God Does NOT Heal All - CHRISTIAN Discussion

popsthebuilder

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Jesus performed at least 33 miracles (as recorded in God's inscripturated word - with allusions to MANY more). Many of them are quite interesting.

There are MANY verses that direct us to God's physical healing of disease, often with Gospel promises (some absolute).

We've all known MANY (including ourselves) who prayed for healing - and were healed (perhaps even miraciously). But we've all known some who prayed for healing and were not (my very, very beloved grandfather..... I still grieve).

Scripture suggests Jesus did not heal everyone... Certainly not all are healed now, not even Christians.

And it seems all the miracles of healing (and rising from the dead) were temporary - they soon got sick and/or died anyway.


+++++++++++++++


"Answers" I've heard/read seem to fall into 3 categories (with many variations in each)....


1. God's Soverignty. Our Reformed brothers and sisters quickly go to this. God is God, His ways are not our ways and often are beyond our knowledge and need to know. God is true and faithful - but He does this according to His will. God is gloried by our sickness and death - but don't dismay, the Christian is received into glory. It's about God's glory.

2. Our Unworthiness. Our "Evangelical" and Catholic brothers and sisters often go to this. OUR unworthiness sadly "trumps" God's Gospel. There is a lack of faith on our part that renders God impotent (or simply unwilling or simply means we can't apprehend the healing). And/or there is some unrepentant (and perhaps persistent) sin that renders God impotent or simply means we are lack the required level of merit for the healing. It's our fault.

3. Mystery of the Cross. Our Lutheran (and sometimes Orthodox) brothers and sisters often go here. We simply do not know. God is always faithful.... and our unworthiness 0r sinfulness doesn't render Him impotent (since ALL are unworthy, ALL are sinful), God's mercy is unconditional. We simply cannot answer the question.... there may be aspects to all this unknown to us. It's mystery. My Lutheran pastor speaks of "God healing in heaven rather than on Earth" which I admit does SEEM like a "cop out" but is it?


#1 and #3 are similar, of course - but #1 looks to God's power and glory, # 3 to His heart. Additionally, there appears to be in Scripture the thought at sickness (like all affliction) can be a good thing or at least result in some good (again, Paul's thorn comes to mind) and both #1 and #3 note that - but is that side-stepping the issue?



YOUR thoughts?



Pax Christi



- Josiah
Seems to me that all three options you mentioned have the potential to be true, and not exclusively so.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

popsthebuilder

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Might I add that it is not for us to cling to the material and physical? Surely phusical healing does happen, but to be worried with physical longevity or comfort isn't for us, as we are faithful to GOD's Word. I witness spiritual healing quite often here lately by the Grace of GOD. I venture to say that no physical healing would be done at the believers whim lest they be wholly of GOD.

Will we not see these miraculous happenings again? Perhaps we may not, but some after is surely will.



Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

popsthebuilder

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This is an extremely narrow interpretation of Is 53:5 that simply doesn't represent the reality in which we live. You might as well pluck Psalm 103:3 out of context as well.



So why is there a healthcare system in the country at all? Why do people go to hospital - if it were as simple as you make out people could simply go to church instead and be healed. It would be a lot cheaper than worrying about insurance premiums, deductibles, copays and the general annoyance, discomfort and outright pain of conventional medical treatment. And think how much money the church could make from simply requesting a donation of, say, $100 for every healing?



Not at all, questioning whether God always heals is merely attempting to reconcile reality to Scripture. If the two contradict we need to consider whether we've misunderstood reality or misunderstood Scripture. If the best form of reconciliation between the two is "you lack faith" something is probably wrong.



The Jesus I believe in saves, delivers and heals. He just does it according to his plan rather than according to my plan. If he did it according to my desire then I would be in charge and Jesus would be the follower. Last I checked it doesn't work that way.
Again I note spiritual healing as GOD's will, much more so than physical health and longevity, though these too, in cases, are promised to some I think.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

popsthebuilder

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Firstly, I never said God does not heal. My stance is that God does not always heal. The two are very significantly different.

As to why God might not heal, how about "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"? (2Co 12:9) - if Paul could boast in his infirmities (the ones that obviously hadn't been healed), maybe we could too.

