Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

psalms 91

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The gift is free but what of after? Do you not believe Jesus who says those who love me will obey me. Or obedience is better than sacrifice.
 

TurtleHare

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The gift is free but what of after? Do you not believe Jesus who says those who love me will obey me. Or obedience is better than sacrifice.

You do realize that the quote Jesus used was from the Old Testament and it was referring to animal sacrifice right? Jesus' obedience is what was important the most and that's what we rely on because His obedience to the cross is our justification. After the free gift is your question and anything after the free gift isn't to earn anything but you know that right and do you agree or are you arguing that you need to earn something after you received your free gift?
 

psalms 91

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You can earn nothing but you can lose something if you are not following Jesus and living in sin
 

Lamb

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You can earn nothing but you can lose something if you are not following Jesus and living in sin

I agree that we can fall from faith.
 

Alithis

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You make justification purely a matter of LAW, purely a matter of YOU..... YOU just obey the instructions. So, Jesus has nothing to do with anything (His Cross, His Blood, His resurrection a meaningless, worthless joke since it ultimately ALL depends on YOU obeying the instructions.... you oppose the Gospel SO MUCH you've entirely eliminate itf).


Okay. The instructions are to be PERFECT exactly as and to the same extent that God in heaven is perfect. The instructions are to be HOLY exactly as and to the same extent that God in heaven is HOLY. The instructions are to LOVE all people living on the planet with the same love and to the same extent that Jesus loved us on the Cross. The instructions are to love the Lord with ALL (100%) your heart and soul and mind - all the time, every microsecond. The instructions are to make disciples of ALL people living on the planet. So, are you? Do you perform the instructions? How's it working for you? All your effort to make yourself so very, very BIG..... all your efforts to make Christ so very, very small? All your efforts to make everything about you and nothing about Christ, to make it all about the one you see in the mirror rather than the one hanging on the Cross?

What you are proclaiming is just the justification of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism (minus what little mercy those hold you - yours being PURE law) - with the word "Jesus" thrown in for no reason, you are simply TRYING to "Christianize" the justification theology of the Pharisees, of Islam, of Hinduism. But it's insulting to Christ, it undermines the very core and foundation of Christianity, and is an offense to the Gospel. No matter what the thread, you seem PASSIONATE to denounce the Gospel, belittle Christ (often to nothing at all), and glorify yourself and how perfect you are, making the Gospel unnecessary in the case of you yourself.

And you CONTINUE to show your complete confusion of Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God..... how you have so confused, entangled, mixed up these things with one purpose: to oppose Christ and engrandize yourself, to make the effectual point YOU and all YOU do (while lacking the humility to admit that YOU - in realize - do NOT obey, thus you condemn yourself by your own horrible theology).




Pax Christi



- Josiah




.
Boy you talk a load of waffle at times..
The instructions are usless without what the lord jesus has done FOR us. What he has done FOR us made the instructions possible.
You asked me where the words "obey the gospel" appeared side by side in the bible.so i showed you .you have since ignored it .
This shows you want your preferences more then truth.

Its the old adage..man hangs off cliff awaiting certain doom. God lets down a rope.. God does it we do not ,we cant take any credit .and he says "Grab the rope" BUT..you say..oh no god i cant grab the rope i cant obey your instruction to grab the rope..on no that would be saving myself..
I mean get real josiah.. Its a rediculous argument .grabbing the rope god has graciously Handed you is NOT your own doing.he does not even have to hand us the rope.
The instructions to "grap the rope" and then to "hold fast to the rope " are about as simple as it gets.
It appears you simply dont want to let go of the cliff (which is the sin that leads to death.).in order to obey and grab the rope.. So you waffle on in a verbal attack against me..
But attacking mE ,wont change the scriptures.you cant have salvation AND your sin ..you cant serve two masters.
In christ you are free. So choose one.

-when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,.....

--/For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?....
 
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Lamb

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You obey the gospel when you believe.

Obey the Law is still the law and not gospel which is what you're so confused about.
 

Josiah

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Its the old adage..man hangs off cliff awaiting certain doom. God lets down a rope.. God does it we do not ,we cant take any credit .and he says "Grab the rope" BUT..you say..oh no god i cant grab the rope i cant obey your instruction to grab the rope..on no that would be saving myself..


