Seeking perfection.

[Alithis]

Yes? So he gave examples. He did not state he was finished being chief of sinners did he?

and then he went on to preach absolutely against continuing in sin .. .. nope when he was lifted into the heavens and shown the mystries of Chrsit to make known unto us .. he was not in the practice of sin.
so i will ask the same question i do of any one else .. what sin was paul speaking of .. ? what are folkls accusing him of ..
as morecoffee has pointed out .. he was speaking about how he went about murdering christians in his zeal for god making him ,in his own yes after the truth was revealed to him ,the greatest of all sinners.. and then - HE GOT SAVED and repented of going about murdering christians. he did do that any more he ceased from it .

so what was the other sins he carried on doing / did he go about lieing? ,stealing?, bowing to statues ? shacking up with random woman ? laying with other mens wives ? did he covet by forsaking everything for the gospel ? etc
and what part of his life and ministry did he practice these things after he was born again of the Spirit of God ... .. yes - the notion is more then ridiculous.
the context refers to a past state of being displaying how great gods mercy is in even saving such a person as he who once murdered the disciples ....


refer...(nlt)

Timothy, you are like a son to me in the things of the Lord. May God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord show you his kindness and mercy and give you great peace of heart and mind.

As I said when I left for Macedonia, please stay there in Ephesus and try to stop the men who are teaching such wrong doctrine. Put an end to their myths and fables, and their idea of being saved by finding favor with an endless chain of angels leading up to God—wild ideas that stir up questions and arguments instead of helping people accept God’s plan of faith. What I am eager for is that all the Christians there will be filled with love that comes from pure hearts, and that their minds will be clean and their faith strong.

But these teachers have missed this whole idea and spend their time arguing and talking foolishness. They want to become famous as teachers of the laws of Moses when they haven’t the slightest idea what those laws really show us. Those laws are good when used as God intended. But they were not made for us, whom God has saved; they are for sinners who hate God, have rebellious hearts, curse and swear, attack their fathers and mothers, and murder. Yes, these laws are made to identify as sinners all who are immoral and impure: homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, and all others who do things that contradict the glorious Good News of our blessed God, whose messenger I am.

How thankful I am to Christ Jesus our Lord for choosing me as one of his messengers, and giving me the strength to be faithful to him, even though I used to scoff at the name of Christ. I hunted down his people, harming them in every way I could. But God had mercy on me because I didn’t know what I was doing, for I didn’t know Christ at that time. Oh, how kind our Lord was, for he showed me how to trust him and become full of the love of Christ Jesus.

*** How true it is, and how I long that everyone should know it, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—and I was the greatest of them all. But God had mercy on me so that Christ Jesus could use me as an example to show everyone how patient he is with even the worst sinners, so that others will realize that they, too, can have everlasting life. Glory and honor to God forever and ever. He is the King of the ages, the unseen one who never dies; he alone is God, and full of wisdom. Amen.

Now, Timothy, my son, here is my command to you: Fight well in the Lord’s battles, just as the Lord told us through his prophets that you would. Cling tightly to your faith in Christ and always keep your conscience clear, doing what you know is right. For some people have disobeyed their consciences and have deliberately done what they knew was wrong. It isn’t surprising that soon they lost their faith in Christ after defying God like that. Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples of this. I had to give them over to Satan to punish them until they could learn not to bring shame to the name of Christ.

 

[Lamb]

We are all guilty of continuing in failing to achieve to perfectly obey the first commandment. All of us. If anyone here claims otherwise, he's a liar.

 

[psalms 91]

IIagree

 

[MoreCoffee]

We are all guilty of continuing in failing to achieve to perfectly obey the first commandment. All of us. If anyone here claims otherwise, he's a liar.

Yet God said of Job "Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil." And Enoch pleased God.

