Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time

[Josiah]

Read post 107 and then tell me that you didn't state that you don't understand how Jesus can be the savior if not GOD, and since you can't understand it it isn't true.

1. Nothing dogmatic was said.

2. If a mere mortal human could be the Savior, then why did God give His Only Son, why sacrifice the Incarnate Second Person of the Trinity? Why didn't the death of John the Baptist save all, why didn't his death (or any other mere human you could name) atone for the sins of all, why didn't John the Baptist (or any other mere human you can name) rise from the dead via His own power/authority? Why did God NEED to sacrifice himself?

3. If you can be perfect in our stead, when why aren't YOU the Savior? If you can take all the sins of the world and suffer for such, why didn't you? If you - a mere human - could rise from the dead and all rise with you - why don't you? Who would need Jesus - the God and Man - if mere humans can do the same things He did?



Back to the issue of this thread....




.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Josiah,

In the spirit of profitable conversation between brothers I'm going to let things go. I think we were already on topic though.


Why are you asking me why GOD had to sacrifice himself to himself?

That's what I was asking you because it makes no sense to me. So why are you asking me the same thing?

Why are you saying that death of any is what saves? Be it the death of GOD (nonsensical, unbiblical), the death of the anointed one (scriptural/sensical), or the death of the one who was set to make the way for the savior? (Where not many baptised by John? Was his doctrine contrary to that of Jesus the Christ?)

His own power and authority? Have you read in scripture where Jesus repeatedly proclaims that his power authority and will are not his own, but GOD's?

Perhaps this is where that dual nature thing comes into play? Is that in scripture by the way?

Makes perfect sense to understand that Christ meant what he said about about authority and humility. And that he was obideint and faithful to GOD utterly and wholly, and as such, through his teachings, example, and self sacrifice(not death, as Christ is not dead) he is our savior, the anointed one, and the way to GOD.

Why did GOD need to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself? Yes, that is the question at hand that pertains to the topic at hand. Please answer it instead of repeating it. Thank you in advance.


Why do I need to be perfect instead of you? Did the Christ not show us the way to be pleasing to GOD through his teachings, example, and self sacrifice?

What would suffering for your sins do for you if you still sin?

Wouldn't it make sense to show all the way to GOD even if it cost you this temporal existence. In fact isn't that what Christ did, yet only died in body as his spirit was wholly of GOD and returned there?

I couldn't help but notice you keep saying mere human. The man Jesus doesn't have to be mere human to be the Christ. He doesn't have to be the full utter countenance of GOD either though.

Tell me; which is simple and easily understandable?

A)the One Creator GOD who is just and benevolent had a son that was actually eternal just as GOD. This exact same thing was placed on earth and killed to please itself, somehow saving us from sin while not showing us any other direction but continued sin.

Or

B)the One Creator GOD who is benevolent, ultimately ordaining all things, ordained a man. A perfectly white light full of oil that could light the way for all to follow; being a man himself, though wholly of GOD, giving us, showing ua what is needed to return home.

Even if others can be perfect, it is and always Wil be rd he Christ that shows them.

Peace


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[psalms 91]

He had to die as a man otherwise how can He pay the price for our sin? How can He relate as it says He does

 

[Josiah]

Josiah,

Why are you asking me why GOD had to sacrifice himself to himself?

Because you specifically asked why I shared (in passing) that Jesus had to be both God and Man to be our Savior. You ignored every Scripture and all the points I made to ask about that personal opinion. I responded. You didn't reply to my response. And of course, this thread is not about WHY Jesus is both God and man but rather WHETHER Jesus is both divine and human - the point I addressed with a great, great many Scriptures all indicating such.

Why are you saying that death of any is what saves? Be it the death of GOD (nonsensical, unbiblical), the death of the anointed one (scriptural/sensical), or the death of the one who was set to make the way for the savior? (Where not many baptised by John? Was his doctrine contrary to that of Jesus the Christ?)