Thus, your rejection of Christ as the Savior since the MOST he does is throw you a lifeline..... He makes it POSSIBLE for you to save yourself. That is, of course, the Jewish and Muslim and sometime Hindu concept of justification (albeit they speak of GOD doing this rather than specifically Jesus - just as you did here). You didn't even try to make it sound Christian by mentioning Christ. Still: no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy. AT MOST, the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu pov of God helps us..... God makes it possible..... You checking the second box: self saves self.



I mean get real josiah.. Its a rediculous argument .grabbing the rope god has graciously Handed you is NOT your own doing.he does not even have to hand us the rope.

Again, that's "God HELPS us." The Jewish, Muslim, sometime Hindu view of justification. Not even the MENTION of Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or grace.... just how YOU are the one who saved yourself by pulling yourself up via that rope. The antithesis of the Christian view of the incarnation, of God coming down to US in the PERSON OF CHRIST, saving us NOT by throwing up a robe but by DYING for us on the Cross, SHEDDING HIS BLOOD for us, RISING from the dead. But in your theology, self saves self by becoming sinless. YOU reach up to GOD.





But attacking mE ,wont change the scriptures.you cant have salvation AND your sin ..you cant serve two masters.


No one needs salvation if they have no sin.... if they are PERFECT as God is..... HOLY as God is...... LOVING as God is. Salvation was needed only AFTER the Fall. Thus, the absurdity of your view that FIRST we must be free of sin, THEN comes salvation. From what? Saved from what? I understand the reason why you don't mention Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or the Incarnation (or pretty much anything Christian vis-a-vis justification) - because you deny the reality of the Fall, of Sin... you think too highly of yourself. You can save yourself..... but wait, there's nothing for you to be saved from since you are sinless or you can't be saved.


In christ you are free. So choose one.

I see your point: if we have no sin, we need no Christ..... no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no grace, no salvation, no Christianity. God helps those who help themselves and so you can be sinless, perfect, holy - and thus make Jesus a joke, a bad and meaningless and worthless joke.




what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?....


Well.... you seem to be an enemy of the Gospel, displacing it with the Law - which you claim to obey. So, IF you DO obey it - ALWAYS 100% perfect, ALWAYS 100% holy, ALWAYS 100% loving - then yup, I guess you are saved albeit I can't figure out from what.

But for those who love and embrace the Gospel, who DO believe and rely on the Cross rather than their own perfect, absolute perfection and holiness, I think the outcome is we are at that point saved. And yes, we will continue to need the forgiveness that results from salvation because like Paul, we will continue to sin. As Scripture says, "NO ONE is righteousness, no not even one..... NO ONE does what is right." It doesn't say, "CHRISTIANS are righteous, every single one..... the SAVED always are perfect, holy, loving, obedient, every single one."




Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah
 

Alithis

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You obey the gospel when you believe.

Obey the Law is still the law and not gospel which is what you're so confused about.

the devils believe.. and i assure you they do not obey - so NOPE
 

Alithis

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Thus, your rejection of Christ as the Savior since the MOST he does is throw you a lifeline..... He makes it POSSIBLE for you to save yourself. That is, of course, the Jewish and Muslim and sometime Hindu concept of justification (albeit they speak of GOD doing this rather than specifically Jesus - just as you did here). You didn't even try to make it sound Christian by mentioning Christ. Still: no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy. AT MOST, the Jewish, Islamic, Hindu pov of God helps us..... God makes it possible..... You checking the second box: self saves self.





Again, that's "God HELPS us." The Jewish, Muslim, sometime Hindu view of justification. Not even the MENTION of Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or grace.... just how YOU are the one who saved yourself by pulling yourself up via that rope. The antithesis of the Christian view of the incarnation, of God coming down to US in the PERSON OF CHRIST, saving us NOT by throwing up a robe but by DYING for us on the Cross, SHEDDING HIS BLOOD for us, RISING from the dead. But in your theology, self saves self by becoming sinless. YOU reach up to GOD.








No one needs salvation if they have no sin.... if they are PERFECT as God is..... HOLY as God is...... LOVING as God is. Salvation was needed only AFTER the Fall. Thus, the absurdity of your view that FIRST we must be free of sin, THEN comes salvation. From what? Saved from what? I understand the reason why you don't mention Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or the Incarnation (or pretty much anything Christian vis-a-vis justification) - because you deny the reality of the Fall, of Sin... you think too highly of yourself. You can save yourself..... but wait, there's nothing for you to be saved from since you are sinless or you can't be saved.




I see your point: if we have no sin, we need no Christ..... no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no grace, no salvation, no Christianity. God helps those who help themselves and so you can be sinless, perfect, holy - and thus make Jesus a joke, a bad and meaningless and worthless joke.