 

[Alithis]

We are all guilty of continuing in failing to achieve to perfectly obey the first commandment. All of us. If anyone here claims otherwise, he's a liar.

is Christ imperfect then ?
come now ,you asked elsewhere if a beleive ALL the scripture ..I DO .. even the bits that are not favored .

is it i who live ? or christ who lives in me ? so how is it you imply he is imperfect?

do you not so often say he has done for us what we cannot do ourselves ? if he has done it .. and he has . then we are to live IN what he has done .
we cannot achieve what he has already achieved for us .but uf we do not take that which he has achieved and live in it -the we simply reject what he has achieved for us .

sorry but you can have it both ways , not now not ever .
you either learn to lay down your old life and live in the perfect nature of christ JESUS ..
or
you crucify him again and live in the nature of the flesh .

NEVER are we told by God in his word to take on the nature of christ while remaining in the nature of the flesh.

if you are calling yourself saved .. and then denying his power to save you .. and continuing unrepentantly in the practice of sin ..then you(referring to anyone )are not his disciple.
you have a form of godliness but you are denying the power thereof by saying .. he cannot cause you to cease from sin .

let me define "continuing in the practice of sin " ... we are not speaking of when a beleiver makes a mistake ... when john says 'a person born of God cannot continue to sin ".. he is not lieing ..he is speaking about a continued repetitive action.
to be simple .. we all know and agree that to STEAL ...is a sin so if you steal something and then you say sorry god please forgive me ... and then you steal again.. then a week later you steal again.. then a month later you steal again ..then a day later you steal again.. then three months later you steal again...
it does not mater how many times you say sorry ..your actions display that you have not yet REPENTED OF STEALING .. because you keep doing it . John says .. if you are born of god you CANNOT continue to do it ... because he makes you a new creation with RENEWED HEART and he writes his perfect law on your heart . so you don't even need to know that law because you dont go about breaking it you live inside the bounds of it because you love the lord with all your heart ..you desire to do what is right MORE then you desire that which is evil.. you desire to ShUN evil -because that is what the new creation does .. the new creature in christ is inhabited with the very Holy Spirit OF CHRIST himself ,, and thus does not desire evil over good,but good over evil and so the person cannot continue to repeatedly practice sin ... that is what is simply written .

so if you are in the repeated practice of sin.. you have not yet been saved from your sin-this is made evident from its dominion and control over you ,nor the death it brings upon you . for you have not yet obeyed the message of the good news of JESUS CHRIST which commands you to REPENT , be baptised for the remission sin that you may recive the eternal life of the holy Spirit who then gives yoiu the POWER to over come .

for God does not allow you to be tempted above what you are able to resist ... -this TOO is the word of God .

so if we cannot be tempted above what we can resist .then why is it your saying that we cannot resist sin ? whom are we to beleive .. those that say.."you cant stop sinning " or the word of god that says you cant be tempted above your ability to resist ? - we MUST beleive the word of god and that he is able to , and does, empower us to now do what we could not do before without his nature in us .

this is why JESUS said .. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN . every argument in the defense of ongoing sin refers to a person who is not yet a new creation in Chrsit jesus . a person who is not born again of water and of Spirit . every argument in the defense of ongoing sin opposes the good news of JESUS who came to destroy the works of the devil and save us from our sin.
not leave us enslaved to them.

 

[Lamb]

Of course I believe Christ is perfect and He covers me in His righteousness.

I'm asking you this as a legitimate question. Do you believe you perfectly obey the first commandment?

 

[Alithis]

Of course I believe Christ is perfect and He covers me in His righteousness.

I'm asking you this as a legitimate question. Do you believe you perfectly obey the first commandment?

Christ perfected once for all them that believe in him....
We dont have to keep the first commanment.we ,in christ have become the fulfillment of it.

And so we dont continue in sin ..because we continue in rightousness.
Cant go two directions at the same time.
Whats better..we dont have to.
We can rest in christ.
And being made new in christ we work the rihtousness of god instead of the wickedness of the flesh.

Its good news.. The lord jesus became sin so that we can be the rightousness of God.
He did not become sin so we can remain sinners ..
Get excited.. He set us free so that we can actually BE Free..!

Its time to believe in him.

 

[Josiah]

And so we dont continue in sin ..

Who is "WE?"

We're STILL waiting for that list of just 10 living Christians who don't sin, who never "miss the mark," who never "fall short" of all God commands, who are no longer imperfect in their being, nature, thoughts, words and deeds but are absolutely perfect just as and to the same extent that God is perfect, 24/7, and who thus don't need mercy or forgiveness or Christ or the Cross or salvation or justification because they are perfect, they have nothing to be saved from, nothing to be forgiveness, no need for Jesus (or God for that matter). Please list the full names of just ten such people.

