When people doubt that the Holy Spirit is at work

[Lamb]

The Holy Spirit guides us into truth and guides us into producing fruit and doing works He has planned for us.

Our sinful nature gets in the way. I see people complain a lot about other Christians trying to judge if they're truly Christian because THEY don't see them doing good works or producing fruit. The way I see it is that these people who are judging doubt that the Holy Spirit is doing his job! Just because they do not "see" what the Holy Spirit is doing they feel they have the right to declare whether or not that person truly has faith.

 

[psalms 91]

While yes, not always do we see the Holy Spirit at work in time we will see the fruits or else I question where they are at in their spiritual walk. If you are following the spirit then good works will follow

 

[Lamb]

Are you always around most people though to actually see their fruits? Most likely no.

 

[visionary]

I have often puzzled over the state of some believers. I prayed about them, for them, and with them. The best thing the Lord has done is having me step back and witness Him at work. I am so busy wanting now, that the Lord has to say "wait". I have been blessed with more patience because of this. I have seen His hand working on those who are not ready yet for the light I thought they needed at that moment, and it turned out that they could not handle it because they were not ready. This is a learning curve.

The Lord leads us to the cross, but there was much prayer and encouragement to get them even there. Not all choose to go even with everything given to them, in prayers and teachings. We just do not see the heart like the Lord does. He is wise and in knowing that wisdom, I have learned to rejoice in how far they have come, and not criticize the lack of speed to catch up to where I am. Like I know everything PHTTTTP!!! NOT even close. So who am I to judge another man's walk.

Just because someone declares to know Him, doesn't make it so. Just because someone is baptized, taken communion, been to church every week including weekly bible study doesn't make them "know" Him. So if you see your brethren or just people in general who obviously don't know the Lord, by their actions, prayer is needed more than criticisms. Let's not gossip about their failures either. You have no idea what battles they are going through to make it this far. Live your life by example, befriend them, show them the way in your actions and praise and encourage them to take another step forward in faith.

 

[Lamb]

So true. We don't know what anyone is going through and thankfully it's not up to us to decide who has faith and who doesn't. It's not the amount of faith that makes us Christian. It's that we HAVE faith.

The size of a mustard seed is so small but what does the bible say about it? Now we think about those we see are struggling with faith. Perhaps they have the most minute amount. We can't see that. But God does.

I guess it gets so irritating seeing people say, "Well, those people who ____, they just aren't real Christians."

 

[tango]

The Holy Spirit guides us into truth and guides us into producing fruit and doing works He has planned for us.

Our sinful nature gets in the way. I see people complain a lot about other Christians trying to judge if they're truly Christian because THEY don't see them doing good works or producing fruit. The way I see it is that these people who are judging doubt that the Holy Spirit is doing his job! Just because they do not "see" what the Holy Spirit is doing they feel they have the right to declare whether or not that person truly has faith.

I think this is one where a degree of balance is required.

If someone claims to be a Christian but still visits strip joints, gets riproaringly drunk on a regular basis, curses like a drunken sailor and treats the people around him very badly I think we would be entirely right to question their claim to be a Christian. Jesus told us we would know people by their fruit, and if the fruit is rotten we might do well to question which spirit is responsible for them.

On the other hand it's very easy to look for the slightest failure as "evidence" that the person in our sights isn't truly a Christian, conveniently overlooking the fact that our own walk is far from perfect. So perhaps we have the minister that we're trying to force out of our church who is a fine upstanding Christian and walks the walk, but the one time we see him get short with a slow checkout assistant is the "proof" that he's not fit for the role. Of course we don't know why he got short on that one occasion - perhaps he had spent many hours late into the night repeatedly with parishioners who had specific needs and had just got yet another call that he was needed.

A lot of the time we can't be close enough to someone to see the fruit of their lives. This is particularly true of people we only see on TV or in other stage-managed arenas. Sometimes all we can do when asked to consider fruit is to conclude that we don't know, although we can look at their teaching and determine whether it aligns with God's word. If it does not we would be well advised to avoid them, although even then we can't know for sure whether they are leading us astray intentionally or if they truly believe what they are teaching.

 

[psalms 91]

I think this is one where a degree of balance is required.

If someone claims to be a Christian but still visits strip joints, gets riproaringly drunk on a regular basis, curses like a drunken sailor and treats the people around him very badly I think we would be entirely right to question their claim to be a Christian. Jesus told us we would know people by their fruit, and if the fruit is rotten we might do well to question which spirit is responsible for them.