Here's the thing. We clearly have a conflict between the "healing in the atonement" teaching (that God always heals) and life around us that makes it very clear God does not always heal. One way or another things have to resolve. Either Scripture is wrong, or our interpretation is wrong, or there's some other reason why God isn't healing in ways we might expect. To resolve the conflict we need to figure out whether there are other ways the text can be interpreted (without butchering the context, or twisting things to suit our preferred interpretation) or if there's something about the church today that hinders things (e.g. if my life is riddled with unconfessed sin I shouldn't be surprised if God doesn't work powerfully through me)

There's one line of thought out there that essentially goes along the lines of "sickness doesn't exist in heaven and therefore has no place on earth", which sounds very appealing but this argument collapses when drawn out even a little. There's no death in heaven either but death clearly does exist on earth, not least because God decreed it would be so after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Until the new heaven and the new earth are with us we will continue to experience death, sorrow and pain so unless we want to say we will achieve blissful immortality this side of heaven it seems odd to pull sickness out of the mix in isolation.

A verse often used by people who support the "God always heals" teaching is Ps 103:3. But looking at the overall context of this verse doesn't support the meaning that so many people assign to it, even though on the face of it the meaning appears obvious.

David was righteous aside from his one issue with Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite (and 1Ki 15:5 puts this in black and white), so the only recorded iniquity he committed related to Uriah. God had forgiven him following his repentance after being challenged by Nathan, but the child Bathsheba bore for him died. Looking at 2Sa 12 we see David told that the Lord had put away his sin and he would not die, and on hearing his child would die David pleaded with God and fasted for a week but the child still died. Then when the child died David washed, anointed himself, and worshiped God on the basis that while the child lived he fasted and wept because God may have saved the child but now the child was dead he couldn't be brought back. If David knew that God forgave all his sins he must have written the psalm after the incident with Uriah, in which case he would also have known that God did not heal all our diseases in the physical world because he had watched his son die.

From that it seems more likely that "God who forgives all your iniquities and heals all your diseases" refers to healing in the form of being given a perfected body in the afterlife rather than necessarily physical healing in this life, given that David's son quite demonstrably wasn't healed of his diseases in this life. This ties in with Romans 8:23 referring to how we are "eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" and the future promise of a new heaven and new earth where there is no more sickness, no more death, no more sorrow, no more pain. I'm still seeing this as representing a promise of future perfection rather than any guarantee of physical healing in this life, which also ties in with what Jesus said about how we must deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him.

Rolling forward to New Testament times and it's clear that Jesus healed a lot of people but even there it seems presumptuous to assume that sickness and infirmity will always be healed. I realise there are a few conflicting interpretations of just what Paul was referring to as the "thorn in the flesh" given to him but even putting that one aside we see him telling Timothy to "use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities" (1Ti 5:23, NKJV) so it seems even back in the days of the early church there were people who weren't healed of their infirmities.

One of the books I've been reading lately (I forget which one offhand, there have been a few) raised the question whether we would be willing to give up everything in this world to follow Jesus if all we got out of the arrangement was Jesus Christ and nothing more. It's something I find very challenging - the question of whether I'd give up worldly wealth, my health, my physical well-being, whatever social and financial status I may have, all in exchange for the kingdom of heaven. But that seems to be just what Jesus is describing when he used the analogies of the "pearl of great price" and the "treasure in the field" that caused the man to sell all that he had to acquire it. What Jesus said about "if your eye causes you to sin" seems to reinforce this, that it's better to be physically imperfect and get into heaven than be physically intact but sinful. Where is the cost in plucking out our eye or cutting off our hand, if we are all but guaranteed a replacement just by asking for it? What use is a healthy body if our spirit is dull?

I often wonder whether I could follow in the footsteps of Job and honestly say "Naked I came from my mother's womb, naked I shall return... blessed be the name of the Lord". But I fear if we focus too much on the "what's in it for me" question when it comes to following Jesus we end up following on our terms rather than His, and become customers rather than disciples. The teaching that as Christians we are assured perfect health flies in the face of "take up your cross and follow me" and turns our Christian walk into a list of things we assume we're going to get. What we're going to get is a place in heaven and no guarantees whether we'll be rich or poor, sick or healthy, popular or despised, in this world. We must be ready to give up all that we have in this world for the sake of the cross, whether that relates to financial prosperity, social status, good health, whatever. If there's anything we have that we would not be willing to leave behind if Jesus called us away from it, we aren't following Jesus.
Good post.

