Ever Virgin

[George]

Yes I know we've done a ton of Mary threads, but I wanted to discuss this since I've been thinking about it. I know this is a hair splitting discussion between many Christians, so wanted to gather opinions.

Orthodoxy says Mary was Ever Virgin which is what I believe.

 

[Alithis]

Yes I know we've done a ton of Mary threads, but I wanted to discuss this since I've been thinking about it. I know this is a hair splitting discussion between many Christians, so wanted to gather opinions.

Orthodoxy says Mary was Ever Virgin which is what I believe.

what scripture do you base it on .

 

[psalms 91]

I am curious also as have never even seen a hint at that in the bible

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is the answer

 

[psalms 91]

Tradition means nothing if it is not backed up in scripture

 

[visionary]

All good Jewish wives believed it was their duty to be the "helpmeet" of their husband. Having "children" was a blessing, part of the fulfillment of a "quiver full". Think of how many stories in the bible are about women who are having difficulty having children and how important it was to them. Mary had four other sons, Joseph, James, Jude, and Simon. Some think that they really belonged to Joseph and not Mary. Here are some passages where the other sons of Mary by Joseph are mentioned (Matt. 12:46; 13:55; Mark 6:3; John 2:12; 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5; Gal. 1:19).

Mary was never called to be a virgin forever. She got married. Joseph chose to abstain from " knowing" his wife until after Yeshua was born.

Matt 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). 24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

This term "know" or "knew" is often used in the biblical sense of sexual intimacy. "Now Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived." I believe it from the clear words of Yeshua on marriage being the place for two people to become "one flesh" only found through intimacy.

 

[psalms 91]

very good Visionary

 

[George]

If Mary had other children, then why did John the Beloved Disciple take Mary at the cross? Surely her Son would entrust the care of His Mother to another one of her children.

 

[visionary]

The answer is found in John 7. In verse 5 we read “For even His brothers did not believe in Him.” The gospels make it clear that Yeshua’s siblings did not believe in Him until after the resurrection. We know that Yeshua appeared to James, for 1 Corinthians 15:7 says “After that He was seen by James.” It is probable that this event is what finally inspired James to believe in His brother is the Son of God. Yeshua was just making sure that Mary was being cared for by a believer.

At the time Yeshua hung on the cross, His siblings did not believe in Him. It stands to reason, then, that He would ask one of His followers to care for His mother. He selected John, his closest friend who is consistently referred to as “the disciple Jesus loved,” to take on this responsibility. We can assume that if James had believed in Yeshua at this time, and as at the foot of the cross beside his mother, he would have received this responsibility.

 

[George]

But the Greek for brother which is Adelphos is used by Paul to address the masses in the Epistles. And certainly I would think that if the supposed brothers were from Mary, that the Gospel would have said so by saying Mary then bore other children. Otherwise you can say that these children were from Joseph.

 

[Alithis]

If Mary had other children, then why did John the Beloved Disciple take Mary at the cross? Surely her Son would entrust the care of His Mother to another one of her children.

Ok thats happened. But it is as easily read as... This son is taken from you take john to fill the space .. Not saying thas exactly what is meant. But to the point.. It in absolutley no way cancels out the blatantly obvious existance of her other children.

So as i asked before.. What scripture do you base this pepetual virginity on .
?

add: note i have asked "what scripture do you base this on .. NOT what tradition.

 

[visionary]

When Yeshua died, James His brother took over the new found branch of Judaism.

 

[psalms 91]

True, very true

 

[Josiah]

Yes I know we've done a ton of Mary threads, but I wanted to discuss this since I've been thinking about it. I know this is a hair splitting discussion between many Christians, so wanted to gather opinions.

Orthodoxy says Mary was Ever Virgin which is what I believe.

I was banned from CF for awhile because I held that DOGMATICALLY, SCRIPTURALLY, we can't be certain one way or the other...... because I defended the view that while it's certainly POSSIBLE (and strong Tradition points to it), it's simply not supported by Scripture (or very early Tradition). This "neutral" position offended the Catholics and a couple of Orthodox SO much that they got me banned (for a bit).


I have NO PROBLEM at all with those who affirm the PVM (which includes Luther and many Lutherans) - ONLY proclaiming such as DOGMA.




.

 

[psalms 91]

My problem with it is that it elevated Mary and basically makes her an object of worship.

 

[tango]

Yes I know we've done a ton of Mary threads, but I wanted to discuss this since I've been thinking about it. I know this is a hair splitting discussion between many Christians, so wanted to gather opinions.

Orthodoxy says Mary was Ever Virgin which is what I believe.

If Mary had any other children then either they were all born by the power of the Holy Spirit or Mary didn't remain a virgin. If she remained a virgin it would mean she and Joseph never consummated their marriage, which would seem improbable (although admittedly not impossible).