On the other hand it's very easy to look for the slightest failure as "evidence" that the person in our sights isn't truly a Christian, conveniently overlooking the fact that our own walk is far from perfect. So perhaps we have the minister that we're trying to force out of our church who is a fine upstanding Christian and walks the walk, but the one time we see him get short with a slow checkout assistant is the "proof" that he's not fit for the role. Of course we don't know why he got short on that one occasion - perhaps he had spent many hours late into the night repeatedly with parishioners who had specific needs and had just got yet another call that he was needed.

A lot of the time we can't be close enough to someone to see the fruit of their lives. This is particularly true of people we only see on TV or in other stage-managed arenas. Sometimes all we can do when asked to consider fruit is to conclude that we don't know, although we can look at their teaching and determine whether it aligns with God's word. If it does not we would be well advised to avoid them, although even then we can't know for sure whether they are leading us astray intentionally or if they truly believe what they are teaching.

Why would we even want to judge those we do not know or know what they might do? It is evident over time if someone has good works or not, it is also evident if someone is quick to judge and condemn

 

[tango]

Why would we even want to judge those we do not know or know what they might do? It is evident over time if someone has good works or not, it is also evident if someone is quick to judge and condemn

We may need to determine whether someone's teachings are sound, for example.

I have no particular need to make a specific judgment whether you are a real Christian or not. I can't see your fruit, I have never met you and, if I'm totally blunt, it makes no difference to my life whether you're the second holiest man ever to walk this earth or the antichrist incarnate. On the other hand, if you were looking for a leadership position in my church I'd take more of an interest, if you were promoting your teachings I'd take more of an interest, if you were encouraging me to behave in a certain way I'd take more of an interest.

If you were looking for a leadership position in my church I'd obviously be in a better place to see your fruit first hand and could see for myself whether the general pattern of your life represented the fruit of the Spirit (realising that none of us are perfect and me seeing you losing it once doesn't mean you're not a proper Christian). If you were promoting your teachings I'd need to make sure they aligned with the Word of God before accepting them or I could be led down all sorts of theological blind alleys. Likewise if you were encouraging me to behave in a certain way I'd want to make sure that way was Scripturally appropriate, and if it was not I'd wonder whether something was wrong.

If someone has good works that doesn't necessarily prove anything at all. I'm sure many of us can find people who are "good" people, who are charitable, who tick all the boxes to indicate they are fine upstanding members of society and help those less fortunate, but who are atheists or occultists or whatever else. Their good works are all well and good but don't make their message theologically sound.

There's no need to rush to condemn but at the same time we need to determine what is sound and what is not, and if we refuse to judge then we have no way of differentiating the good teachers from the wolves.

 

[psalms 91]

Within the church we are to judge and yes teaching and preaching should be judged according to the word but I thought the question was about fruit

 

[Rens]

I once wanted to take a basket of apples and bananas to church, so they could see my fruit. Lol got a bit tired of those preachings.

 

[visionary]

I once wanted to take a basket of apples and bananas to church, so they could see my fruit. Lol got a bit tired of those preachings.

:bananmac::banana-dance::banana_004::banana-dance::bananmac: I would have loved to see that. I would appreciate "your fruit" ...

 

[tango]

Within the church we are to judge and yes teaching and preaching should be judged according to the word but I thought the question was about fruit

I saw the question as being about the question of whether the Holy Spirit was really at work. One focus was on seeing the fruit although I wouldn't say that's necessarily the sole focus of the question.

 

[Alithis]

Are you always around most people though to actually see their fruits? Most likely no.

your op is a valid point .. but its when they are not around people they are far more likely to ..be up to mischief lol

(im trying to lighten up here )

maybe a thread topic discussing what good fruits are .. ??
fruits of the spirit are fruits of the spirit .
to my thinking they differ from the good fruits we bring forth as a result of the tree into whom we are grafted

 

[Alithis]

I once wanted to take a basket of apples and bananas to church, so they could see my fruit. Lol got a bit tired of those preachings.

ouh i had to retract my first joking reply .. may have unwittingly offended

 

[Rens]

ouh i had to retract my first joking reply .. may have unwittingly offended

No problem. It was years ago. Don't feel the need to take apples to church anymore.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Holy Spirit guides us into truth and guides us into producing fruit and doing works He has planned for us.

