Ever Virgin

[visionary]

It is not the believing in Mary remaining a virgin that is dangerous, but it is what goes with believing, that is. Images of Mary have been crying blood, water tears. She has appeared here and there. Beatles sang tribute with "Let it be". Muslims and Catholics both worship/venerate her. Catholics have elevated her to co-matrix. It is a cult religion and if given a choice, RCC would elevate Mary to above Jesus. As it is now, they pray to Mary to intercede on their behalf, rather than Jesus. In almost all the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptered and enthroned as the Queen of heaven.

Mary has not risen and will not rise until the trump shall sound, when she will come forth and cast her crown at the feet of our Messiah Yeshua, along with the countless throng that no man can number.

Yeshua was a divine being before His human birth

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.

Yeshua was divine after the Resurrection

John 20:28 My Lord and my God.

Yeshua was not divine during his human incarnation.

Phil 2:7 made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:9 Jesus was made a little lower [or, for a little while lower] than the angels for the suffering of death.

1 John 4:2 Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Since Yeshua was not divine during his incarnation, Mary was the mother of a human being, not the mother of "God".

 

[visionary]

There is no hint in the Bible that New Testament Christians ever regarded Mary as more than a good woman. She had no authority among the apostles. No one was taught to pray to her, to do her homage, to adore her, or to partake of the unscriptural worship which Catholics do, but call it veneration.

 

[visionary]

This is so wrong...

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[visionary]

This is so wrong.. where does one begin to help those who believe in this crap to open their eyes to the truth..

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

 

[visionary]

You see in order to perpetuate the lie, you have do declare another lie. Like there was an unbroken chain on sinless people throughout the centuries breeding towards the day when they would have a perpetual virgin breed Jesus. Explain that to Adam and Eve and the countless generations of sinners who never once mentioned this pure line of sinless beings.

Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... continue to venerate, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God, conceived without original sin.

 

[psalms 91]

There is no hint in the Bible that New Testament Christians ever regarded Mary as more than a good woman. She had no authority among the apostles. No one was taught to pray to her, to do her homage, to adore her, or to partake of the unscriptural worship which Catholics do, but call it veneration.

You got it, truth

 

[psalms 91]

Bill - which is the individual whom God leads (and that one - uniquely - is the infallible follower), which is the individual whom God teaches (and that one uniquely is the infallible student)?

Now, if it's NOT uniquely Jim Jones or Brigham Young or you or me or the Man in the Moon..... then God is speaking to US. True - some may not listen..... some may misunderstand..... some may edit the message to fit their own thoughts..... but it's still God speaking and leading US.

I don't deny a "personal relationship with God" I just deny one alone has such a relationship, one alone is lead by God, one alone is taught by God, one alone is the infallible student, one alone is the infallible follower, one alone knows what God thinks and wants and says, one alone is taught and lead, one alone hears and obeys (and it just happens to be ME).


To the point, sure - ONE may say, "I heard God tell just ME - just little ole very, very, very special and wonderful and holy ME - that there are purple people living on Jupiter and we'll become one when we die." I wouldn't even deny their sincerity. But I do disagree with that rubric, that attitude, that insistence. I don't deny such on very, very, very, very rare occasions HAS happened (God speaking to Moses in the burning bush, for example) but it's not a principle all can or should apply to self, to all individuals today. Especially with some condemnation that if they don't hear such voices, ergo they don't have a relationship with God or aren't Christian or just aren't as pure, as holy, as wonderful as SELF. I hope you understand.


Theologically, I reject the uber-individualism of the Enlightenment that (IMO, tragically) has overtaken much of modern Christianity. I still embrace community, family, the PEOPLE of God.



Thank you. And forgive me for the diversions. Back to the issue of the thread....



- Josiah

Who ever said one? There are many who share that type of relationship but it is individual for all. God is open to anyone but they have to be open to Him and so few are nowadays. People either dont believe that God speaks today or thta they can be taught by other thanm man. People get wrapped up in the orld wioth jobs, relationships, the pleasures of this world and they all drown out the voice of God. What I am saying is nothing new it is all through the bible. Everyone who was ever used by God had that relationship and many in the New testament had it alos. Look at Paul who was a pharasee and once he had his experience with Jesus he had to be taught again. Spent three years being taught and then proceeded to write 3/4 of the New testament

 

[visionary]

Who ever said one? There are many who share that type of relationship but it is individual for all. God is open to anyone but they have to be open to Him and so few are nowadays. People either don't believe that God speaks today or that they can be taught by other than man. People get wrapped up in the world with jobs, relationships, the pleasures of this world and they all drown out the voice of God. What I am saying is nothing new it is all through the bible. Everyone who was ever used by God had that relationship and many in the New testament had it also. Look at Paul who was a Pharasee and once he had his experience with Jesus he had to be taught again. Spent three years being taught and then proceeded to write 3/4 of the New testament

I agree... And I see those who would choose the church of their choice over following God outside of this church, because they have been taught that it knows the way and will save them.

 

[visionary]

She didin't drink the cup that Yeshua agonized over that night of anquish.

In 1923, Pope Pius XI sanctioned Pope Benedict XV's (1914-1922) pronouncement that Mary suffered with Christ, and that with Him, she redeemed the human race.

 

[Full O Beans]

Yes I know we've done a ton of Mary threads, but I wanted to discuss this since I've been thinking about it. I know this is a hair splitting discussion between many Christians, so wanted to gather opinions.

Orthodoxy says Mary was Ever Virgin which is what I believe.