And you might start with you. Could you have your wife post that you are SINLESS, always "hit the mark" and never, ever "miss the mark"? That you are PERFECT just as and to the same extent that God is perfect? That you NEVER, EVER think or say or do ANYTHING other than the perfect, loving, righteous will of God, NEVER has she EVER needed to forgive you because you never have anything to forgive? Start with you if you can't think of anyone else who qualifies as "we".

Why is Scripture wrong when it declares that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one?" "If anyone claims to be without sin, he lies and deceives himself?" Why was Paul wrong when he wrote that he IS the "CHIEF of sinners?" (or are you claiming that Paul was not a Christian.... or that no one is a Christian)?






.

 

[TurtleHare]

Who is "WE?"

We're STILL waiting for that list of just 10 living Christians who don't sin, who never "miss the mark," who never "fall short" of all God commands, who are no longer imperfect in their being, nature, thoughts, words and deeds but are absolutely perfect just as and to the same extent that God is perfect, 24/7, and who thus don't need mercy or forgiveness or Christ or the Cross or salvation or justification because they are perfect, they have nothing to be saved from, nothing to be forgiveness, no need for Jesus (or God for that matter). Please list the full names of just ten such people.

And you might start with you. Could you have your wife post that you are SINLESS, always "hit the mark" and never, ever "miss the mark"? That you are PERFECT just as and to the same extent that God is perfect? That you NEVER, EVER think or say or do ANYTHING other than the perfect, loving, righteous will of God, NEVER has she EVER needed to forgive you because you never have anything to forgive? Start with you if you can't think of anyone else who qualifies as "we".

Why is Scripture wrong when it declares that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one?" "If anyone claims to be without sin, he lies and deceives himself?" Why was Paul wrong when he wrote that he IS the "CHIEF of sinners?" (or are you claiming that Paul was not a Christian.... or that no one is a Christian)?






.

I like this plan of yours and can't wait to hear from his wife because you know a spouse knows the other better than himself and that's a fact. My spouse sees my flaws even though he might not point them all out to me and I'm sure that the wife of Alithis would see his flaws even if she would prefer to not share any of those bad things he does , even if they're not downright horrible enough to divorce him. Perfect in Christ, indeed we are but looking at us as the individuals that we are on earth living here and making mistakes we can see we are by far those perfect beings.

 

[psalms 91]

We all need forgiveness

 

[visionary]

First off.. the perfection is not in the obedience to the letter of the law... it is in Yeshua.

“….Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world? And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as you, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world has not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that you have sent me. And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith you have loved me may be in them, and I in them. AMEN”

After that.. obedience to the law perfectly is through Him in us.

 

[visionary]

No one can agree on what a "holy life", "sinless life" should look like. So they start throwing around things like "personal conviction". Where in the world in Scripture is the term “personal conviction”? It's just another way to package up relativism. Relativism is like this when people say “What works for you is great, it must be a conviction from God for you, but don't try to make me adhere to it for God might/will/ did convict me of something different.”

But the truth of the matter is that The Word of God is the clear cut Way, Yeshua kept it perfectly, and if you don’t, you will go astray. You can show the works of the Law of God is written in your heart, and that your conscience can bear witness to this by not guilt but a peace that passes all understanding. Your conscience bears witness by your thoughts either convicting you of the thoughts, deeds or words are wrong or right. If you are serious about your relationship with God then you will lay your heart before God and be very conscientious of how you live in His sight knowing nothing is hid from Him.

 

[visionary]

. You are one of God's fellow workers. You are God's field, His temple. According to the grace of God a foundation has been laid. Be careful in choosing the right construction material. Make sure it is God’s. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which has already been laid, which is and is in Yeshua. The Torah of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul.

The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart. The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether. And for many who prayed to God, knowing He exists but know not where to find Him, God understands.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life. It is the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden. And that is harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good.

