being discussed....God does not want us to suffer but He does allow it to happen.

i asked this ...

could you please show this from the word he speaks through where God takes those, whom he has freed from "the curse " by the blood of his own son , and in whom we live and move and have our being and in whom we are reconciled to god and by whom we are made partakers of the divine nature and Co -heirs of christ having been freed from sin and its sting death ....- and then brings them back under "the curse " ... ??

what your doing is saying - i get sick , so it must be gods will that i got sick ,god made me sick .. god who has blessed me with every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus ,now cursed me with sickness ...???? why do people charge god with evil ? .. do unto others as you would have done unto yourself he says by HIS WORD ... then goes about making people sick to teach them a lesson ... ??
oh but no you say, i didn't say god does it .. i said he allows it .
oh uhh riiight .. umm whats the diff ??
a bunch of big kids come in a yard and start beating on the toddler with sticks .. and mum says ,'I'm not doing it but i will allow it ,that'll teach him a lesson ??? say what .. it will teach him you dont love him very much at all .

then again .. your saying God sent his only beloved son.. and HE allowed himself to be flogged and have the skin of his flesh ripped from his back and by it we were healed ,, so that he could make you sick again whenever he feels like it ??.. that father sounds more like a devil ... think it through ,consider what your saying and implying .
and dont think i'm being all high horse .. i, not that long ago thought exactly the same way your thinking .. i used to say exactly the same things . but when you really stop and take stock ..you have to see they make no sense . why would he who was flogged for your healing .. make you sick ? sickness and suffering comes from sin and satan .. he is the one who comes to steal murder and destroy . -it all comes from sin and satan . jesus came to destroy satan's works .. he sent us with the power and authority to do just that .

......
you reply is to accuse me if sin.. ?? would it not be more beneficial to accept the challenge to the way you are thinking on THIS topic .. and look objectively at the word of god and see .. it is his will to heal .
or at least ask valid questions .. is there a "timing " for when certain miracles happen ..or is there a timing for when he send some one to heal a certain person i a certain case..

but to simply reply by accusing me of sin?? i can only ask , what sin are you accusing me off ? teling the truth ? that is ALWAYS love !. no matter how uncomfortable it is for the hearer .

the lord jesus told me the truth about the sin i was entangled by .. he told me i loved it more then i love him ... and that's why i did it , that truth cut me to the heart .. and in the cutting it also set me free . free means free to not do it any more , free from the LIE OF SATAN that whispers "you cant be free, your only human ".. he is a liar and the father of lies ,pay him no heed give him no place, resist him and he will flee from you , that usurper that old slithering serpent of deceit ,come but for to kill steal and destroy .

i'm not only human as that liar says . Jesus ,the word of GOD says , i am born again , a son of god ,a new creation in christ jesus , a co heir with Christ , a partaker in the divine nature , more then a conqueror ,he tells me i am clothed in the righteousness of christ Jesus ,made the righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus My LORD. the spirit of god now quickens my mortal body unto LIFE . my old man has died and been buried in baptism into Christ's death and raised again unto newness of life in the holy Spirit of God . I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer i that live but Christ that live in me and the life i now live in the flesh i live by the faith of the son of god who loved me and gave himself for me .-he is my defense .

 

[Alithis]

A woman on another forum got mad. First mad at God. She was Job. Her husband was very sick. It only got worse. There were so many people there who could pray for him, but no, God wanted this. Sigh. Then I got an amazing thought: wait, let's both agree and pray that God's will happens. The only tiny difference between us is that we believe He wants something else. Let's see what He wants.
It got much better and she could hardly believe it and he could go home. I just rebuked that devil. Let go of him!
So if people get mad, you can always try that.

sometimes your english has a way of presenting stuff that catches me out and makes me think .. and this is one of those times lol. and after thinking hard what you meant i said /.. WOW good point !!

 

[Alithis]

And what about those who dismiss the Holy Spirit or claim they cant hear God? What then?

are they not the rebellious who do not desire to know him ?
i once asked as honest an atheist as i could ever find ...(rare indeed) "if God came down and stood before you and irrevocably proved himself to you ..' would you follow then ? and he replied ..NO .
people who say they cant hear god are people who choose a lie or having heard god through their youth (for he gives all a conscience and declares himself through every aspect of creation so that none are with excuse ) they refused to listen .it is honest enough that some say ,they can't hear god .. but then it is difficult to hear some one when your thumbs are in your ears .

evil comes upon the wicked because they are under the curse ..nothing good come from a curse its a curse . they reap what THEY sow . not what God sows .he sends out his workers to SOW the gospel of LIFE .
of course some will ask why then do christians get sick,... for MANY reasons . the first one being , we dont beleive in healing , so through unbelief we do not enter the promises ...
another is ignorance .. lack of teaching of the truth ..people/pastors tell them god doesnt heal so they beleive a lie or its gods will your sick ,so they receive the lie .that's on the head of the one who told them that .

