Modern Day Prophets

[Romanos]

It is a sad time these days when we see many of these "prophets" sprouting up. The Bible states that this will happen, but unfortunately we still have some who look to and adore some of these people.

Does anyone feel that there are some out there who are valid?

 

[psalms 91]

I do and no I cant name them but I can tell you that if my spirit witnesses with it then it is an indication to await a second confirmation but to not disregard it and some have witnessed to things I already had been shown

 

[Ackbach]

I am what you might call a partial cessationist. That is, while I do not believe the gift of Capital T Tongues is still around, I do believe God gifts certain people in languages - my brother, for one. While I do not believe there are any Capital P Prophets around anymore, I do believe God gifts ministers and teachers with the gifts of little p prophecy. Same goes for Apostles. Why do I believe this? Because the apostles and prophets, the Bible says, are the foundation of the church. You can't lay a foundation again, only once. Then you build on it. Once you build, you don't lay the foundation again.

As for any prophets, we have the biblical test: if what they say comes true (and this needs to be absolutely, positively, every single time they preface their prophecy with "Thus says the Lord"), then we pay attention to them. But they still can never go against the Bible. God is a God of order, and not of confusion. He will never contradict Himself. Any "prophet" who says anything contrary to Scripture is ipso facto a false prophet.

The Babylon Bee has a good one on this. For those who don't know, the Babylon Bee provides Onion-like news articles on the Christian world. They're often extremely funny.

 

[visionary]

I am what you might call a partial cessationist. That is, while I do not believe the gift of Capital T Tongues is still around, I do believe God gifts certain people in languages - my brother, for one. While I do not believe there are any Capital P Prophets around anymore, I do believe God gifts ministers and teachers with the gifts of little p prophecy. Same goes for Apostles. Why do I believe this? Because the apostles and prophets, the Bible says, are the foundation of the church. You can't lay a foundation again, only once. Then you build on it. Once you build, you don't lay the foundation again.

As for any prophets, we have the biblical test: if what they say comes true (and this needs to be absolutely, positively, every single time they preface their prophecy with "Thus says the Lord"), then we pay attention to them. But they still can never go against the Bible. God is a God of order, and not of confusion. He will never contradict Himself. Any "prophet" who says anything contrary to Scripture is ipso facto a false prophet.

The Babylon Bee has a good one on this. For those who don't know, the Babylon Bee provides Onion-like news articles on the Christian world. They're often extremely funny.

Even that is not quite right... all prophets even those in the Bible had failures. Jonah failed to pass the message on to Nineveh until lesson learned. Prophets are people first and foremost. Their connection with God is better than those around them, but they are not perfect. God wishes we were all prophets of God. He doesn't want us to depend on another for our spiritual insights but to receive it from Him direct. Especially in these last days, we need true prophets of God, or how else is God going to reveal what He is going to do next.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

 

[Josiah]

It is a sad time these days when we see many of these "prophets" sprouting up. The Bible states that this will happen, but unfortunately we still have some who look to and adore some of these people.

Does anyone feel that there are some out there who are valid?

A "prophet" is primarily a teacher. Yes...... very rarely....... SOME "prophets" occasionally predicted future events - but that's rare and not at all an essential (or normal) function of prophets.


IMO, selves designating SELF as The Voice of God, The Infallible/Unaccountable One, The One lead by God, The One taught by God, The One Infallible Student, The One Infallible Follower - that has been a great problem. The uber individualism, the uber rejection of accountability, the uber deification of self, the uber POWER grabbing.... it's been a great problem. Whether that one is an individual church/denomination/cult or an individiual person.


IMO, the church is US. IMO, God speaks to US. IMO, God leads and teaches US. And WE remain accountable, fallible since WE are sinners and WE ain't God. The extreme, radical individualism and the extreme power-grabbing and "lording it over others as the Gentiles do" must be replaced with a keen sense of humility, community, accountability. But then everyone here knows THAT is my theme, THAT hope is what drives me and virtually all my posts.



My half cent



Pax Christi


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

A "prophet" is primarily a teacher. Yes...... very rarely....... SOME "prophets" occasionally predicted future events - but that's rare and not at all an essential (or normal) function of prophets.


IMO, selves designating SELF as The Voice of God, The Infallible/Unaccountable One, The One lead by God, The One taught by God, The One Infallible Student, The One Infallible Follower - that has been a great problem. The uber individualism, the uber rejection of accountability, the uber deification of self, the uber POWER grabbing.... it's been a great problem. Whether that one is an individual church/denomination/cult or an individiual person.