Yes, I think that death was critical to the issue of justification. But this thread is not about WHETHER Jesus died on the Cross (perhaps for no reason except JEsus thought it might be fun) it's about WHETHER Jesus is both God and man - inseparately, always. I offered a great, great many Scriptures that indicate that but you might not have noticed.

he was obideint and faithful to GOD utterly and wholly, and as such, through his teachings, example, and self sacrifice(not death, as Christ is not dead) he is our savior, the anointed one, and the way to GOD.

Yes, Jesus is submissive to the will of the First Person. But that has NOTHING to do with His not also being God. A Marine private is submissive to the Marine general - but the private is no less human than the general. You are confusing issues.

Why do I need to be perfect instead of you? Did the Christ not show us the way to be pleasing to GOD through his teachings, example, and self sacrifice?

IF (you missed that word - I put it all in caps for emphasis but you missed it).... IF you (a mere human) can be perfect then I see your point (Jesus could be just like you - and not also divine) but then there would be no need for a Savior IF you can do all that is necessary for salvation.

I couldn't help but notice you keep saying mere human. The man Jesus doesn't have to be mere human to be the Christ. He doesn't have to be the full utter countenance of GOD either though.

I agree. Jesus could be what the Bible says: BOTH God and man. BOTH. Fully. Always. And yes, IMO, this is critical to His ministry as Savior (otherwise, any human could do what He did - if divinity is not essential).

Tell me; which is simple and easily understandable?

A)the One Creator GOD who is just and benevolent had a son that was actually eternal just as GOD. This exact same thing was placed on earth and killed to please itself, somehow saving us from sin while not showing us any other direction but continued sin.

Wrong. Jesus wasn't "AS" God, He IS God. See the long, long list of a great many Scriptures I gave that state that. You might want to look up Docetism, historically and ecumenically denounced as heresy and clearly unbiblical.

B)the One Creator GOD who is benevolent, ultimately ordaining all things, ordained a man. A perfectly white light full of oil that could light the way for all to follow; being a man himself, though wholly of GOD, giving us, showing ua what is needed to return home.

Wrong. It's not only unbiblical and heretical, it destroys Christianity because it eliminates Jesus as the Savior.



The Biblical, historical, ecumenical, Christian, simple, understandable answer: Jesus is both fully God and man - together but not blended, inseparable. As the Scriptures I listed for you teach. And as the church has proclaimed for over 1700 years - universally, ecumenically.




Pax



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Again....


The TWO Natures of Christ.... As affirmed by the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils



1. Jesus is BOTH God/divine and man/human. BOTH. 100%. It's not either/or but both/and. True, his human nature is without sin but that in no sense makes it less human (it makes it more human - the humanity of Adam and Eve before the fall). 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5-6.


2. These two natures are INSEPARABLE and UNITED - like two sides of the same coin. We may be only seeing one side at at given time; only one side might be active in some thing, but both sides are always present because they are inseparable. Two sides of the SAME coin. These are not merged into a new, third reality - but both remain, and both remain united. Where one "side" of the reality is, ergo so "is" the other.


3. While the Incarnation happened in time/space, this unity is beyond that. Read carefully John 1:1 ff, John 8:58, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Matthew 18:20, Romans 9:5. Thus, we may speak of JESUS being at Creation and JESUS being with us always - and this JESUS has two inseparable natures: God and Man, divine and human. Note: it does NOT say, "The Son was present at Creation" it says "YOU (Jesus) were, etc.


4. There is not a sharp distinction in terms of duties or fruits or attributes or properties. See Luke 9:56 and Romans 9:5 and 1 Tim 2:5 and Hebrews 2:14 (humanity saving), with First John 1:12 and 1 Cor. 2:8 and Acts 3:15 and Galatians 2:20 (divinity saves), note that First John 1:14 contains both in the same verse. Note JESUS says he had us with us before the world was (John 17:5). JESUS is eternal (Hebrews 13:8), JESUS knows all things (John 21:17). Mary gives birth to GOD with us (Matthew 1:23). JESUS is everywhere (Matthew 18:20). JESUS knows all things (Colossians 2:3). JESUS is all powerful (Matthew 28:18). Miracles done by Jesus reveal HIS glory (John 1:14). Thus, it is unbiblical to insist that ONLY BY ONE NATURE can Christ be this or that.