To the words, "Keep the commandments," the young man answered, "Which?" He supposed that some ceremonial precept was meant, but Yeshua was speaking of the law given from Sinai. He mentioned several commandments from the second table of the Sacred Laws of God, and then summed them all up in the precept, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

The young man answered without hesitation, "All these things have I kept from my youth up; what lack I yet?" His conception of the law was external and superficial which is where many fail to understand even today. Judged by a human standard, he had preserved an unblemished character. To a great degree his outward life had been free from guilt; he verily thought that his obedience had been without a flaw. Yet he had a secret fear that all was not right between his soul and God. This prompted the question, "What lack I yet?"

"If thou wilt be perfect," Yeshua said, "go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come and follow Me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions."

The lover of self is a transgressor of the law. Yeshua, I am sure, desired to reveal to the young man the true motives of his behavior, and He gave him a test that would make manifest the selfishness of his heart. He showed him the plague spot in his character but the young man desired no further enlightenment. He had cherished an idol in the soul; the world and mammon was his god. He professed to have kept the commandments, but he was destitute of the principle which is the very spirit and life of them all. He did not possess true love for God or man. In his love of self and worldly gain he was out of harmony with the principles of heaven... Which was another way of saying he did not love his neighbor enough. Selfishness ruled in the heart.

So it is today, your outward behavior fools no one and especially not God. It is the plague of darkness that happened in Egypt and is happening today in spiritual Egypt and Sodom as it sweeps across the world. We are watching the world void the commandments of God to their own detriment. We are seeing it in our nation as the laws are changed to encompass every kind whether imagined or claimed.

 

[Rens]

Every sin is also not loving God 100%, pride or unbelief. Adam's sin was at least two. If he loved his wife he would have said: no! Don't do that! That's 3. Why count blessings if you can count sin? lol
Oh that was a response to page one. Didn't see it had gone to page 6. Should have counted the pages.

 

[Josiah]

LAW - you sin!
GOSPEL - you are forgiven!

We are ALWAYS both saint and sinner (at least this side of heaven)...... The Law reveals we sin, the Gospel shows we are forgiven. Eliminate either Law or Gospel (or just water them down to nothingness) and you are left with Pharisical Judaism or Bhakti Hinduism.

Yes, the LAW says we should PERFECTLY, ALWAYS not only seek perfection but BE perfect. And it means it.
Yes, the GOSPEL says that if we repent and believe, we ARE forgiven. And it means it.
Both are true.
All the time.

 

[Alithis]

LAW - you sin!
GOSPEL - you are forgiven!

We are ALWAYS both saint and sinner (at least this side of heaven)...... The Law reveals we sin, the Gospel shows we are forgiven. Eliminate either Law or Gospel (or just water them down to nothingness) and you are left with Pharisical Judaism or Bhakti Hinduism.

Yes, the LAW says we should PERFECTLY, ALWAYS not only seek perfection but BE perfect. And it means it.
Yes, the GOSPEL says that if we repent and believe, we ARE forgiven. And it means it.
Both are true.
All the time.

scriptural reference for this traditional teaching would be ....?

 

[Alithis]

Who is "WE?"

We're STILL waiting for that list of just 10 living Christians who don't sin, who never "miss the mark," who never "fall short" of all God commands, who are no longer imperfect in their being, nature, thoughts, words and deeds but are absolutely perfect just as and to the same extent that God is perfect, 24/7, and who thus don't need mercy or forgiveness or Christ or the Cross or salvation or justification because they are perfect, they have nothing to be saved from, nothing to be forgiveness, no need for Jesus (or God for that matter). Please list the full names of just ten such people.

And you might start with you. Could you have your wife post that you are SINLESS, always "hit the mark" and never, ever "miss the mark"? That you are PERFECT just as and to the same extent that God is perfect? That you NEVER, EVER think or say or do ANYTHING other than the perfect, loving, righteous will of God, NEVER has she EVER needed to forgive you because you never have anything to forgive? Start with you if you can't think of anyone else who qualifies as "we".

Why is Scripture wrong when it declares that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one?" "If anyone claims to be without sin, he lies and deceives himself?" Why was Paul wrong when he wrote that he IS the "CHIEF of sinners?" (or are you claiming that Paul was not a Christian.... or that no one is a Christian)?