IMO, the church is US. IMO, God speaks to US. IMO, God leads and teaches US. And WE remain accountable, fallible since WE are sinners and WE ain't God. The extreme, radical individualism and the extreme power-grabbing and "lording it over others as the Gentiles do" must be replaced with a keen sense of humility, community, accountability. But then everyone here knows THAT is my theme, THAT hope is what drives me and virtually all my posts.



My half cent



Pax Christi


- Josiah

How about the majority of those in chuerch that claim they dont hear God

 

[tango]

It is a sad time these days when we see many of these "prophets" sprouting up. The Bible states that this will happen, but unfortunately we still have some who look to and adore some of these people.

Does anyone feel that there are some out there who are valid?

I believe in the gift of prophecy but would be very wary of the people who claim they are prophets in the sense that they speak to the church worldwide. So much of what many of these so-called prophets spout is generic twaddle with so many get-outs and ambiguities that they can claim all sorts of things as a "hit" and still wriggle out even if nothing comes to pass. Some of the claims made by the people quoted at sites like The Elijah List are so outlandish I struggle to see how anyone can take them seriously, but sadly people do.

A blog I often read has an article on it titled "Fortune Cookie Prophecies" that I think sums things up pretty well. It's here ---> http://www.spiritoferror.org/?p=1221

Where I believe the gift of prophecy is still alive and active today is in the context of a more local church setting, and it can manifest in ways that the person speaking the words doesn't necessarily even realise the significance of what they are saying until later. It's the sort of thing that doesn't need to be shouted from the rooftops, the sort of thing that is irrelevant outside of its immediate setting and the sort of thing that can't necessarily even be meaningfully tested outside its immediate setting.

The example I often use is how it can be used as confirmation. If you're wondering whether God is calling you to be a missionary to Uzbekistan you won't find a single Bible verse that will categorically confirm or deny your wonderings. Yes, Jesus said to "go into the world" but that could mean Boston just as easily as Bangkok. But then if someone comes to you and says "Hey Romanos, I think God might be calling you to be a missionary to Uzbekistan" you might figure it's confirmation of the way God was starting to lead you. By the time two or three people had come to you with more or less the same message you'd feel like you were being slapped by God to get on with it. But although you might regard the person giving you that word as being prophetic it wouldn't be relevant to anyone else, and if it were repeated outside of that immediate setting it would be meaningless.

 

[Josiah]

How about the majority of those in chuerch that claim they dont hear God

Good for them!

Sure, there is a SENSE of God "leading" the individual..... but there is a strongly subjective quality to this and I don't believe this normally (with EXTREMELY, very EXTREMELY rare exceptions) does this involve doctrine or what we usually mean by "revelation."). "God 'told' me not to steal my neighbor's newspaper" - OK. "God 'told' me (cuz God and I have these supremely private chats) that Donald Trump is the Son of God and Savior of Humanity" - Hummmmm.

I may just be feeding your point, Bill, but I've never heard God. I know He can make Himself literally heard (remember Moses?) but I've not personally experienced that. If you have - I don't debate that, but my ear drums have never been moved by God's voice (by HUMANS proclaiming His words - yes, of course). Do I sense His leading? Yes. Do I sense His reminding me of Law and Gospel in Scripture? Yes. Is this "hearing" Him? No. Is this receiving revelation? Not in the usual sense. I just don't have the ego to insist that God speaks to ME (just little ol' wonderful ME). Scripture is FILLED with stern, divine warnings about such egotistical, self-centered, self-declared FALSE "prophets". History seems to confirm the need for God's stern warnings (Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Mary Baker Eddy, etc., etc.). IF YOU privately are hearing God's literal words in YOUR unique ears in new revelation to YOU - fine; it's likely meant for YOU (and no one else), privately, individually - so I'd counsel you to keep it to yourself.


I'm uncomfortable with the UBER-individualism that has overtaken Christianity (and the world generally) - dumped on Christianity first by Rome and then far more by the Enlightenment. And the accompanying uber-egoism and uber-rejection of accountability. I have an embrace of humility and community.




My half cent.


- Josiah

 

[Ackbach]

Even that is not quite right... all prophets even those in the Bible had failures.

I'd quite agree.

Jonah failed to pass the message on to Nineveh until lesson learned. Prophets are people first and foremost. Their connection with God is better than those around them, but they are not perfect. God wishes we were all prophets of God. He doesn't want us to depend on another for our spiritual insights but to receive it from Him direct.

Yes and no. There is a 1 Peter sense in which we are all priests, and we interpret God's Word for ourselves, and we must. But I think there is safety in numbers and in church history. If I come out with some "new" hare-brained doctrine (typically just re-hashed heresies), I should be told that I'm in left field (and I'd want to! Heresies are extremely dangerous.)

