Can those called to serve forgive sins?

[ImaginaryDay2]

The warden is acting on the orders of the king, is he not and then he goes and follows through on what the King has ordained and not just announcing but giving out the freedom. It isn't the Warden's decision to do so but the Kings and it isn't the Warden's freedom being given but the King has made it so already so he's doling out what is already set in place to be handed out.

Right. So the Warden pronouncing "I give you freedom" is a lie. The King has given the freedom, hence "The King has freed you" would be correct.

 

[psalms 91]

Right. So the Warden pronouncing "I give you freedom" is a lie. The King has given the freedom, hence "The King has freed you" would be correct.

Yup, no pruiest or any man has the right to forgive sin, it is Gods

 

[TurtleHare]

Right. So the Warden pronouncing "I give you freedom" is a lie. The King has given the freedom, hence "The King has freed you" would be correct.

How about the warden saying what my pastor says in church, "In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

How about the warden saying what my pastor says in church, "In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

No. Because the Pastor does not have the authority. He can assure us of forgiveness/pardon, because Christ has declared it in his word (just as the warden can declare the pardon of the Judge), but he cannot extend what has not been given to him (previous mention of scripture in the thread aside. I don't come from an 'Apostolic Succession' perspective).

 

[psalms 91]

True

 

[MoreCoffee]

No. Because the Pastor does not have the authority. He can assure us of forgiveness/pardon, because Christ has declared it in his word (just as the warden can declare the pardon of the Judge), but he cannot extend what has not been given to him (previous mention of scripture in the thread aside. I don't come from an 'Apostolic Succession' perspective).

Yet for all the objections raised the passage in saint John's gospel says "If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained." No warden in a prison can choose to pardon or retain if theer is a Judges order to pardon but the ministers of Christ clearly can both forgive and retain sins.

 

[visionary]

Yet for all the objections raised the passage in saint John's gospel says "If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained." No warden in a prison can choose to pardon or retain if there is a Judges order to pardon but the ministers of Christ clearly can both forgive and retain sins.

In that case, it is the burden resting on the one who does or does not forgive, not on the sinner, who needs forgiveness. The sinner who needs forgiveness needs it from two places, the one offended, and God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In that case, it is the burden resting on the one who does or does not forgive, not on the sinner, who needs forgiveness. The sinner who needs forgiveness needs it from two places, the one offended, and God.

I do not know what you mean about burdens but it is clearly a grave matter for a minister of God to forgive or retain sins - one not to be lightly treated. Yet the holy scriptures say that it is the role of the minister to forgive or retain.

If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained.
(John 20:23)
'In truth I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
(Matthew 18:18)
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
(Matthew 16:19)

 

[Lamb]

No. Because the Pastor does not have the authority. He can assure us of forgiveness/pardon, because Christ has declared it in his word (just as the warden can declare the pardon of the Judge), but he cannot extend what has not been given to him (previous mention of scripture in the thread aside. I don't come from an 'Apostolic Succession' perspective).

The authority comes from Jesus--see post 48 that MoreCoffee has written and posted scripture. He gives that authority to the Church. The priests and pastors are the shepherds of the flock.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yet for all the objections raised the passage in saint John's gospel says "If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained." No warden in a prison can choose to pardon or retain if theer is a Judges order to pardon but the ministers of Christ clearly can both forgive and retain sins.

Okay, can you give me a modern example of where a minister of Christ has clearly "retained" a person's sin? If the (metaphorical) Judge has not forgiven an offense, then the (metaphorical) warden has the duty to follow that order. He does not, of himself, refuse the order.
Your point also assumes that the "forgive and retain" order is removed from the previous receiving of the Holy Spirit. In that case one "forgives or retains" of his own accord.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, can you give me a modern example of where a minister of Christ has clearly "retained" a person's sin? If the (metaphorical) Judge has not forgiven an offense, then the (metaphorical) warden has the duty to follow that order. He does not, of himself, refuse the order.
Your point also assumes that the "forgive and retain" order is removed from the previous receiving of the Holy Spirit. In that case one "forgives or retains" of his own accord.

Yes, any excommunication is a case of sins not absolved and thus retained.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes, any excommunication is a case of sins not absolved and thus retained.

Again, the Minister is only making a pronouncement of what has already been decided. He is not doing it of his own accord or judgement, but under the direction of the Judge.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Again, the Minister is only making a pronouncement of what has already been decided. He is not doing it of his own accord or judgement, but under the direction of the Judge.