You can believe it all you like, but Mary and Joseph had other children. The scripture even says they had sex! There is no room for misinterpretation here, for the word is UNAMBIGUOUS!

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

 

[George]

You can believe it all you like, but Mary and Joseph had other children. The scripture even says they had sex! There is no room for misinterpretation here, for the word is UNAMBIGUOUS!

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

How was it written in the original language?

 

[Josiah]

You can believe it all you like, but Mary and Joseph had other children. The scripture even says they had sex! There is no room for misinterpretation here, for the word is UNAMBIGUOUS!

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

Obviously, this verse says NOTHING about Mary having other children. NOTHING.

It doesn't even remotely indicate that Mary had sex - before or after the birth of Jesus (resulting in a child or otherwise). The word "until" in the original koine Greek does not even remotely IMPLY such - much less state such (the possible IMPLICATION of the modern ENGLISH word used in the TRANSLATION might - might - IMPLY that, but the original Greek does not, not at all, not a bit).


I just find it ... humorous..... that some will rebuke Catholics and Orthodox (and some Protestants) for saying that Mary did not have sex after Jesus was born because the Bible does not specifically state that.... then equally and dogmatically insist that Mary not only had sex but had other kids then PROVE (persistently!) that that Bible does not state that. Pot calling kettle black. Log/speck point.


IF the Bible doesn't say - then the Bible does not say. One MIGHT look to ancient tradition (and find ALL positions in such)...... one MIGHT insert personal opinions (and hang ups) imposed onto the text..... but the Bible remains silent on the issue. Just like 99% of denominations. Perhaps it doesn't matter so much. Perhaps it's none of our business. But silence is silence, not dogmatic proclamation - for or against.




Thank you.


Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

" UNTIL" being the key word in the verse under discussion.

heós: till, until
Original Word: ἕως
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: heós
Phonetic Spelling: (heh'-oce)
Short Definition: until, as far as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.

temporal terminus ad quem

The Bible does not affirm that she had no children afterward. Indeed, all the accounts in the New Testament lead us to suppose that she did have them. See the notes at Matthew 13:55-56. The language here evidently implies that she lived as the wife of Joseph after the birth of Jesus.

 

[psalms 91]

" UNTIL" being the key word in the verse under discussion.

heós: till, until
Original Word: ἕως
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: heós
Phonetic Spelling: (heh'-oce)
Short Definition: until, as far as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.

temporal terminus ad quem

The Bible does not affirm that she had no children afterward. Indeed, all the accounts in the New Testament lead us to suppose that she did have them. See the notes at Matthew 13:55-56. The language here evidently implies that she lived as the wife of Joseph after the birth of Jesus.

Yup

 

[Josiah]

" UNTIL" being the key word in the verse under discussion.

heós: till, until
Original Word: ἕως
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: heós
Phonetic Spelling: (heh'-oce)
Short Definition: until, as far as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.

temporal terminus ad quem

Correct. It states NOTHING about after that, it only affirms that up to that time. There is NO even implication of anything after that. In modern ENGLISH, in the translation of the Greek to "until", there CAN be an IMPLICATION that such was not the case after that, but that is not an implication of the Greek. Therefore, this verse cannot be used to note some vague IMPLICATION that afterward, she may have had sex. It's just not in the Greek. At all. Not a bit. It MIGHT be in the modern English understanding of the English word used in the translation (perhaps) but not at all in the original. It indicates NOTHING about whether Mary and Joseph DID or DID NOT have marital intimaces.

The Bible does not affirm that she had no children afterward

Correct. It EQUALLY does not affirm that she did.



Again, I just find it ... curious.... that some will rebuke Catholics and Orthodox (and some Protestants) for saying that Mary did not have sex after Jesus was born because the Bible does not specifically state that.... then equally and dogmatically insist that Mary not only had sex but had other kids - then PROVE (persistently!) that that Bible does not state that. Pot calling kettle black? Log/speck point?





.

 

[meluckycharms]

How was it written in the original language?

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (Matthew 1:25) NIV

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (Matthew 1:25) KJV

γινώσκω ginōskō know
BDAG know, know about, make acquaintance of; learn (of), ascertain, find out; understand, comprehend; perceive, notice, realize; have sex/marital relations with,; have come to know, know
Louw-Nida to have sexual intercourse with
DBL Greek know; learn; be familiar with; understand; acknowledge; have sexual intercourse
LEH LXX Lexicon to come to know, to perceive; to know; to recognize; to form a judgement, to think; to acknowledge as true; to know carnally
LXGRCANLEX know; to know; to have sex; to know; to learn; to know
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint know; perceive; learn; ידע; know; ראה; see; דַּ֫עַת

So based on the original Greek, there are only two options. Either the NIV is correct in its translation or Joseph was a complete stranger until Jesus was born. Since the later is obviously incorrect and contradicts scripture, the only version that sticks it consummate.


I guess Mary not consummating the marriage until after Jesus was born means that Mary never consummated the marriage?

 

[psalms 91]

yup she did consummate the marriage, that was easy and clear

 

[meluckycharms]

yup she did consummate the marriage, that was easy and clear

It was just a hint of sarcasm. Apparently if a kid told his parents, "I didn't do drugs at the party. I waited until after the party" means the kid did not do drugs?

 

[psalms 91]

ok so you are saying she didnt?

 

[meluckycharms]

ok so you are saying she didnt?

No, it is obvious if you plainly read scripture that Mary and Joseph consummated the marriage. Any other way of reading it is a stretch.