😊

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

Rens

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Once in a meeting years ago a preacher said: before the meeting I met an angel and he said: this morning God is gonna heal everyone
except one. Now you think: that's me!
I sent him away. That was a bad angel.
 

psalms 91

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Yup dont you just love it when it is said God doesnt want to heal someone? When you say He doesnt heal then that is exactly what you say
 

Alithis

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This is an extremely narrow interpretation of Is 53:5 that simply doesn't represent the reality in which we live. You might as well pluck Psalm 103:3 out of context as well.
-----
#insert# your implying Gods word is not reality.
-----#insert# end.

So why is there a healthcare system in the country at all? Why do people go to hospital - if it were as simple as you make out people could simply go to church instead and be healed. It would be a lot cheaper than worrying about insurance premiums, deductibles, copays and the general annoyance, discomfort and outright pain of conventional medical treatment. And think how much money the church could make from simply requesting a donation of, say, $100 for every healing?

------#insert# -------
The churched system does not as a whole beileve gods word .the deciples did but the systym of the church does not and therefore cannot heal the sick.
------------------#insert# end.

Not at all, questioning whether God always heals is merely attempting to reconcile reality to Scripture. If the two contradict we need to consider whether we've misunderstood reality or misunderstood Scripture. If the best form of reconciliation between the two is "you lack faith" something is probably wrong.

#insert# -----------
I never once said the unhealed person lacked faith or belief. They require niether.
I said "we" lack belief or faith..the one praying.Jesus said to the one who believes... ALL things are possible..is he lieing ?does he need a reality check ?no !Gods word IS real.
-----------#insert# end.

The Jesus I believe in saves, delivers and heals. He just does it according to his plan rather than according to my plan. If he did it according to my desire then I would be in charge and Jesus would be the follower. Last I checked it doesn't work that way.
his plan is known .plainly declared .. He said All authority is given me in heaven and upon earth ....now i send you....... Go in my name and heal the sick....etc. So his desire is that his deciples continue the work he began..
Also we are in charge..he expressly put us in charge when he commanded us..not requested not suggested but commanded us to do it. And gave us all the authority of his name.not some but all.
 

Alithis

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The two most common scriptures dragged up to shore up a postion which takes the stance that God is notfaithful to his word (as that is what the stance implies ) are pauls thorn in the flesh and Timothy's taking a little wine ...

In paulscase its easy.a messnger of satan was sent and allowedby god to buffet paul. The term "thorn in the flesh" simply means "a persistant annoyance" - its purpose ? To humble him . he was Not sick.

Timothy obviously had an issue when he ate certain foods.. And paul told him take a liitle wine. It helps.
He had no recorded unhealed disease and there is no record of him getting one nor dying of one.. He wasnt sick.

Another raised the ilnesse Of david and others.. They were not under the new covenant yet. By his stripes we were healed ..(were..past tense)Did not apply yet.as they had not yet been laid upon him.

Some try to accuse God of evil by using Job as example.. They dont realize they are doing exactly what jobscompainions did -forwhich God rebuked them. God does not do evil .

God is life.
God is love
God will destroy everything that hates and that brings death.
 

Josiah

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The two most common scriptures dragged up to shore up a postion which takes the stance that God is notfaithful to his word (as that is what the stance implies ) are pauls thorn in the flesh and Timothy's taking a little wine ...

In paulscase its easy.a messnger of satan was sent and allowedby god to buffet paul. The term "thorn in the flesh" simply means "a persistant annoyance" - its purpose ? To humble him . he was Not sick.

Prove the problem was not some sickness...

What makes you think that healing is limited to sickness? If I break a leg, I have no sickness so in your theology, God cannot heal it since it's not a disease?





.
 

psalms 91

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Wow that is really off I would say. I think you know exactly what Altheis and I believe so why poke?
 

tango

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Once in a meeting years ago a preacher said: before the meeting I met an angel and he said: this morning God is gonna heal everyone
except one. Now you think: that's me!
I sent him away. That was a bad angel.

Sounds like it would be better to send the preacher away for making silly claims like that.
 

tango

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The two most common scriptures dragged up to shore up a postion which takes the stance that God is notfaithful to his word (as that is what the stance implies ) are pauls thorn in the flesh and Timothy's taking a little wine ...

In paulscase its easy.a messnger of satan was sent and allowedby god to buffet paul. The term "thorn in the flesh" simply means "a persistant annoyance" - its purpose ? To humble him . he was Not sick.

