When you're sad or ill do you wonder if God loves you?

[psalms 91]

if doubt need not lead to unbelief then why have you let it do so... you express doubt in the healing of god and your posts display you do not believe in it.
so they are entwined completely in you and need repenting of . the serpent in the garden did not sow unbelief .. he sowed doubt - that is how insidious the activity is .

there is no such thing as blind belief in the lord Jesus.. there is just unbelief or belief, faith or the absence of it . when we truly believe we then act in faith . faith is an action .

every single person who truly believes in the words of the lord Jesus without ever having "seen" are acting on what you call blind faith .. the term is just a smokescreen to further confuse people away form faith.. away from acting on the truth of the word of God .

It is not they who know of the word of god but they who ACT on it who are saved .

Amen

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe in God and in his works including healing of illness and injuries.

 

[psalms 91]

Then you believe, no doubt, no oduble mindedness

 

[Josiah]

Doubt can lead to unbelief but it need not lead to it.

I think it is helpful to make a distinction between KNOWLEDGE and RELIANCE/faith/trust. They are related, often, but not at all identical.


Faith can be a noun (in which case it applies to the subject of our faith) or as a verb (in which case it applies to the trust/reliance in that subject).

I'll address it from the standpoint of the verb since that's the use we commonly use.


"Faith" = to trust, to rely. Especially trust and reliance in something that cannot be empirically proven. Theologically, to trust and rely on God. It does not mean (at least not primarily or exclusively) to understand, to comprehend, to embrace as factual.


When I was a kid, I had surgery (long story, doesn't matter). Anyway, I was just old enough to know I could die - and what that meant. I actually was okay with that. It had very little to do with heaven (a concept not yet in my heart or head) but with 1 John 4:8, "We rely on the love of God, because God is love."

I remember meeting the surgeon in the hospital - and that he kept calling me by the wrong name (Joe, I think). I realized, he doesn't know me - much less love me or even care about me. That was powerful. I remember being moved onto the cold, hard table with the huge light above me - although by this time I was already very sleepy - fighting that as best I could.

I didn't know anything about the surgery, I didn't know anything about this surgeon, and clearly he knew nothing about me (not even my name) - or any of the rest of the staff involved in all this. And yet, I entrusted my life. Willingly. And I so remember being okay with that. I so remember thinking: no matter what, it's okay, God loves me... His love will triumph no matter what happens.

While my reliance was active on my part (I placed my life in their hands), there were no "works" on my part involved. There was no "obedience" other than I laid limp and allowed to happen whatever happened. There was little to know knowledge on my part. None of that mattered.


Another illustration...

I know how planes fly; I understand the principles involved (I have a Ph.D. in physics). Still, whenever I board one of those HUGE planes, I am amazed. They are so big and heavy! And inside, they are STUFFED with overweight Americans (probably more so than the engineers planned for), and under them, all their luggage - too much. It's always the same. I look at those wings and that curvature and think, "no way!" And, of course, I don't know the pilot and he doesn't know me (or care). I don't know the flight plan or the weather report. I don't know the mechanics or their reports or when this plane was last overhauled. In fact, I know NOTHING about this particular plan or crew or flight. And I realize that when a plane stops working at 40K feet, well, it means we'll all be meeting Jesus. While the ODDS of that are very small, that means little for this particular flight - this could be that 1% (or whatever). It bothers me not. I board the plane. And as it takes off, as it's going down the runway, I hope to be able to see the wings and sit (passively!) in awe of it all, and then, surprisingly soon, the wheels chirp, and the plane rises - gloriously, and Hawaii is just 5 hours away.



Faith and Knowledge certainly have a relationship, but it's not a causitive or mechanical one, but rather a relational one. See my two illustrations above.


To insist that faith is the RESULT of knowledge is to deny that those below a certain IQ or age are capable of faith and therefore of salvation. And, IMO, undermines the very nature of faith which is to rest, rely, trust.

I am well aware that I can't "prove" much of anything that is in my heart. Actually, I "understand" probably LESS today than I did years ago (I was my smartest when I was a sophomore in college, lol), more aware of the questions than the answers I have, more aware of mystery. It hasn't impacted my faith at all (if anything, it's increased it).


