Once Saved Always Saved

[Ackbach]

Those who adhere to OSAS are decieved, the original premise was and is a lie

Well, ok. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on the definition of the word "lie". Terms are "clear" or "unclear". Statements, which relate terms, are "true" or "false". Arguments, which relate statements, are "valid" or "invalid". Terms are not true or false, nor are they valid or invalid. Statements are not clear or unclear, nor are they valid or invalid. Arguments are not clear or unclear, nor are they true or false. To each level of an argument belongs its properties. To say otherwise is a category error. A sound argument is a valid argument in which all its terms are clear and its premises true.

A lie is a false statement used by a person intentionally to deceive. To use the word "lie" to mean "false statement", which is the way you're using it here, is, in my opinion, unnecessarily abrasive and rhetorical, as if, to try to make the case you actually believe, you over-compensate and over-state the case. But truth is not helped by over-compensation, but much more often by clarification and zeroing in on the knife-edge of truth.

IMO, OSAS is a case of extreme "over-thinking" and ends up undermining both Law and Gospel. The Law is TRUE.... the Gospel is TRUE..... OSAS thus is not.

If the biblical texts support it (John 17 and others I've mentioned), and an un-distorted version of it provides gospel comfort to believers, then I can't view it as "over-thinking". While it's possible to overthink, it's certainly not done very much in theology by laymen these days.

 

[psalms 91]

Well, ok. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on the definition of the word "lie". Terms are "clear" or "unclear". Statements, which relate terms, are "true" or "false". Arguments, which relate statements, are "valid" or "invalid". Terms are not true or false, nor are they valid or invalid. Statements are not clear or unclear, nor are they valid or invalid. Arguments are not clear or unclear, nor are they true or false. To each level of an argument belongs its properties. To say otherwise is a category error. A sound argument is a valid argument in which all its terms are clear and its premises true.

A lie is a false statement used by a person intentionally to deceive. To use the word "lie" to mean "false statement", which is the way you're using it here, is, in my opinion, unnecessarily abrasive and rhetorical, as if, to try to make the case you actually believe, you over-compensate and over-state the case. But truth is not helped by over-compensation, but much more often by clarification and zeroing in on the knife-edge of truth.



If the biblical texts support it (John 17 and others I've mentioned), and an un-distorted version of it provides gospel comfort to believers, then I can't view it as "over-thinking". While it's possible to overthink, it's certainly not done very much in theology by laymen these days.

Here is the thing, every doctrine that is wrtong comes straight from the devil, I am sure God didnt put it there so to me it is a lie and is meant to decieve

 

[Alithis]

OSAS is most definitely not threatened by the story of Ananias and Sapphira. God deals with His people in two ways: as Judge, and as Father. It's completely possible that A & S were both believers, but their sin needed to be made an example of, so God killed them with physical death. Physical death is (or this whole Christianity thing is a total farce) related to, but most definitely not equivalent to, spiritual death. So God killing them might well be an aspect of God acting as Father, and not as Judge.



See my comment above on [unm]psalms 91[/unm]'s comment.



Then I'm in trouble!



Jesus Christ died for all the sins of all His people for all time. If A&S were in Christ, then all their sins were forgiven (in advance, because they lived after Christ). Jesus Christ's sacrifice is so powerful that it's outside of time, and its efficacy in being applied to the believer is not tied to time.



The fact is, that no one except God knows that. You're making an assumption, quite possibly a very large, unjustifiable one. What in the text indicates that they perished outside the grace of God?



Your understanding of justification does not appear to be very closely aligned with mine. When God changes a person's heart, so that he wants God (before this happens he doesn't), he repents of his sin generally, and is justified before God. That's a one-time event, a one-shot deal. From then on, God as Judge sees only the holy finished work of Christ on the cross. He doesn't see that man's sin any more. Now God still deals with him as a Father, and desires that man to live a holy life, in accordance with his justification. But to say that a believer, because of a sin he committed that he didn't have a chance to repent of, is therefore going to hell, is to minimize what Christ did on the cross.