5. God dwells in CHRIST - the flesh - "in fullness." Colossians 2:9. It's not a partial or sometime kind of thing.



SOME NOTES ......

1. Yet it seems possible for ONE nature to be involved without the others (as if looking at ONE SIDE of the coin - that side being the active side). The humanity of JEsus died on the Cross, God did not. Jesus says, "no one knows - not even the Son of man but only God" (an INTERESTING verse - because if taken literally, Jesus BOTH knew and did not know - suggesting some sense of a lack of communication?) Another case, Luke 2:52 - his humanity increases in knowledge even though his divine nature is all knowing always. The DIVINE nature MAY "communicate" with the human, the human does not communicate with the divine

2. The impeccability of Christ is interesting..... While Catholics (borrowing from Augustine) argue such (nondogmatically) from Jesus not having a human father (sin moving via male DNA) and Mary being without Original Sin just as a back up (lol), I've heard LUtherans argue (again, nondogmatically) that this is a fruit of the communication of attributes: his human nature is without sin by virtue of being "united" with his divine - the divine 'communicating' with the human.



EVEN MORE SCRIPTURES....


John 1:1-16 [1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. [7] He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. [9] The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11] He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. [12] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [15] (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) [16] For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. [17] For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Notice says, "I AM (I.... JESUS).... I WAS before Abraham. Not "The divine nature of me but not the human nature."


John 17:5, And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. Jesus says "that I - JESUS - I had." NOT, "that just my divine nature but not human nature had"


Hebrews 1:1-3 and 10-12, Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,.... And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Note, God created the world through Jesus; Jesus is the "imprint" of God's nature, Jesus upholds the universe, Jesus made purifcation for sins, Jesus is the same.... NO distinction of natures, NO "The Son did this, the Flesh did that..."


Matthew 18:20, For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Again, note that JESUS is among us, not "The Second Person of the Trinity but not me." Jesus is the God/Man - both/and.


Romans 9:5. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. Note: JESUS is over all.


Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. JESUS is eternal....


John 21:17, Lord, you (Jesus) know everything. JESUS is all-knowing


John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Note: NO FLESH can walk through walls and doors.... GOD of course can. JESUS (the God/Man did), indicating that what Jesus can do by one nature also involves his other nature. This seems important for the Reformed insistence that Jesus' human nature is in heaven and CANNOT thus be here for this would violate the properties of his human nature. Well..... this violated the properties of his human nature.


Matthew 1:23, They shall call his name Immanuel which means God with us. Note: JESUS' very title here means "God WITH us." Yes, GOD can be in all places at all times, no one disputes that. But Jesus says HE - JESUS - who is also HUMAN is with us. Thus, as in above, properties of one nature can "communicate" or in some way involve the other, since Nicea stressed his two natures are INSEPARABLE.


Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered together, there I am among them. JESUS is omnipresent


Colossians 2:3 Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge


Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (JESUS)


Titus 2:13, "Our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us" JESUS is God. And He - God - gave himself for us on the Cross.


John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth (all referring to JESUS)




.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Because you specifically asked why I shared (in passing) that Jesus had to be both God and Man to be our Savior. You ignored every Scripture and all the points I made to ask about that personal opinion. I responded. You didn't reply to my response. And of course, this thread is not about WHY Jesus is both God and man but rather WHETHER Jesus is both divine and human - the point I addressed with a great, great many Scriptures all indicating such.





Yes, I think that death was critical to the issue of justification. But this thread is not about WHETHER Jesus died on the Cross (perhaps for no reason except JEsus thought it might be fun) it's about WHETHER Jesus is both God and man - inseparately, always. I offered a great, great many Scriptures that indicate that but you might not have noticed.