As noted earlier, directly to the thread, no.... I never forget that God LOVES me. It is foundational to my faith and life and being. Yes, the fallen world is full of bad, and that will impact us, but that's not the focus of my life or soul - God is. God's heart - His unconditional love, mercy - are the constant, the certainty, the anchor... the ultimate Reality. God is love.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then you believe, no doubt, no oduble mindedness

Yet you "like" a post that says I do not believe and seem comfortable with the accusations made in it.

 

[psalms 91]

not at all as stated. I would have to see the post I liked inorder to tell you why I liked it. I do not like doubt or unbelief although to me they are one and the same

 

[MoreCoffee]

not at all as stated. I would have to see the post I liked in order to tell you why I liked it. I do not like doubt or unbelief although to me they are one and the same

See post #40 and your reply to it in post #41

 

[psalms 91]

How do you get that I like unbelief out of that. That is a very twisted version of what was actually said. Perhaps you need to go back and read that post again

 

[Alithis]

I think it is helpful to make a distinction between KNOWLEDGE and RELIANCE/faith/trust. They are related, often, but not at all identical.


Faith can be a noun (in which case it applies to the subject of our faith) or as a verb (in which case it applies to the trust/reliance in that subject).

I'll address it from the standpoint of the verb since that's the use we commonly use.


"Faith" = to trust, to rely. Especially trust and reliance in something that cannot be empirically proven. Theologically, to trust and rely on God. It does not mean (at least not primarily or exclusively) to understand, to comprehend, to embrace as factual.


When I was a kid, I had surgery (long story, doesn't matter). Anyway, I was just old enough to know I could die - and what that meant. I actually was okay with that. It had very little to do with heaven (a concept not yet in my heart or head) but with 1 John 4:8, "We rely on the love of God, because God is love."

I remember meeting the surgeon in the hospital - and that he kept calling me by the wrong name (Joe, I think). I realized, he doesn't know me - much less love me or even care about me. That was powerful. I remember being moved onto the cold, hard table with the huge light above me - although by this time I was already very sleepy - fighting that as best I could.

I didn't know anything about the surgery, I didn't know anything about this surgeon, and clearly he knew nothing about me (not even my name) - or any of the rest of the staff involved in all this. And yet, I entrusted my life. Willingly. And I so remember being okay with that. I so remember thinking: no matter what, it's okay, God loves me... His love will triumph no matter what happens.

While my reliance was active on my part (I placed my life in their hands), there were no "works" on my part involved. There was no "obedience" other than I laid limp and allowed to happen whatever happened. There was little to know knowledge on my part. None of that mattered.


Another illustration...

I know how planes fly; I understand the principles involved (I have a Ph.D. in physics). Still, whenever I board one of those HUGE planes, I am amazed. They are so big and heavy! And inside, they are STUFFED with overweight Americans (probably more so than the engineers planned for), and under them, all their luggage - too much. It's always the same. I look at those wings and that curvature and think, "no way!" And, of course, I don't know the pilot and he doesn't know me (or care). I don't know the flight plan or the weather report. I don't know the mechanics or their reports or when this plane was last overhauled. In fact, I know NOTHING about this particular plan or crew or flight. And I realize that when a plane stops working at 40K feet, well, it means we'll all be meeting Jesus. While the ODDS of that are very small, that means little for this particular flight - this could be that 1% (or whatever). It bothers me not. I board the plane. And as it takes off, as it's going down the runway, I hope to be able to see the wings and sit (passively!) in awe of it all, and then, surprisingly soon, the wheels chirp, and the plane rises - gloriously, and Hawaii is just 5 hours away.



Faith and Knowledge certainly have a relationship, but it's not a causitive or mechanical one, but rather a relational one. See my two illustrations above.


To insist that faith is the RESULT of knowledge is to deny that those below a certain IQ or age are capable of faith and therefore of salvation. And, IMO, undermines the very nature of faith which is to rest, rely, trust.