We are not to take the doctrine of justification by faith alone through grace alone as license to sin. Romans 2:4 and many other passages blow that idea out of the water. No, we are to strive diligently after holiness.

yes . you and all who knowingly sin a sin you know to be sin are in trouble if you do not repent of doing so .. glad you agree .
without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin .
one who says they have repented ,changed their minds and decided to go the other way .. who then reneges and goes back is a man walking one way 3 steps then turning and walking back 3 forward 3 back 3 recurring . he is not following the lord jesus he is standing still in his double mindedness . unwilling to forsake his sin .a double minded man is unstable in ALL his ways .. not just some .
you see there is no other grounds for osas doctrine,no other motive for the false doctrine to exist but to self justify unrepentance and appease the conscience. a teaching that is pleasing to the hearer but encourages disobedience to god .
i know what is sin for me ... (as do all) i know that the lord Jesus has made me a new creation in christ Jesus and set me free from sin. therefore i know that nothing can force me to do that which i plainly KNOW is sinful . not flesh not the devil and certainly not the holy Spirit whom we are to walk in and obey . Since the Lord Jesus has set me free by his own blood -and he has not failed upon the cross ,i am free indeed . therefore cannot accidently go back and do a sin a know to be sin. nor do i desire to .. the spirit desires the things of the spirit the flesh the things of the flesh .

when we have been baptised in christ , buried with him into his death, the flesh dies and we are raised up by faith a new creature in christ with a new nature .. we are now able to live by that new nature .when our old nature ties to rise we ignore it ..its very simple.
we will always do that which we truly desire to do.. a person who sins when they know it is sin does so because they love it the most .they do not love God the most .

the lord jesus said to those who practice iniquity ... (ie do works of sin) " depart from me you workers of iniquity

 

[Ackbach]

Here is the thing, every doctrine that is wrtong comes straight from the devil, I am sure God didnt put it there so to me it is a lie and is meant to decieve

I agree that every lie comes from the devil. Does it follow that every false statement comes from the devil?

But perhaps more importantly, are you talking to the devil, or are you talking with another human being? What's the person you're talking to going to think? Are they automatically going to make the deduction that you're talking about the falsehood originating from the devil, or are they going to think that you're calling them a liar?

We speak the truth, of course. But we must speak the truth in love.

 

[Alithis]

I agree that every lie comes from the devil. Does it follow that every false statement comes from the devil?

But perhaps more importantly, are you talking to the devil, or are you talking with another human being? What's the person you're talking to going to think? Are they automatically going to make the deduction that you're talking about the falsehood originating from the devil, or are they going to think that you're calling them a liar?

We speak the truth, of course. But we must speak the truth in love.

its splitting hairs .. whether the speaker intended to lie or whether they unwittingly repeat some one else lie .. the doctrine remains a lie .
so if the person repeating it or advocating it they become and advocate for a lie .. they show they do not love the truth but love a lie .. pretty much just as it is foretold of the great falling away .
mucking about in the mud of ambiguity is exactly what the serpent did in the garden .. to "deceive" is to present the truth with a cunning twist . thus safer to call it what it is .. " a lie '

let your yes be yes and your no be no .

 

[Cassia]

its splitting hairs .. whether the speaker intended to lie or whether they unwittingly repeat some one else lie .. the doctrine remains a lie .
so if the person repeating it or advocating it they become and advocate for a lie .. they show they do not love the truth but love a lie .. pretty much just as it is foretold of the great falling away .
mucking about in the mud of ambiguity is exactly what the serpent did in the garden .. to "deceive" is to present the truth with a cunning twist . thus safer to call it what it is .. " a lie '

let your yes be yes and your no be no .

Or maybe ya both are just calling God a liar then that would be a sin against the HS eh

 

[Cassia]

I would add my page of why osas is true that entails why ya\ll can't see the forest for the trees because rewards are not figgered in. Just like the prophets of the old testament couldn't see the church age but counted it all as eternity so can't those who do not count in the milleniuum with it's rewards and draw a line between prophesy of eternity. Especially between Calvins and Armenians can those extreems be seen where Hebrews 6 and 10 collide.
Anyway, I believe when He says He will never leave nor forsake and that He is returning and His reward is with Him

 

[Alithis]

OSAS is a lie and always has been

I would add my page of why osas is true that entails why ya\ll can't see the forest for the trees because rewards are not figgered in. Just like the prophets of the old testament couldn't see the church age but counted it all as eternity so can't those who do not count in the millennium with it's rewards and draw a line between prophesy of eternity. Especially between Calvins and Armenians can those extremes be seen where Hebrews 6 and 10 collide.
Anyway, I believe when He says He will never leave nor forsake and that He is returning and His reward is with Him

And to whom is he speaking when he says "he will never leave you nor forsake you"? Its from deuteronomy.and it is to those who have believed and are being obedient and entering into the promises by going and doing what god has told them to do. Take the land .
And to whom does the lord jesus say - "and i will be with you until the end of the age" ?
To those he has just commanded to GO..heal the sick preach the gospel drive out demons baptise people in his name and make more disciples. Again...it is those who are doing what he has told them to do..that he says "and i will be with you."
Not to those who show they dont love him ,displaying it by their disobedience .
And he comes with reward in hand for whom?for those who obeyed.