Our sinful nature gets in the way. I see people complain a lot about other Christians trying to judge if they're truly Christian because THEY don't see them doing good works or producing fruit. The way I see it is that these people who are judging doubt that the Holy Spirit is doing his job! Just because they do not "see" what the Holy Spirit is doing they feel they have the right to declare whether or not that person truly has faith.

The scriptural promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the faithful into all truth is couched in plural language. It is not a promise that individuals will be led into all truth. It promises that the whole body of the faithful will be led into all truth. It's corporate leading that the Lord promises.

John 16:12-13 [12] I still have many things to say to you[SUP]*[/SUP], but you[SUP]*[/SUP] are not able to bear them now. [13] But when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you[SUP]*[/SUP]. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you[SUP]*[/SUP] the things that are to come.

* plural in the source language.

 

[Lamb]

The Holy Spirit gives us enough knowledge of truth for salvation Beyond, that anything else will be explained to us in heaven since we will not know everything there is to know while here on Earth.

 

[Josiah]

The scriptural promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the faithful into all truth is couched in plural language. It is not a promise that individuals will be led into all truth. It promises that the whole body of the faithful will be led into all truth. It's corporate leading that the Lord promises.

I agree. It's probably the most important single reason why I left the RC Denomination.

John 16:12-13 [12] I still have many things to say to you[SUP]*[/SUP], but you[SUP]*[/SUP] are not able to bear them now. [13] But when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you[SUP]*[/SUP]. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you[SUP]*[/SUP] the things that are to come.

* plural in the source language.

EXACTLY! It does NOT say, "I will lead the singular, individual, unique, sole Roman Catholic Denomination and make IT and IT ITSELF individually and singularly and exclusively and uniquely the one Infallible and Unaccountable Student." When we find individuals (whether such be some person or some denomination/sect/cult) deleting the words of Jesus' promise and substituting the above, this is a sure sign of a power-quest, an evasion of accountability, and a big red flag of what is likely a false prophet. See the current Catholic Catechism # 85 and 87, etc. See the identical claims from LDS Father Bruce McConkie in "The Authority of the Church." See every "cult" on the planet.




Thank you.


Pax Christi


- Josiah




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[tango]

I agree. It's probably the most important single reason why I left the RC Denomination.

EXACTLY! It does NOT say, "I will lead the singular, individual, unique, sole Roman Catholic Denomination and make IT and IT ITSELF individually and singularly and exclusively and uniquely the one Infallible and Unaccountable Student." When we find individuals (whether such be some person or some denomination/sect/cult) deleting the words of Jesus' promise and substituting the above, this is a sure sign of a power-quest, an evasion of accountability, and a big red flag of what is likely a false prophet. See the current Catholic Catechism # 85 and 87, etc. See the identical claims from LDS Father Bruce McConkie in "The Authority of the Church." See every "cult" on the planet.

This is far from being an exclusively Catholic thing. Look at the way the modern day apostles and prophets are expected to be revered within movements like the New Apostolic Reformation.

 

[Josiah]

The scriptural promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the faithful into all truth is couched in plural language. It is not a promise that individuals will be led into all truth. It promises that the whole body of the faithful will be led into all truth. It's corporate leading that the Lord promises.

John 16:12-13 [12] I still have many things to say to you*, but you* are not able to bear them now. [13] But when the Spirit of truth has arrived, he will teach the whole truth to you*. For he will not be speaking from himself. Instead, whatever he will hear, he will speak. And he will announce to you* the things that are to come.

* plural in the source language.


.

I agree. It's probably the most important single reason why I left the RC Denomination.


The promise in John 16 does NOT say, "I will lead the singular, individual, unique Roman Catholic Denomination and make IT and IT ITSELF individually and singularly and exclusively and uniquely The One Infallible and Unaccountable Student/Follower which therefore must be regarded as unaccountable." When we find individuals (whether such be some person or some denomination/sect/cult) deleting the words of Jesus' promise and substituting the above, this is a sure sign of a power-quest, an evasion of accountability, and a big red flag of what is likely a false prophet. See the current Catholic Catechism # 85 and 87, etc. See the identical claims from LDS Father Bruce McConkie in "The Authority of the Church." See every "cult" on the planet.


.

This is far from being an exclusively Catholic thing. Look at the way the modern day apostles and prophets are expected to be revered within movements like the New Apostolic Reformation.

I completely agree! Sadly, it's found even among some who claim to be "Protestant." And of course, it's a hallmark of all the "cults" (known to me). It's a big red flag (as well as dishonest and power-grabbing and egotistical).



Pax Christi



- Josiah



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