Also, I think it's necessary to define your use of the word "direct". I do not believe in continuing revelation, as outlined above. I believe that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts in conjunction with the Scriptures, to persuade us of the truth that's there. And Scriptures are sufficient for us, in this way.

Especially in these last days, we need true prophets of God, or how else is God going to reveal what He is going to do next.

If by "prophet" you mean ministers, I'd quite agree. How shall they believe unless they hear? And how can they hear unless someone is sent? God normally works through the ordinary means of grace: preaching, sacraments, prayer, and the reading of the Word.

 

[Josiah]

I'd quite agree.



Yes and no. There is a 1 Peter sense in which we are all priests, and we interpret God's Word for ourselves, and we must. But I think there is safety in numbers and in church history. If I come out with some "new" hare-brained doctrine (typically just re-hashed heresies), I should be told that I'm in left field (and I'd want to! Heresies are extremely dangerous.)

Also, I think it's necessary to define your use of the word "direct". I do not believe in continuing revelation, as outlined above. I believe that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts in conjunction with the Scriptures, to persuade us of the truth that's there. And Scriptures are sufficient for us, in this way.



If by "prophet" you mean ministers, I'd quite agree. How shall they believe unless they hear? And how can they hear unless someone is sent? God normally works through the ordinary means of grace: preaching, sacraments, prayer, and the reading of the Word.

Amen.


It sure is good having you as a part of our little community here!!!!





.

 

[tango]

I'd quite agree.

I think it's also worth differentiating between the concept of the OT prophet with all the authority and responsibility it carried and the NT prophetic gift.

In the OT world the prophet had to get it right or he was executed. If the prophet got it right but led people away from God he was executed. The test was very simple and very brutal if failed.

In the NT world we see Paul saying that two or three prophets should speak and the others should judge. That suggests that having multiple prophets within a church isn't unusual, and also makes it clear that they may get it wrong - there would be no need to judge if the prophet could be deemed accurate without question. Although it is arguably a matter of presentation there's a huge difference between an authoritative "Thus saith the Lord" and a word given in humility along the lines of "I think God might be saying that..." with an associated suggestion to prayerfully consider what was said and the implication that the speaker may be wrong.

Of course for good measure sometimes people can speak in a way that is arguably prophetic without even realising the significance of what they said. Sometimes people might pray during a time of open prayer and hit on something without even knowing they did it. I remember years ago the church I was at had a day of prayer, with an invitation that if anybody felt God was speaking to them they could discuss it with the minister with a view to sharing it with the church. A good friend of mine shared something with the minister and was invited to share it with the church. When the person before him shared, my friend nearly fell off his chair - what this other person shared was an almost identical message. Presumably the minister could see that two people coming to him completely independently with the same message was a good sign that God was behind it.

Yes and no. There is a 1 Peter sense in which we are all priests, and we interpret God's Word for ourselves, and we must. But I think there is safety in numbers and in church history. If I come out with some "new" hare-brained doctrine (typically just re-hashed heresies), I should be told that I'm in left field (and I'd want to! Heresies are extremely dangerous.)

Also, I think it's necessary to define your use of the word "direct". I do not believe in continuing revelation, as outlined above. I believe that the Holy Spirit works in our hearts in conjunction with the Scriptures, to persuade us of the truth that's there. And Scriptures are sufficient for us, in this way.

We need to test prophetic words, we need to test teachings, because if we don't then, as you say, we are vulnerable to being led off into all sorts of heresies. At the same time in many ways Scripture isn't sufficient for every situation when it comes down to testing a personal calling. If I feel God might be calling me into a specific mission there isn't a single verse of Scripture that will clearly and unambiguously tell me that it is from God (although it's entirely possible that Scripture might make it clear that it isn't from God). If I feel God might be calling me to follow in a way that would turn my entire life upside down I'd want to test it, and it seems that if God truly wants me to do such a thing he is quite capable of confirming it through whatever means it takes. Those means could easily include someone I never met before saying they felt God was calling me and describing the calling I was testing in enough detail that I knew they weren't just fishing.

If by "prophet" you mean ministers, I'd quite agree. How shall they believe unless they hear? And how can they hear unless someone is sent? God normally works through the ordinary means of grace: preaching, sacraments, prayer, and the reading of the Word.

I don't have a problem with "God normally works", as long as that doesn't drift into "God only works".