Jesus being born to a virgin was necessary if he were to fulfill Is 7:14 (although some translations refer to a young woman conceiving, which isn't anything like as noteworthy as a virgin conceiving). I honestly don't see any reason why Mary needed to remain a virgin after Jesus was born and after she and Joseph were married.

Is there a specific basis for believing that Mary remained a virgin, or indeed for even desiring that she remained a virgin, after she was married?

 

[Rens]

It's quite clear. Visionary already quoted the text.
he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son.
In Dutch it's: he had no intercourse with her before she had given birth to a son.
So if he never had it's a weird sentence. That was one of the basic obligations of a marriage.

 

[Lamb]

I lean not to either side on this. I just do not know and it doesn't make my religion stronger.

I looked up about "until" many years ago and from this site, these are the types of things I found in the past and the reason I cannot lean to one side or the other:


2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)

1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)

1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.")

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity

 

[Alithis]

It's quite clear. Visionary already quoted the text.
he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son.
In Dutch it's: he had no intercourse with her before she had given birth to a son.
So if he never had it's a weird sentence. That was one of the basic obligations of a marriage.

i wish i read dutch haha .
the old English ..he never knew her .. is just an attempt to translate it in the most polite way for the time and day .. but we all know it means he was not sexually intimate with her .. he didn't , as your dutch version nice and plainly states "have intercourse " before she gave birth to the lord Jesus .. after that they went on to be husband and wife and he had intercourse with her ,as is the normal course of any marriage and they went o to have children - as the scripture plainly states .. also part of the blessing of god .. for he did bless her and to course her to be barren of any more children would have been considered a curse . so even the suggestion that she did not have more children is to utterly contradict that she was blessed by god . as all who are blessed are fruitful .. not barren .

it is so obvious that in order to prop up this traditional lie that Mary remained a virgin we have to extract the scripture out of the bible attempt to explain them away in order to superimpose the tradition over the scriptures .. any time you need to run through all those hoops it is a clear sign -your lying .

as for [MENTION=33]George[/MENTION] .. i have asked what scripture do you base this tradition on ? i have not asked what scripture do you ignore remove and dissect ... but what scriptures establish it to be so ?

i will answer - there are none - ZIP ZERO NADA .
and not only are there none ..in EVERY true doctrine the scripture gives two or three witnesses as the minimum to establish and doctrine of truth . that is to say if it is a doctrine in the NT you will find the basis of it in the OT . never do you find any doctrine of truth in one place alone ..
but in THIS CASE .. there are NONE .

the doctrine of Mary being a perpetual virgin is NOT scriptural ..it is a lie .

i'm not sure why folks are so shy to just say so . do we offend people with the truth .. sometimes yes .. the lord Jesus was found by some to be so offensive they got mad and nailed him to a cross . yet the love of god demanded he speak only truth .. beautiful to the heart that loves truth ..offensive to the heart that hates truth .

 

[psalms 91]

i wish i read dutch haha .
the old English ..he never knew her .. is just an attempt to translate it in the most polite way for the time and day .. but we all know it means he was not sexually intimate with her .. he didn't , as your dutch version nice and plainly states "have intercourse " before she gave birth to the lord Jesus .. after that they went on to be husband and wife and he had intercourse with her ,as is the normal course of any marriage and they went o to have children - as the scripture plainly states .. also part of the blessing of god .. for he did bless her and to course her to be barren of any more children would have been considered a curse . so even the suggestion that she did not have more children is to utterly contradict that she was blessed by god . as all who are blessed are fruitful .. not barren .

it is so obvious that in order to prop up this traditional lie that Mary remained a virgin we have to extract the scripture out of the bible attempt to explain them away in order to superimpose the tradition over the scriptures .. any time you need to run through all those hoops it is a clear sign -your lying .

as for [MENTION=33]George[/MENTION] .. i have asked what scripture do you base this tradition on ? i have not asked what scripture do you ignore remove and dissect ... but what scriptures establish it to be so ?

i will answer - there are none - ZIP ZERO NADA .
and not only are there none ..in EVERY true doctrine the scripture gives two or three witnesses as the minimum to establish and doctrine of truth . that is to say if it is a doctrine in the NT you will find the basis of it in the OT . never do you find any doctrine of truth in one place alone ..
but in THIS CASE .. there are NONE .

the doctrine of Mary being a perpetual virgin is NOT scriptural ..it is a lie .

i'm not sure why folks are so shy to just say so . do we offend people with the truth .. sometimes yes .. the lord Jesus was found by some to be so offensive they got mad and nailed him to a cross . yet the love of god demanded he speak only truth .. beautiful to the heart that loves truth ..offensive to the heart that hates truth .

Yup