Well.... you seem to be an enemy of the Gospel, displacing it with the Law - which you claim to obey. So, IF you DO obey it - ALWAYS 100% perfect, ALWAYS 100% holy, ALWAYS 100% loving - then yup, I guess you are saved albeit I can't figure out from what.

But for those who love and embrace the Gospel, who DO believe and rely on the Cross rather than their own perfect, absolute perfection and holiness, I think the outcome is we are at that point saved. And yes, we will continue to need the forgiveness that results from salvation because like Paul, we will continue to sin. As Scripture says, "NO ONE is righteousness, no not even one..... NO ONE does what is right." It doesn't say, "CHRISTIANS are righteous, every single one..... the SAVED always are perfect, holy, loving, obedient, every single one."




Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

i see you seem to not actually know what the gospel ,good news - message is ..

christ became one of us
died on the cross for our sin
lay in the ground 3 days and 3 night
rose again from the dead
-so
repent
be baptised
and you will receive the holy ghost .

that my friend is the gospel ..in full, with instructions .-it is absolute undeniable scripture and it has never changed and never will .

most here fully leave out repentance .. they think if they say sorry for their sin they can then keep on doing it and show zero repentance by their actions.they give lip service only -God is not fooled .
they have not died to their old nature by burial into christ's death,..thus have not been baptised into christ's death

they do not live now as one resurrected to live in his resurrection to serve him in holiness and the fear of God ..

so they have neither repented nor been baptised into christ

and for the most part those opposing this message have not yet received the baptism of the holy ghost

and so by the spirit of this world oppose obedience to the gospel .-in direct contradiction to the scriptures .. asking me elsewhere "do you obey it at all times " .. if i dont ..im not saved .. so why dont you ?
 

Josiah

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LAW - the demands of God, the mandates of God, instructions. "You must be perfect just as God is perfect."
GOSPEL - the mercy of God, the forgiveness, justification and salvation of God, accomplished solely and only and exclusively by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.


No, I disagree with your position that self saves self by jumping perfectly through a number of hoops - repenting, baptizing, obedience, being divinely perfect, being divinely holy, being divinely loving - thus making Jesus a bad joke.




.
 

Josiah

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the devils believe.. and i assure you they do not obey - so NOPE


No one does. There is only ONE who is good (Mark 10:18). There is NO ONE who is righteous, no, not even one. There is NO ONE who does what is right, no, not even one. Good luck with your whole "self saves self by being obedient" justification, your looking in the mirror while repudiating the Cross.





.
 

MoreCoffee

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No one does. There is only ONE who is good (Mark 10:18). There is NO ONE who is righteous, no, not even one. There is NO ONE who does what is right, no, not even one. Good luck with your whole "self saves self by being obedient" justification, your looking in the mirror while repudiating the Cross.

Context in the wider sense is needed: And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil. (Job 1:8)
 

Josiah

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And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.[/COLOR] (Job 1:8)

You may interpret this to be that among the oh 10,000 or so men on earth at the time, Job was the most upright. But this does not say, "Job is PERFECT just as God in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).... the law is NOT, "Thou shalt be better than most of the sinful bloats that make up 100% of humans." God doesn't grade on a curve. It's "Thou shalt be perfect just as God in heaven is perfect." Jesus states that there is not even one person who is GOOD (much less perfect) - Mark 10:18. Scripture tells us that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one. Your attempt to water down the Law so very, very, very, very much as to make Christ unnecessary and to go back to the Jewish view that God helps those become good enough is sad.... and not biblical.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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You may interpret this to be that among the oh 10,000 or so men on earth at the time, Job was the most upright. But this does not say, "Job is PERFECT just as God in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).... the law is NOT, "Thou shalt be better than most of the sinful bloats that make up 100% of humans." God doesn't grade on a curve. It's "Thou shalt be perfect just as God in heaven is perfect." Jesus states that there is not even one person who is GOOD (much less perfect) - Mark 10:18. Scripture tells us that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one. Your attempt to water down the Law so very, very, very, very much as to make Christ unnecessary and to go back to the Jewish view that God helps those become good enough is sad.... and not biblical.
Pax CHRISTI
- Josiah

Of course it was on Earth, Job was perfect and upright while still on earth. Jehovah said so. It is in holy scripture. When you quote from saint Paul (who is quoting from a psalm) that no one is righteous no not one surely that is about those on Earth yet Job is said by Jehovah to be perfect and upright on Earth. Context in the wider sense really does matter.
 