 

[psalms 91]

When flesh enters in a prophet can and will get it wrong. One of the buiggest mistakes is adding to the word given, many people do this

 

[tango]

When flesh enters in a prophet can and will get it wrong. One of the buiggest mistakes is adding to the word given, many people do this

Of course this starts from the premise that the person in question is a prophet. I've seen more than a few people go off the rails chasing shadows with fine-sounding courses like "The Art Of Hearing God" and "How To Hear God" and "Five Steps To Hear God Speak" and the like. Then you've got people like Brent Engelman presenting "prophetic training" which teaches the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches.

 

[tango]

I am what you might call a partial cessationist. That is, while I do not believe the gift of Capital T Tongues is still around, I do believe God gifts certain people in languages - my brother, for one. While I do not believe there are any Capital P Prophets around anymore, I do believe God gifts ministers and teachers with the gifts of little p prophecy. Same goes for Apostles. Why do I believe this? Because the apostles and prophets, the Bible says, are the foundation of the church. You can't lay a foundation again, only once. Then you build on it. Once you build, you don't lay the foundation again.

As for any prophets, we have the biblical test: if what they say comes true (and this needs to be absolutely, positively, every single time they preface their prophecy with "Thus says the Lord"), then we pay attention to them. But they still can never go against the Bible. God is a God of order, and not of confusion. He will never contradict Himself. Any "prophet" who says anything contrary to Scripture is ipso facto a false prophet.

The Babylon Bee has a good one on this. For those who don't know, the Babylon Bee provides Onion-like news articles on the Christian world. They're often extremely funny.

I rather liked this article about the modern prophet batting an impressive .300

http://babylonbee.com/news/modern-day-prophet-batting-impressive-300/

 

[Ackbach]

I rather liked this article about the modern prophet batting an impressive .300

http://babylonbee.com/news/modern-day-prophet-batting-impressive-300/

Yes, I enjoyed that one, too!

 

[pinacled]

I rather liked this article about the modern prophet batting an impressive .300

http://babylonbee.com/news/modern-day-prophet-batting-impressive-300/

The Bakkers
So their children think they can take up the reigns and speak with the mouth of a dragon.

 

[visionary]

I think it's also worth differentiating between the concept of the OT prophet with all the authority and responsibility it carried and the NT prophetic gift.

In the OT world the prophet had to get it right or he was executed. If the prophet got it right but led people away from God he was executed. The test was very simple and very brutal if failed. ...<snipped for brevity and focus>...
.

Since the prophets of OT were often famous for prophecies that were not even in their centuries, but ours, and since they were killed because of their predictions {whether right or wrong} were not favorable to the ruling class, I would say that Yeshua suffered the same fate.

 

[visionary]

Here is the thing about prophecies and prophets. Most prophets never declared themselves as prophets. It is usually others who give them that title. They reported what they saw in vision often reluctantly. They reported what they were inspired to say. God spoke to them, showed them something, and they repeated it to those around them or to those who needed to hear it. And not everyone who speaks about what they saw, heard, or understood from God were even good people.

Balaam was looking to make a little extra cash, God stepped in and Balaam knew better than to argue with God.

Numbers 22:12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

Think about Caiaphas, who probably unbeknownst to him, prophesied more than even he could have imagined. Caiaphas was a bought man. It was not Caiaphas who understood what depth to meaning can be found in his statement. John did and recorded it here with the more in depth explanation.

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[tango]

Since the prophets of OT were often famous for prophecies that were not even in their centuries, but ours, and since they were killed because of their predictions {whether right or wrong} were not favorable to the ruling class, I would say that Yeshua suffered the same fate.

True, although typically they already established a track record so they could be regarded as credible rather than people with outlandish ideas. There's also a big difference between a prophecy that is very specific and a prophecy that is so vague that just about anything could be considered a match.

I remember reading one "prophet" on the Elijah list who "prophesied" that a new spirit of generosity was about to sweep the nation. His "prophecy" was published a few weeks before Christmas. Wow, people being generous at Christmas time. I'm stunned that anyone could have predicted it with such accuracy. Sadly the rest of his "prophecy" was just a load of generic twaddle and what little did have any specifics didn't come to pass.

 

[visionary]

True, although typically they already established a track record so they could be regarded as credible rather than people with outlandish ideas. There's also a big difference between a prophecy that is very specific and a prophecy that is so vague that just about anything could be considered a match.

I remember reading one "prophet" on the Elijah list who "prophesied" that a new spirit of generosity was about to sweep the nation. His "prophecy" was published a few weeks before Christmas. Wow, people being generous at Christmas time. I'm stunned that anyone could have predicted it with such accuracy. Sadly the rest of his "prophecy" was just a load of generic twaddle and what little did have any specifics didn't come to pass.

You are right that today's "prophets" are little more than Baal's men