as for those who dismiss the holy Spirit .. they are not Of God .. for those who repent and are buried with christ through the waters of baptism, receive the holy Spirit , they do not dismiss him.

like i say ,back on the healing topic ... does every person i pray for get healed .. not yet . why ? because im learning and i get it wrong somehow ,buts that changing as i learn , im seeing more people being healed all the time . i have seen more healed in the last 6 months then my entire life .. why ? simple! ,i have prayed for more people in the last 6 months then my entire life lol .

 

[psalms 91]

Truthfully Altheis I have had many Christians tell me this, which is why I ask and yes I know the answer but so many claim this

 

[Lamb]

I refute a lot of what you've claimed in regards to what you think I've said. Sometimes I don't feel that you are reading posts. It's evident in your responses.

when a person speaks the truth of the bible as it plainly states it .. and that makes you uncomfortable .that does not mean they ahve sined.it just means you dont like what they have to say . they accused the lord jesus of sin because they didn't like what he had to say, then they crucified him .-they were unwilling to "change their minds " to change the way they were thinking . you posted this ....in blue
Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen :
God speaks to us through His Word. We are assured of hearing Him in the scriptures yet for some, they rely on reason and their world views to force scriptures to say what they want...itching ears.

Back to what is being discussed....God does not want us to suffer but He does allow it to happen.

i asked this ...

could you please show this from the word he speaks through where God takes those, whom he has freed from "the curse " by the blood of his own son , and in whom we live and move and have our being and in whom we are reconciled to god and by whom we are made partakers of the divine nature and Co -heirs of christ having been freed from sin and its sting death ....- and then brings them back under "the curse " ... ??

what your doing is saying - i get sick , so it must be gods will that i got sick ,god made me sick .. god who has blessed me with every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus ,now cursed me with sickness ...???? why do people charge god with evil ? .. do unto others as you would have done unto yourself he says by HIS WORD ... then goes about making people sick to teach them a lesson ... ??
oh but no you say, i didn't say god does it .. i said he allows it .
oh uhh riiight .. umm whats the diff ??
a bunch of big kids come in a yard and start beating on the toddler with sticks .. and mum says ,'I'm not doing it but i will allow it ,that'll teach him a lesson ??? say what .. it will teach him you dont love him very much at all .

then again .. your saying God sent his only beloved son.. and HE allowed himself to be flogged and have the skin of his flesh ripped from his back and by it we were healed ,, so that he could make you sick again whenever he feels like it ??.. that father sounds more like a devil ... think it through ,consider what your saying and implying .
and dont think i'm being all high horse .. i, not that long ago thought exactly the same way your thinking .. i used to say exactly the same things . but when you really stop and take stock ..you have to see they make no sense . why would he who was flogged for your healing .. make you sick ? sickness and suffering comes from sin and satan .. he is the one who comes to steal murder and destroy . -it all comes from sin and satan . jesus came to destroy satan's works .. he sent us with the power and authority to do just that .

......
you reply is to accuse me if sin.. ?? would it not be more beneficial to accept the challenge to the way you are thinking on THIS topic .. and look objectively at the word of god and see .. it is his will to heal .
or at least ask valid questions .. is there a "timing " for when certain miracles happen ..or is there a timing for when he send some one to heal a certain person i a certain case..

but to simply reply by accusing me of sin?? i can only ask , what sin are you accusing me off ? teling the truth ? that is ALWAYS love !. no matter how uncomfortable it is for the hearer .

the lord jesus told me the truth about the sin i was entangled by .. he told me i loved it more then i love him ... and that's why i did it , that truth cut me to the heart .. and in the cutting it also set me free . free means free to not do it any more , free from the LIE OF SATAN that whispers "you cant be free, your only human ".. he is a liar and the father of lies ,pay him no heed give him no place, resist him and he will flee from you , that usurper that old slithering serpent of deceit ,come but for to kill steal and destroy .

i'm not only human as that liar says . Jesus ,the word of GOD says , i am born again , a son of god ,a new creation in christ jesus , a co heir with Christ , a partaker in the divine nature , more then a conqueror ,he tells me i am clothed in the righteousness of christ Jesus ,made the righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus My LORD. the spirit of god now quickens my mortal body unto LIFE . my old man has died and been buried in baptism into Christ's death and raised again unto newness of life in the holy Spirit of God . I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer i that live but Christ that live in me and the life i now live in the flesh i live by the faith of the son of god who loved me and gave himself for me .-he is my defense .