Josiah

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Of course it was on Earth, Job was perfect and upright while still on earth. Jehovah said so. It is in holy scripture. When you quote from saint Paul (who is quoting from a psalm) that no one is righteous no not one surely that is about those on Earth yet Job is said by Jehovah to be perfect and upright on Earth. Context in the wider sense really does matter.


Interpretations aside, you think God grades on a curve - all that matters is that we be GOOD (Read Mark 10:18). But the Job quote specifically compares Job to those ON EARTH (all of whom were sinful bloats, guilty of original sin according to the RC Denomination), ON EARTH (you keep skipping that part). Matthew 5:48 is NOT, "Thou shalt be gooder than some other sinful bloats currently living on the Earth."

But I see your point: if self could get self to be PERFECT (although no one is perfect as God in heaven is), or even just GOOD (but no one on earth is good - only God), then I see your point: self would have justified self (although again.... FROM WHAT?) - and yes, then your remission of any mention of Christ, the Cross, the Blood, Mercy - yup, that would be appropriate since you don't need no Savior, no Christ, no Blood, no mercy - because you are perfect just as God in heaven is perfect, Holy just as God in heaven is holy, loving just as Christ on the Cross..... you don't need no mercy, your perfect. If you believe that, then your justification theology makes sense. Good luck with all that, you and althis.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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Of course it was on Earth, Job was perfect and upright while still on earth. Jehovah said so. It is in holy scripture. When you quote from saint Paul (who is quoting from a psalm) that no one is righteous no not one surely that is about those on Earth yet Job is said by Jehovah to be perfect and upright on Earth. Context in the wider sense really does matter.
Interpretations aside

Interpretations aside? Then why do you keep proffering your interpretation of "on earth" as if it were the one true meaning that can be attached to those two words?

, you think God grades on a curve - all that matters is that we be GOOD (Read Mark 10:18)

I think nothing remotely like your claim, namely that "you think God grades on a curve - all that matters is that we be GOOD".

. But the Job quote specifically compares Job to those ON EARTH

The quote from Job 1:8 mentions "in the earth" but makes no comparison between Job and anybody else. You appear to disregard the simple and much less strained view that "in the earth" means what it says. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

(all of whom were sinful bloats, guilty of original sin according to the RC Denomination), ON EARTH (you keep skipping that part).

It may suit some theory that you want to advance to insist that I've not mentioned "in the earth" but the facts are otherwise. I have included the words in every quote of the verse and in many posts discussing the specific words "a perfect and an upright man". The post shown at the top of this post is one of many examples where I explicitly mention "on earth".

Matthew 5:48 is NOT, "Thou shalt be gooder than some other sinful bloats currently living on the Earth."
But I see your point: if self could get self to be PERFECT (although no one is perfect as God in heaven is), or even just GOOD (but no one on earth is good - only God), then I see your point: self would have justified self (although again.... FROM WHAT?) - and yes, then your remission of any mention of Christ, the Cross, the Blood, Mercy - yup, that would be appropriate since you don't need no Savior, no Christ, no Blood, no mercy - because you are perfect just as God in heaven is perfect, Holy just as God in heaven is holy, loving just as Christ on the Cross..... you don't need no mercy, your perfect. If you believe that, then your justification theology makes sense. Good luck with all that, you and althis.
Pax CHRISTI
- Josiah

See the above comments with regard to your comment "Thou shalt be gooder than some other sinful bloats currently living on the Earth.". Give your explanation it is very unlikely that you have any clear grasp of what I have written. Something is causing you to write things such as "But I see your point: if self could get self to be PERFECT (although no one is perfect as God in heaven is), or even just GOOD (but no one on earth is good - only God), then I see your point: self would have justified self (although again.... FROM WHAT?) - and yes, then your remission of any mention of Christ, the Cross, the Blood, Mercy - yup, that would be appropriate since you don't need no Savior, no Christ, no Blood, no mercy - because you are perfect just as God in heaven is perfect, Holy just as God in heaven is holy, loving just as Christ on the Cross..... you don't need no mercy, your perfect. If you believe that, then your justification theology makes sense. Good luck with all that, you and althis." I've made no such point and believe no such thing.
 