Yes, Jesus is submissive to the will of the First Person. But that has NOTHING to do with His not also being God. A Marine private is submissive to the Marine general - but the private is no less human than the general. You are confusing issues.





IF (you missed that word - I put it all in caps for emphasis but you missed it).... IF you (a mere human) can be perfect then I see your point (Jesus could be just like you - and not also divine) but then there would be no need for a Savior IF you can do all that is necessary for salvation.





I agree. Jesus could be what the Bible says: BOTH God and man. BOTH. Fully. Always. And yes, IMO, this is critical to His ministry as Savior (otherwise, any human could do what He did - if divinity is not essential).






Wrong. Jesus wasn't "AS" God, He IS God. See the long, long list of a great many Scriptures I gave that state that. You might want to look up Docetism, historically and ecumenically denounced as heresy and clearly unbiblical.






Wrong. It's not only unbiblical and heretical, it destroys Christianity because it eliminates Jesus as the Savior.



The Biblical, historical, ecumenical, Christian, simple, understandable answer: Jesus is both fully God and man - together but not blended, inseparable. As the Scriptures I listed for you teach. And as the church has proclaimed for over 1700 years - universally, ecumenically.




Pax



- Josiah

Yeah I noticed the scripture you posted and still have questions because the great many verses you posted out of context only seem to verify your opinion to you.

So basically you're telling me that Jesus must have always been eternally the utter fullness of GOD, and had to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself for the salvation of man because that's what tradition says? You realize tradition is made by man right?

It is becoming apparent that this conversation with you is pointless.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

the great many verses you posted only seem to verify your opinion.

Yup.


Nothing to confirm as truth the ancient, condemned heresies of Docetism, Adoptionism or Arianism. Nothing to support that Jesus isn't the Savior but just a teacher to SHOW us how to save ourselves.

So basically you're telling me that Jesus must have always been eternally the utter fullness of GOD

That's what the Bible says (although you added the "must" - don't know why). Scripture teaches that and the whole church has proclaimed and defended that for over 1700 years. That's what some horrible, universally condemned heresies deny (or at least place into question).




See post #125.
Look up the horrible heresies of Docetism, Adoptionism and Arianism.




Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Yup.


Nothing to confirm as truth the ancient, condemned heresies of Docetism, Adoptionism or Arianism. Nothing to support that Jesus isn't the Savior but just a teacher to SHOW us how to save ourselves.






That's what the Bible says (although you added the "must" - don't know why). Scripture teaches that and the whole church has proclaimed and defended that for over 1700 years. That's what some horrible, universally condemned heresies deny (or at least place into question).




See post #125.
Look up the horrible heresies of Docetism, Adoptionism and Arianism.




Pax


- Josiah





.

Look. I'm here to learn what is true. Not to be passive aggressively accused of blasphemy and heresy.

It's really obvious you have no desire to help me or any other for that matter.

Regardless of the fact that what you repeatedly say has little ground in scripture or logic, you keep rattling it off as if the truth because of....tradition...really?

Have you ever read what is said of tradition in scripture?

I tried to be fair and not smear you for your faults though they are blatantly obvious to me. I explained again how I didn't understand your logic or the lack there of and asked for further clarification. I attempted to remind you that though our beliefs may differ, we are brothers who should at least attempt to help one another. I asked you why you won't respond to my questions instead of simply repeating them. All I have gotten in return is post after post of you insinuating that I am not a Christian and that I am a heretic.

So know this; fear mongering may have worked on others for 1700 years, but I fear no thing whatsoever but GOD. So continue to avoid the subject and accuse me of lies if it comforts you. Know your comfort is but temporary. Open your eyes you blind fool. Know you not that the only unforgiven sin is that of knowingly turning others from the truth of GOD?

Could you be so kind as to explain why Arius and Arianism are considered hereircal? This question isn't for you to repeat or for you to parrat off some predetermined response devised by another person or group of people.

Use your own words since you are right on all topics at all times.

Oh yeah, you still haven't answered why GOD would kill GOD to appease GOD, or how that makes any sense whatsoever, or how it equates to the salvation of all.