Timothy obviously had an issue when he ate certain foods.. And paul told him take a liitle wine. It helps.
He had no recorded unhealed disease and there is no record of him getting one nor dying of one.. He wasnt sick.

Another raised the ilnesse Of david and others.. They were not under the new covenant yet. By his stripes we were healed ..(were..past tense)Did not apply yet.as they had not yet been laid upon him.

Some try to accuse God of evil by using Job as example.. They dont realize they are doing exactly what jobscompainions did -forwhich God rebuked them. God does not do evil .

God is life.
God is love
God will destroy everything that hates and that brings death.

You can't pull the line that people are claiming God isn't faithful to his word unless you can demonstrate that God's word clearly states that all will be healed. Pulling Is 53:5 or Ps 103:3 and insisting it refers to physical healing is to make an assertion and insist that God honor your interpretation, ignoring other possible interpretations of it. You can't slice and dice Scripture, piecing it together like a ransom note, and then expect God to honor the "promise" he's apparently made.

Paul said he would boast in his infirmities. Why would he have infirmities at all, if healing was guaranteed? Why would God say "my power is made perfect in weakness" if what he should have said is "stand on the promises my son, and you will be healed of all this"? Did God get it wrong when dealing with Paul?

Posting that God is life and God is love doesn't make your case at all. Nobody is disputing this, the topic under discussion is whether God will always heal us. And given people get sick and die every day we have to either accept that God doesn't always heal or figure out what else is going on. We also have to figure out why the churches that preach this endless "faith, faith" mantra haven't put the US healthcare system out of business by offering healing to anyone who asks. Given the choice between going through invasive medical tests and procedures, or having a preacher pray for me, I think I'd take the prayers. And the preacher could then request a donation of, say, $100 for praying for me which would still cost less than merely crossing the threshold into the doctor's office. Maybe even the "faith, faith" preachers haven't quite got it figured out either?
 

Alithis

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Nah.your trying tobuild a theology on nothing but assumptions.
Im never going to buy into that.

You dont annul the word of God by pointing youe assumptions about 2 cases.
We know its Gods will to heal.jesus said Go and heal the sick... Why would he tell us to do the opposite of his will.
Its his will to heal. His promises.
As with all his promises..they are not entered into for one reason the scripture also plainly states.
Unbelief! .

From thereon ,its just attempts to justify unbelief. I wont go there. Gods word is true and he is faithful to it. My experience may be thar i presently did not see my wife get healed.... Does this change gods word ?NO.
But my experience can change. So i do not build a theology based on my changable experinces.. But upon the unchanging word of God.
 

Rens

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I was sick, just a cold, maybe because of the bad confession here. I got so sick of it. God heal me now! Didn't work. Oh wait. I have to do it. I was mad today anyway so I turned it at the devil. Immediately gone.
 

Alithis

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I was sick, just a cold, maybe because of the bad confession here. I got so sick of it. God heal me now! Didn't work. Oh wait. I have to do it. I was mad today anyway so I turned it at the devil. Immediately gone.

we were out and about yesterday - ankle pains gone (she had it for a lot of years ) hip pain gone - (i know, it was my hip lol) ,sinus and ear pain -gone . -back pain gone -2 people led to the lord(need to be baptised yet) the gospel preached to all we prayed for of course . many green apples :( but much sowing done . 4 others baptised .. demons manifested and casts out . another day in the life ..
:) . others are seeing more prolific healings .. we are all moving back into faith - learning . we learn by going and obeying , not by sitting arguing why we think it doesnt happen lol .
 

Lamb

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we were out and about yesterday - ankle pains gone (she had it for a lot of years ) hip pain gone - (i know, it was my hip lol) ,sinus and ear pain -gone . -back pain gone -2 people led to the lord(need to be baptised yet) the gospel preached to all we prayed for of course . many green apples :( but much sowing done . 4 others baptised .. demons manifested and casts out . another day in the life ..
:) . others are seeing more prolific healings .. we are all moving back into faith - learning . we learn by going and obeying , not by sitting arguing why we think it doesnt happen lol .

Ankle pains for years? Did she not have enough faith? Isn't that what you asked about Hammster and his wife? [MENTION=36]Hammster[/MENTION]
 

popsthebuilder

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Unbelief, which is to say not following the commands utterly, coupled with the fact that most seem to expect physical healing though we all know that we aren't to regard this material life as worth much. What is said? Basically that those who cling to this life are dead? So why expect physical perfection in health? Especially if one isn't pleasing to GOD, in other words, clinging to wants of the flesh or desires of attainment in this material existence.