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No one does. There is only ONE who is good (Mark 10:18). There is NO ONE who is righteous, no, not even one. There is NO ONE who does what is right, no, not even one. Good luck with your whole "self saves self by being obedient" justification, your looking in the mirror while repudiating the Cross.
.

i agree with george in that you need some context //you allude to verses but you post them well out of context ..but i disagree with george as to what the context is (ie its nothing to do with job -that too is out of context with the scripture you're quoting )
and i disagree with you in saying self saves /.. the truth is i have never said so and no one else has either .. you do not seem to desire to recognize any responsibility toward god to obey him.

we know that the scripture is speaking past tense "for all have sinned" -does not say for "all will continue to sin" .And we know that without christ all will continue to sin..because the human race is enslaved by sin and that's why they need a saviour ..
We also know that christ came to set us free from the master of sin ... a person set free no longer has to serve that master they are free from.., they may choose to.., but they do not HAVE to . but oh how foolish to fall into the self deception that it is ok to continue in the practice f sin . such a person has not yet tasted the grace of God because such a person has not yet realized how utterly vile their sin is ,-they still judge themselves as "not that bad " they delude themselves as to the true the true state of their heart and they justify their ongoing sin with comforting words of grace while at the same time refusing to repent of it .


Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say,
“No one is righteous—
not even one.
No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.
Their tongues are filled with lies.”
“Snake venom drips from their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them.
They don’t know where to find peace.”
“They have no fear of God at all.”
Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

ouhh well hellooo looky here ..when we have faith ,when we truly have faith, we fulfil the law ..wow how amazing is that ?
but wait .. if sin is lawlessness .. then righteousness is lawfulness . and if we are made the righteousness of god in christ jesus .. then we become lawful rather than law breakers (and drop it ..we re not speaking of the law of moss under that covenant ..but we speak of the absolute moral law of God .
by faith we are saved by faith we then overcome the world as christ over came the world ..by faith we walk free of that which used to enslave us .. the only reason a person does not walk into the promise of freedom is because they do not walk in faith .. they speak it with their mouths .. (lip service) but they do not live it out in their actions .
they need to put their action where their mouth is .
 

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No one does. There is only ONE who is good (Mark 10:18). There is NO ONE who is righteous, no, not even one. There is NO ONE who does what is right, no, not even one. Good luck with your whole "self saves self by being obedient" justification, your looking in the mirror while repudiating the Cross.
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i agree with george in that you need some context //you allude to verses but you post them well out of context ..but i disagree with george as to what the context is (ie its nothing to do with job -that too is out of context with the scripture you're quoting )
and i disagree with you in saying self saves /.. the truth is i have never said so and no one else has either .. you do not seem to desire to recognize any responsibility toward god to obey him.

we know that the scripture is speaking past tense "for all have sinned" -does not say for "all will continue to sin" .And we know that without christ all will continue to sin..because the human race is enslaved by sin and that's why they need a saviour ..
We also know that christ came to set us free from the master of sin ... a person set free no longer has to serve that master they are free from.., they may choose to.., but they do not HAVE to . but oh how foolish to fall into the self deception that it is ok to continue in the practice f sin . such a person has not yet tasted the grace of God because such a person has not yet realized how utterly vile their sin is ,-they still judge themselves as "not that bad " they delude themselves as to the true the true state of their heart and they justify their ongoing sin with comforting words of grace while at the same time refusing to repent of it .


Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say,
“No one is righteous—
not even one.
No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one.” “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.
Their tongues are filled with lies.”
“Snake venom drips from their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“They rush to commit murder. Destruction and misery always follow them.
They don’t know where to find peace.”
“They have no fear of God at all.”
Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

ouhh well hellooo looky here ..when we have faith ,when we truly have faith, we fulfil the law ..wow how amazing is that ?
but wait .. if sin is lawlessness .. then righteousness is lawfulness . and if we are made the righteousness of god in christ jesus .. then we become lawful rather than law breakers (and drop it ..we re not speaking of the law of moss under that covenant ..but we speak of the absolute moral law of God .
by faith we are saved by faith we then overcome the world as christ over came the world ..by faith we walk free of that which used to enslave us .. the only reason a person does not walk into the promise of freedom is because they do not walk in faith .. they speak it with their mouths .. (lip service) but they do not live it out in their actions .
they need to put their action where their mouth is .
 

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What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


and all this he says leading up to a few IMPORTANT points ...

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


ouh no ..is paul preaching sinless perfection by saying we should no longer sin.. NO hes just preaching the truth that some dont seem to like .
 

Lamb

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You're mixing Justification and Sanctification again.
 
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