And please stop acting like I'm equating the anointed one with your average Joe, because I'm not.

I really was going to drop it, but you had to let your pride get the best of you again and accuse me of nonsense.

When I say you are deceived it is observable. When you say I'm a heretic it is nonsense; I haven't veered from scripture in any way. If I had, surely you would have made it clear, being rightly guided and all.

I don't actually expect you to honestly answer anything I have posed. It would be a pleasant surprise if you did in any meaningful form, but I won't hold my breath, sorry.

Again, I am done talking to you.

I humbly ask that you not falsely accuse me of crimes against GOD. It would behoove you to not do so, anyway. Regardless of your response; I am done, really.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I started this thread to not derail The Holy Trinity thread.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man at the same time. That seems like a mathematical impossibility but with God anything is possible. Let's discuss.

I am truly sorry for bringing such heedless contention to this thread. I know our views differ to some extent, but please know that it was not my intention to bring this mess about.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

It's really obvious you have no desire to help me or any other for that matter.

I have no clue that you wanted help, only that you seemed to disagree with the opening post, the great many Scriptures noted in post 125, and with the historic, ecumenical position.... in stead of that, in lieu of that, in place of that, you have alluded to several historically denounced positions (which are called "heresies") such as docetism, adoptionism, arianism, etc. - none of which I supported.

Regardless of the fact that what you repeatedly say has little ground in scripture or logic, you keep rattling it off as if the truth because of....tradition...really?

I have never once - remotely - posted that something is "true because of tradition." Discussion works so very much better if you QUOTE the words you are replying to and then reply to the WORDS in the quote. And I never so much as even MENTIONED the word "logic" (because I could care less about that). What I did was quote Scripture. A great many Scriptures. All ignored. See post 125. AND - yes - I noted that the whole church, together, ecumenically, historically, for centuries AGREED WITH SCRIPTURE (among them, ones you've ignored) against heresies such as Docetism, Arianism, Adoptionism, etc. (which you've repeatedly alluded to).

we are brothers who should at least attempt to help one another

Glad to. See post 125.

you blind fool

Ok. And here you stressed how extremely nice you are, how you never accuse or flame or defame anyone, how you just want to learn.... Hum.

Could you be so kind as to explain why Arius and Arianism are considered hereircal?

AGAIN, as I've posted to you a few times now, I use that term in the offical, formal sense: Historically, we - the church - ecumenically, together, in full agreement, DECLARED it to be heresy - it's a historical, ecumenical declaration. I do not use it in some subjective, individual statement of my opinion. It IS one of the "heresies" that Christianity has - together, historically, ecumenically - condemned.


If you want to defend the heresy of Arianism, start a thread on that. Do you agree with Arianism? Docetism? Adoptionism?


See post 125 for relevant Scriptures.


See (if you dare) -

http://carm.org/arianism-and-its-influence-today

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...t-are-the-biblical-arguments-against-arianism

http://www.gotquestions.org/arianism.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTNyeCY9z1g




- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

Likes Lämmchen liked this post

.... I think it too will be completely ignored.



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

Genesis 1:1 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Colossians 1:15-17 ESV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Isaiah 44:24 KJV Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

[Pedrito]

... Continued


From Lämmchen's Post #4 on Page 1:

Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8 (capitals added by translators, I understand):

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Two questions sensibly arise here:
1. When was all power given to Jesus? I.e. when did He become almighty?
2. What does alpha and omega ("Alpha and Omega") actually signify in that particular context?

Answer 1 – After Jesus was resurrected. (Matthew 28:18)

Answer 2 – Answer coming in a later post.


And it is probably a good time to emphasise that these posts of mine are not in any way designed to contain, and therefore should not be construed as, a personal attack on Lämmchen or on anyone else employing the references she has offered (or related references).

The aim of these posts is simply to demonstrate that the scriptures offered (those reviewed so far) do not support the proposition stated in the heading of this thread. (Unless and until the required meaning is read into them.)