Surely GOD can literally heal any, but who are we to expect it. Are we so vain that we think that now in our error and division and hate and idle talk that we are truely ready for the return? Are we perfect? Healing happens constantly, spiritually, everywhere the teachings of Jesus the Christ are expounded on, and lived out. Who is to say we will not see utterly miraculous physical healing grow up right in Christ, believing, and as such carrying out to the fullest, the Will of GOD, for the sake of all?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

Alithis

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Ankle pains for years? Did she not have enough faith? Isn't that what you asked about Hammster and his wife? [MENTION=36]Hammster[/MENTION]

yes ,she told us she had the pain for years .. now she doesnt .

as to your question .. NO .. i maintained that the person being prayed for does not require faith ..
the person praying does .
sometimes the prayee has a lot of faith (ref:the centurion ) some times they have none (ref:lazarus- he was dead )
Jeuss told US to heal the sick .. he didn't tell us to beg they be healed ,plead they be healed or hope they be healed .. he just said to do it .
we wont learn how if we sit around expounding on our experiences where a person did not get healed yet ..and building a doctrine based on our experience .
as we go and obey god honours his word , as we beleive ,all things become possible and faith grows .. i beleive in healing more now then i ever have before , because i have begun to see people being healed ..so my faith is strengthening ..

before ,when i did not obey and go out and lay hands on the sick ..i saw NONE get healed - interesting isn't it .
we dont obey -we see nothing \
we obrey - we see result ...

its just like holding a seed of wheat in your pocket .. if you keep it there it remains one seed

if you GO out .. and plant it , it can become hundreds of seeds ...
thats the kingdom of god for you -use it or lose it

to him that has more will be given , to him that has not, even what he has w ill be take away and given to him that has much .. -pp
 

Alithis

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Unbelief, which is to say not following the commands utterly, coupled with the fact that most seem to expect physical healing though we all know that we aren't to regard this material life as worth much. What is said? Basically that those who cling to this life are dead? So why expect physical perfection in health? Especially if one isn't pleasing to GOD, in other words, clinging to wants of the flesh or desires of attainment in this material existence.

Surely GOD can literally heal any, but who are we to expect it. Are we so vain that we think that now in our error and division and hate and idle talk that we are truely ready for the return? Are we perfect? Healing happens constantly, spiritually, everywhere the teachings of Jesus the Christ are expounded on, and lived out. Who is to say we will not see utterly miraculous physical healing grow up right in Christ, believing, and as such carrying out to the fullest, the Will of GOD, for the sake of all?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

we (if born again of the spirit of god) are the sons of god ... and if the father promises the sons something .. how can you ask "who are we to expect it , is our heavenly father not trustworthy .. ?
he delights in us when we trust his word and expect his faithfulness .. faith pleases him .
 

popsthebuilder

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we (if born again of the spirit of god) are the sons of god ... and if the father promises the sons something .. how can you ask "who are we to expect it , is our heavenly father not trustworthy .. ?
he delights in us when we trust his word and expect his faithfulness .. faith pleases him .
Surely GOD is utterly faithful to his word. It is man that isn't faithful to GOD. My point was that one can rightly expect to be healed and any other thing that they ask of GOD if it is of gods will that they utterly follow as sons of GOD. Again one isn't both of GOD and of Satan so if one is not utterly faithful to GOD then they are not of GOD and as such indeed should expect naught from GOD until repentance and clear conscience are within the saved.

I'm thirty five with worse arthritis than most twice my age. I heve approximately 50% lung capacity and a death sentence of copd. I have a giant cell tumor holding my right arm on instead of a shoulder. Yet I have been healed and was as dead before salvation. I know that I am dying yet am thankful to GOD for ever day, and every affliction. Do I think GOD can utterly heal me? Of course. Do I think that he should? No, for all His promises pertaining to healing also pertain to the Holy, and though I strive daily to follow the teachings of Christ and the conscience, I still knowingly sin. I believe all GOD's promises. But to partake in such one must be utterly faithful.

Where in scripture does it specify physical healing? Not that I think GOD wouldn't or couldn't, just don't recall seeing it in scripture myself.

Thanks,

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 
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