I am well aware that I can't "prove" much of anything that is in my heart. Actually, I "understand" probably LESS today than I did years ago (I was my smartest when I was a sophomore in college, lol), more aware of the questions than the answers I have, more aware of mystery. It hasn't impacted my faith at all (if anything, it's increased it).


As noted earlier, directly to the thread, no.... I never forget that God LOVES me. It is foundational to my faith and life and being. Yes, the fallen world is full of bad, and that will impact us, but that's not the focus of my life or soul - God is. God's heart - His unconditional love, mercy - are the constant, the certainty, the anchor... the ultimate Reality. God is love.



- Josiah

many words . how does it apply .really..

no promise left unreceived is any good .
the lord jesus said go and heal the sick ..so we do so.. are the sick always healed .. nope ,does that mean Gods word is not true ? Nope
it means we are getting something wrong .. for one thing james say you ask and do not recieve becaseu we ask amiss ..incorrect and even godless motives also when it comes to healing we are not told to ask for healing we are told to "heal" .. since all we do in christ is in his name this presents the simple assumption that all creation must obey at his name . how much of his name is then IN us and how much are we abiding IN his name .that is to say .. in HIM .

i can "know" theres your knowledge that God heals
i can "say" i trust that God heals .. but if i stop there i neither act in faith nor display i have any faith . that kind of faith is useless ..

the airplane analogy is good ..however it is not trust in god it is trust in planes .you've seen them fly .. abraham's faith was far more then that ..he had never seen god raise the dead and yet he had faith God was able to simply becaseu god had "said " he would make a nation of isaac . so when God told him to sacrifice his only son . he did not say ok lord i believe and trust you . rather he proved his faith by his obedience -salvation is the same .faith to be saved is proven by obedience . so it is with healing .

in a house i was in last week was a lady on a crutch who had fallen .. had inured her back, ws in a lot of pain when sitting and hobling o the crutch to get around .. she was in a lot of pain .the lord said "heal the sick.. i offered to pray for her and she consented so i commanded the pain to go in jesus name .. knowing the truth that Jesus heals and acting on it are very different things .. having faith without putting the faith into action is ,again, useless .

she was healed of the pain put the crutch aside and started to walk without it .. we prayed some more and she wept and repented of sin and such joy filed that house .
i have prayed for many folks for little things and i see more and more things begin to happen -why ? because we obey ,thats all . the apostles learned ,the deciples learned .. a disciple is one who is learning to become like his master .
denominational institutions wil teach you to be like the denominational institution .. only following and obeying the lord Jesus by HIS holy Spirit can teach you to become like the Lord JEsus and learning from those who are doing so. not from men in robes and collars who speak words with out the action of faith any where in sight .

 

[visionary]

I am going to tell you a little story about faith, healing and doubt.

An older lady was given a diagnosis of colon problems that needed surgery. She, by faith, asked that the elders come pray for her. They never did that before nor heard of anyone who did. They doubted that they could. But they went anyway with the oil anointing her in prayer. The doctors did one more scan before surgery and found nothing. She praised the Lord. They shook their head in bewilderment. Things happen to those who truly believe, ask, and do it according to His word. It doesn't matter if the other players have no faith in God's procedure.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The common practise in the Church is for the elder(s) to anoint the sick and pray for them. After praying over the sick person, an elder anoints the person with oil. He says: "Through this holy anointing, and by His most tender mercy, may the Lord heal you and pardon you of all your sins." This is done in compliance with the example and word given in saint James' letter where he writes "Is anyone ill among you? Let him bring in the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And a prayer of faith will save the infirm, and the Lord will save him. And if he has sins, these will be forgiven him." (James 5:14-15)

 

[psalms 91]

The common practise in the Church is for the elder(s) to anoint the sick and pray for them. After praying over the sick person, an elder anoints the person with oil. He says: "Through this holy anointing, and by His most tender mercy, may the Lord heal you and pardon you of all your sins." This is done in compliance with the example and word given in saint James' letter where he writes "Is anyone ill among you? Let him bring in the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And a prayer of faith will save the infirm, and the Lord will save him. And if he has sins, these will be forgiven him." (James 5:14-15)

Yup thats what every church should do

 

[Alithis]

Yup thats what every church should do

Is it? What if the elders are voted in because of thier long term attendance and actually have no faith that anyone will get healed ..?
What does he mean by elders? Since he writes to the church which is very young and recently scatterd due to fleeing persecutions ..
I believe he is saying to call for those more experienced in healing to come and pray for the sick after the less experienced have not prevailed.. An elder should never be a thing of age in years but of standing in the manifestation of the power of God.. For it is not the fervant prayer of an old man that avails much,but of a rightous man ...