That is not to say that inspired statements supporting the proposition do not exist. It's just that we haven't seen any yet in the post under progressive review.


Continued ...

 

[Josiah]

Revelation 1:8:

Two questions sensibly arise here:
1. When was all power given to Jesus? I.e. when did He become almighty?

God doesn't need anyone/anything to GIVE Him what is His.

I reject Adoptionism.

2. What does alpha and omega ("Alpha and Omega") actually signify in that particular context?

Answer 1 – After Jesus was resurrected. (Matthew 28:18)

Answer 2 – Answer coming in a later post.

Jesus is eternal.



See posts 4 and 91.



- Josiah


.

 

[Lamb]

Two questions sensibly arise here:
1. When was all power given to Jesus? I.e. when did He become almighty?
2. What does alpha and omega ("Alpha and Omega") actually signify in that particular context?

Scripture has already been given to you to show that Jesus is God. He has always been. Which for your question number one...the answer is there is no time that Jesus was not Almighty. He is God.

Number two means he is eternal as Josiah pointed out to you.

 

[Alithis]

Scripture has already been given to you to show that Jesus is God. He has always been. Which for your question number one...the answer is there is no time that Jesus was not Almighty. He is God.

Number two means he is eternal as Josiah pointed out to you.

That in no way adresses the question.
When was all authority given to Jesus..
..as far as i lnow he declares it..after his resurection.. And never before

 

[Alithis]

God doesn't need anyone/anything to GIVE Him what is His.

I reject Adoptionism.
Jesus is eternal.

<snip>

And yet the lord jesus..contradicts you?
No of course not.
YOU contradict him
For he says ..." All authority is "given" me ....."

Interesting isnt it...

 

[Lamb]

That in no way adresses the question.
When was all authority given to Jesus..
..as far as i lnow he declares it..after his resurection.. And never before

When was Jesus not God?

 

[Alithis]

When was Jesus not God?

this also does not adress the question.

And the answer is simple.. When he "put off" his divinity and became man.

I have often wondered in regard to this question and when this thread started i still wondered. Itmade methink.. Why do we traditionally say he was 100% both AT THE SAME TIME !? When the scripture does not... Its not a sin to ask " is tradition right merely because ithas existed so long? Can it be right when scripture states otherwise ?

In my ownheart the jury is still out onthis question.. But in all honesty,the vote is leaning infavor of tradition being erroneous when balanced against the word ofGod.

You seem to take it personally but shouldnt. We are to study the scriptures to see if these things are so.. And in this case..scripture is beginnig to show me...
- this thing may not be so...
But it takes some harsh objectivity to truley consider it .
our love of tradtion (which can exceed our love of God to the point of idolatry) is a powerful beast to overcome.

 

[Alithis]

[MENTION=142]Pedrito[/MENTION] (please note my former post)

The post #1
Invited... "Lets discuss"
But the thread went to do anything but discuss. for the most part.
I just scrolled through it at a heafty ,what?8 to 10 pages maybe could be deleted without theslightesst interuption of the topic.

So... Lets engage.

But i must once again clarify this one distinction.
The words.... " at the same time ".....!
Was the lord Jesus 100% man and 100%God.... -At the same time. ?

If you will,feel free to browse pages. (I think)3,4,5 where i give two posts asking fair and obvious questions ,to further gauge where im coming from .

I note that John ch 1 ..specifically vs 1 ,has been repetedly presented to say he is both at the same time.

Its a favorite memory text of mine that the word of god-is god- but i note when the text is repeated as a chapter ..no bold text nor underscore is ever given to the words,"And the word became flesh."
This is interesting tome because it shows that one ... Becomes somthing else that it was not ... (Being Flesh) And as thatflesh...is no longer what it was -(being God) one was put off that it might be ..the other.

I have no problem embracing Jesus as the salvation of god come to us in the flesh nor as the living manifestationof God . did jesus (yeshua..means salvation/saviour )come in the flesh?YES.
As flesh was he God "at the same time?

Here... The discussion goes on......