.

who is this we ?.. is that a confession it does not include you ?
do you not know the difference between doing a one off act and -continuing in a repeated action .

scenario 1 - : Josiah hits his toy on the fridge once .. -mum says Josiah don't do that please ..stop it .. so Josiah,knows it is wrong and stops doing it .. he made an error bu now he knows he repents of doing it . end of issue .
you did a wrong .it was pointed out to you as a wrong and you stopped doing the wrong .

-as opposed to a repeated action-

scenario 2 : mum says , " Josiah stop hitting the fridge with your toy ".. but Josiah does it again .. and then again and every-time he passes the fridge he does it again .. knowing already it is wrong to do .. -THAT is a repeated action .. that is making a practice of sin.

the word of GOD ,, NOT ME ,says "any one born of god DOES NOT CONTINUE to sin... so why are you insisting on opposing the word of God . ?

no one has said that a person cant or wont muck up and sin.. but when the holy Spirit deals with them about it .. they STOP cease .. they don't rebel and continue to do it .


simple as that -you have so complicated such a simply simple thing .

 

[visionary]

Part of that transformation into His image is also into keep His sacred Laws perfectly like Him. For the Law of God is spiritual and comes from our Lord who is Spirit. You will not veil our faces because others can not stand to be in the presence of such glory. For you will be with those who also are glorious with His glory just like it is in you. Yeah that glorious stone tablet with His Sacred Commandments is written on your heart. You have joined in a sacred relationship with Him.

The commandment to honor one's human parents is compared to honoring God and a sacred obligation. As God says, “A son honors his father and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?" says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name.” But you ask, 'How have you shown contempt for your name?” Yeshua stands up for the sacred importance of honoring one's father and mother. Paul quotes the commandment in his letter to the church in Ephesus. In his letters to the Romans and Timothy, Paul describes disobedience to parents as a serious sin. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified. That is the power of the Holy Sacred Laws of God; they are spiritual and have the power to bring to light that which is done in the dark.

The Law when the Holy Spirit lights upon it, brings enlightenment to the mind, and if there is no rebellion of that mind against what the Law says, it will convict, convert, and transforms you into a person who obeys God’s Laws. Do you know the difference between working the law for justification, and living in the spirit and intent God intended the Law to be lived in our hearts, minds, thoughts, words and deeds? Letter obedience is when you do right up to the letter of the Law.

Spiritual obedience is when you go above and beyond the letter and do it in the spirit of love and in the intent which God wrote the Law of God. Love God and love your neighbors. As Yeshua said, “For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[Josiah]

we dont continue in sin ..

Who is the we?

who is this we ?.

Yes, that is the question for you.


Could you identify the "we?" The "we" who are sinless? Perhaps you could list their full names (I only asked for just 10 but so far you haven't been able to come up with even one - not one out of the 2.2 BILLION living persons who claim to be Christian.... well, you hinted their may be one - YOU - but when I asked if your wife could post that you never sin, well.....) Just give the names of 10 of these "we" who are sinless, who are perfect/holy/loving, 24/7, who need no forgiveness or mercy or Savior or God or Gospel because they don't sin. Just list the full names of just 10 just living persons. I'd like to meet them. Well, maybe not - because they would prove Scripture lies when it teaches that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one.... that if ANYONE claims to be sinless they are LIARS and deceive only themselves.

If I stop hitting a toy on the refrigerator, then I stop hitting my toy on the refrigerator - WHAT IN THE WORLD does that have to do with no longer sinning, with now always hitting the mark and never missing the mark, with doing all God commands, with being divinely PERFECT, with now being without need for forgiveness or mercy or the Gospel or the Christ or God because I don't sin? I still continue in sin as long as I'm sinful. The Bible says TO CHRISTIANS, "if anyone (seems rather inclusive.... and remember, this is written to CHRISTIANS) claims (present tense, for the NOW, concerning the NOW) to be sinless, he LIES and DECEIVES only himself (because his wife and the whole world knows he's lying - he is STILL a sinner). So if you ever do produce the names of any of these "WE" you mention, you'll of course just prove Scripture is wrong.





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