You will never ever exclude repentance or obedience.and none will be saved without obeying the command to repent.

 

[Cassia]

I can't be bothered to argue over dogma.

 

[Cassia]

But can't resist basically your saying that Jacob was saved and Moses wasn't

 

[Alithis]

But can't resist basically your saying that Jacob was saved and Moses wasn't

nope - what i'm saying is

"And to whom is he speaking when he says "he will never leave you nor forsake you"? Its from deuteronomy.and it is to those who have believed and are being obedient and entering into the promises by going and doing what god has told them to do. Take the land .
And to whom does the lord jesus say - "and i will be with you until the end of the age" ?
To those he has just commanded to GO..heal the sick preach the gospel drive out demons baptise people in his name and make more disciples. Again...it is those who are doing what he has told them to do..that he says "and i will be with you."
Not to those who show they dont love him ,displaying it by their disobedience .
And he comes with reward in hand for whom?for those who obeyed.

You will never ever exclude repentance or obedience.and none will be saved without obeying the command to repent."

 

[Cassia]

I said Jacob but was actually referring to Joshua. I guess Moses was left forsaken in the wilderness wasn't he, but he was not unsaved.

Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often [e]falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close [f]to being cursed, and [g]it ends up being burned.

Works are burnt yet they are saved but as thru fire.

 

[psalms 91]

I said Jacob but was actually referring to Joshua. I guess Moses was left forsaken in the wilderness wasn't he, but he was not unsaved.

Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the [a]elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often [e]falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close [f]to being cursed, and [g]it ends up being burned.

Works are burnt yet they are saved but as thru fire.

Repentance of dead works, not repentance. Dead works as opposed to good works done because of Jesus. You do not throw away everything because the Word does nto state that

 

[Cassia]

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

Those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come have already laid the foundation, at the time they believed. If they fall away and turn back, there is no need for them to lay the foundation again. Hebrews 6:1 indicates that it's not needed

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God,

there is only the need to go on, to be brought on to perfection, to maturity. There is no need for them to repeat repentance, for it is impossible for them to renew themselves unto repentance.


Hebrews 6:4 says that it is not possible

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

and Hebrews 6:7-8 shows that it is not right

Hebrews 6:7-8
For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.
But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.

 

[Josiah]

IMO, there are MANY Scriptures related to this. See post # 6.

 

[psalms 91]

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

Those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come have already laid the foundation, at the time they believed. If they fall away and turn back, there is no need for them to lay the foundation again. Hebrews 6:1 indicates that it's not needed

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God,

there is only the need to go on, to be brought on to perfection, to maturity. There is no need for them to repeat repentance, for it is impossible for them to renew themselves unto repentance.


Hebrews 6:4 says that it is not possible

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

and Hebrews 6:7-8 shows that it is not right

Hebrews 6:7-8
For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.
But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.

Read Hebrews 6 completely, if they fall away once they have tqasted the good gift there is no coming back because they trample underfoot the blood of Jesus and crucify Him again. No, if they fall away in the manner descrivbed there is no coming back

 

[Josiah]

While I'd hesitate to make too much of parables, I can't help but think of the Prodigal Son.... who left but returned (welcomed back).

 

[Alithis]

While I'd hesitate to make too much of parables, I can't help but think of the Prodigal Son.... who left but returned (welcomed back).

yes .. he repented . had he not done so he would have perished .

 

[Alithis]

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

Those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come have already laid the foundation, at the time they believed. If they fall away and turn back, there is no need for them to lay the foundation again. Hebrews 6:1 indicates that it's not needed

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God,

there is only the need to go on, to be brought on to perfection, to maturity. There is no need for them to repeat repentance, for it is impossible for them to renew themselves unto repentance.


Hebrews 6:4 says that it is not possible

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

and Hebrews 6:7-8 shows that it is not right

Hebrews 6:7-8
For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.
But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.

you do know chapters and verses were added ?.. we dont cherry pick verses and force fit them together into a new text and create a new message . read the letter to the hebrews as a whole . ie - in context . it doesnt say what your trying to "make ' it say

 

[Ackbach]

Alithis: could you please clarify something for me? I want to know if you think a man's repentance is something he can do completely on his own strength, or whether he is completely dependent on God's strength to be able to do it?