Just commenting on it.since the topic was mentioned.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the Catholic Church the elders are ordained ministers of the gospel trained and exercising pastoral gifts in the community of the faithful.

 

[psalms 91]

Is it? What if the elders are voted in because of thier long term attendance and actually have no faith that anyone will get healed ..?
What does he mean by elders? Since he writes to the church which is very young and recently scatterd due to fleeing persecutions ..
I believe he is saying to call for those more experienced in healing to come and pray for the sick after the less experienced have not prevailed.. An elder should never be a thing of age in years but of standing in the manifestation of the power of God.. For it is not the fervant prayer of an old man that avails much,but of a rightous man ...

Just commenting on it.since the topic was mentioned.

I believe what it says and whether they have faith or not is not reallythe question

 

[Rens]

When you're sad or ill do you wonder if God loves you?

Being ill can be a very miserable experience and it seems so unnecessary so why do Christians get ill? Surely being in Christ and being his body ought to confer some sort of immunity, right?

Not when I'm sick. I just rebuke the pain or get prayed for. Once it didn't go and I just built my faith for a year with reading texts that I am healed by His stripes etc. until I believed it, hours a day and at night Benny Hinn speaking healing texts on my cd player. Then a year later went to a service and got healed. But when I feel alone and He is unwilling to give me a partner while he gives my ex one when he prays one second and all those slimy *** on Facebook, everyone is just allowed to have friends and not be alone I first feel like He doesn't care, then I poor my heart out, no answer, oh yes an accusation that I don't care about souls enough, then not. What do I care? Back to my internet addiction. Bye! You should pray more. Alone? You won't even give me one person to just pray with, not even a woman. No do it all alone. Who cares if you were half of a twin? Quite sick of it actually and angry.

 

[psalms 91]

Not when I'm sick. I just rebuke the pain or get prayed for. Once it didn't go and I just built my faith for a year with reading texts that I am healed by His stripes etc. until I believed it, hours a day and at night Benny Hinn speaking healing texts on my cd player. Then a year later went to a service and got healed. But when I feel alone and He is unwilling to give me a partner while he gives my ex one when he prays one second and all those slimy *** on Facebook, everyone is just allowed to have friends and not be alone I first feel like He doesn't care, then I poor my heart out, no answer, oh yes an accusation that I don't care about souls enough, then not. What do I care? Back to my internet addiction. Bye! You should pray more. Alone? You won't even give me one person to just pray with, not even a woman. No do it all alone. Who cares if you were half of a twin? Quite sick of it actually and angry.

Praying for you messy and will pray with you as well if you want

 

[Alithis]

I believe what it says and whether they have faith or not is not really the question

yes but what does he mean by "elders " .. they are not elected by democratic process .. -i mean i know they are in practice , but there is no instruction to elect them that way -in acts i think they were elected because of thier standing in the manifestation of the gifts and of the power ...ie signs and wonder confirmed thier calling in god and as a result of that they were chosen o certain office . just like our lord Jesus proved his position as head of his church by the confirmation of God through signs and wonders (one wonder being a voice speaking from heaven declaring him. )

 

[Rens]

Praying for you messy and will pray with you as well if you want

Thanks!!
Your prayer worked. Didn't know that anger was even there. Lol suppose He'd have someone I'd scare them away immediately.
I used to pray so much and with church, but now I can never go, alone with the kids. My son does pray with me sometimes.

 

[psalms 91]

Messy, I am glad that you can pray and that God worked and took the anger away.