Your take on the meaning of excommunication and the role of the minister is not what the passages of scripture that I posted say. look at them again. what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. it is not the other way around.

 

[psalms 91]

The authority comes from Jesus--see post 48 that MoreCoffee has written and posted scripture. He gives that authority to the Church. The priests and pastors are the shepherds of the flock.

All I can say is you confess to a man I will confess to Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

All I can say is you confess to a man I will confess to Jesus.

I can confess to anyone my sins. Jesus forgives me because of the cross and my pastor can also give me the forgiveness from the cross by the authority of Jesus. It's not the pastor giving me HIS forgiveness.

 

[Josiah]

Many times, WE are told to forgive sins. In His model prayer, Jesus teaches us to pray ".... forgive us our sins as WE FORGIVE....." This petition makes no sense if we cannot forgive sins.

But 2 things need to be said:

1. OUR forgiveness comes from US (not necessarily from God.... when I sin, I need to seek the forgiveness BOTH of the person AND God)

2. OUR forgiveness is only possible because of Jesus, THE Savior.... because of HIS mercy..... because of HIS life, death and resurrection.


Now, in terms of forgiveness from GOD, I believe that ALL may ANNOUNCE/APPLY God's forgiveness since God PROMISES to forgive us where there is repentance and faith (He MAY do so even if there is not, as in the Roman executioners at the foot of the Cross, but He PROMISES to do so where there is repentance and faith). Therefore, we may announce/apply GOD'S forgiveness where there is repentance and faith. It's not OUR forgiveness, it's the announcement of GOD'S forgiveness. But of course, such is conditional..... unlike God, we cannot KNOW if repentance and faith are present, all we can do is ACCEPT what the person professes, all we can do is ASSUME the person is being honest. Thus, our announcement is always, "UPON THIS CONFESSION...... I announce the mercy and forgiveness of God to you."



Pax Christi



- Josiah



.

Do you depend upon the priest's declaration, to believe God forgave?

Please re-read the last paragraph of what you quoted....

Now, in terms of forgiveness from GOD, I believe that ALL may ANNOUNCE/APPLY God's forgiveness since God PROMISES to forgive us where there is repentance and faith (He MAY do so even if there is not, as in the Roman executioners at the foot of the Cross, but He PROMISES to do so where there is repentance and faith). Therefore, we may announce/apply GOD'S forgiveness where there is repentance and faith. It's not OUR forgiveness, it's the announcement of GOD'S forgiveness. But of course, such is conditional..... unlike God, we cannot KNOW if repentance and faith are present, all we can do is ACCEPT what the person professes, all we can do is ASSUME the person is being honest. Thus, our announcement is always, "UPON THIS CONFESSION...... I announce the mercy and forgiveness of God to you."

Thank you!


Pax Christi


- Josiah





.

 

[Full O Beans]

When WE forgive, that comes from us. Yes, where there is repentance and faith, we are mandated to do that. I agree, GOD forgiving is a different matter (one not exclusively the issue of this thread).

Of course, such is not the same as GOD forgiving that person. However, where there is repentance and faith, God DOES so forgive (He promises it). Thus, it is appropriate for us to APPLY and ANNOUNCE God's forgiveness.... however, such would always be conditional since we (unlike God) cannot know if faith and repentance are present (WE can only "go" on what people say). Thus, while anyone can say, "in the name of God, I announce His forgiveness" however, it would be conditional, based on the person's CLAIM of repentance and faith. It would be best to add, "Upon your confession, I announce God's forgiveness of your sins."

You can "announce" all you like until the cows come home, but unless a person is repentant of one's sin and desires forgiveness from God through the sacrificial blood of Jesus---the cross, then nothing happens in the spiritual.

 

[Full O Beans]

I can confess to anyone my sins. Jesus forgives me because of the cross and my pastor can also give me the forgiveness from the cross by the authority of Jesus. It's not the pastor giving me HIS forgiveness.

No one can give you the forgiveness from the cross. That is just religion.

You go to the cross yourself and receive God's forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I can confess to anyone my sins. Jesus forgives me because of the cross and my pastor can also give me the forgiveness from the cross by the authority of Jesus. It's not the pastor giving me HIS forgiveness.

You've just stated that the Pastor can give you forgiveness, and that he can't, but I'll leave that alone for now. When a person states "In His (Jesus) stead, I forgive you your sins", that is the Pastor giving HIS OWN forgiveness. How is that hard?

*(Do you see what you've started George???!!! )

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

All I can say is you confess to a man I will confess to Jesus.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (Jas. 5:16).
King Jimmy always says that so well