Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Josiah]

Do you know? Josiah nails it and it is frightening how many, when talking about Jesus as Savior really only talk about themselves and little is said about Jesus.

I do this.... I do that..... I'M great.... I'M wonderful...... I will deserve this......

Long posts on justification (narrow) and often the word "Christ" never appears at all (or perhaps rarely, only in passing, for nothing really significant)... certainly no mention of the Cross or the Blood or mercy in this regard. But lots and lots and lots of ME, ME, ME, ME, ME...... I, I, I, I, I. or worse, reversed "YOU gotta.... YOU must...... YOU probably don't....."




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[MoreCoffee]

Let's talk about Jesus and you go first and explain your version of what you believe Jesus did at the cross but here is the clincher, don't talk about yourself at all. Go

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets and offered his shed blood as the sacrificial blood of the new covenant thus offering the perfect oblation. "Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says Jehovah of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says Jehovah of hosts. But you profane it when you say that Jehovah's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised." (Malachi 1:10-12) "Therefore, having been justified by faith, let us be at peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ. For through him we also have access by faith to this grace, in which we stand firm, and to glory, in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only that, but we also find glory in tribulation, knowing that tribulation exercises patience, and patience leads to proving, yet truly proving leads to hope, but hope is not unfounded, because the love of God is poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:1-11) "When he had gone, Jesus said: Now has the Son of man been glorified, and in him God has been glorified. If God has been glorified in him, God will in turn glorify him in himself, and will glorify him very soon. Little children, I shall be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and, as I told the Jews, where I am going, you cannot come. I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you. It is by your love for one another, that everyone will recognise you as my disciples." (John 13:31-35)

 

[psalms 91]

Your words or the churchs

 

[Alithis]

to walk in obedience to the lord JEsus is all about doing HIS will.. not me not I .. but guess what .. it is ME and it is I who wil stand before him to give an account .

obedience is not on autopilot ..sorry .

 

[pinacled]

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets and offered his shed blood as the sacrificial blood of the new covenant thus offering the perfect oblation. "Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says Jehovah of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says Jehovah of hosts. But you profane it when you say that Jehovah's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised." (Malachi 1:10-12) "Therefore, having been justified by faith, let us be at peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ. For through him we also have access by faith to this grace, in which we stand firm, and to glory, in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only that, but we also find glory in tribulation, knowing that tribulation exercises patience, and patience leads to proving, yet truly proving leads to hope, but hope is not unfounded, because the love of God is poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:1-11) "When he had gone, Jesus said: Now has the Son of man been glorified, and in him God has been glorified. If God has been glorified in him, God will in turn glorify him in himself, and will glorify him very soon. Little children, I shall be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and, as I told the Jews, where I am going, you cannot come. I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you. It is by your love for one another, that everyone will recognise you as my disciples." (John 13:31-35)

Amen. Is near enouogh that need be said. So many more have need to know the who is faithfully promise 2 fold.

 

[Lamb]

it is what chrsit has done that placed us back on the ark ..No one is trying to taje credit for what he has done - it is obedience that will keep you there and stop you from jumping off it again. ,we are not saved to then be children of disobedience . the disobedient and the rebellious do not inherit the kingdom of god ,nor the fruitless . salvation is offered by grace ,it is grasped by faith ..by these we are put back on the right path .. but deviate from that path and we will perish . you cant sit out the rest of your life saying i was saved on such and such a date and now i can cruise and do whatever i will -the lord says of these types .".you "wicked" servant " even what you have will be taken from you and given to another ..
except we take up out cross and die to ourselves in order to do his will.. that means to obey him .. we cannot be his deciples - HIS words not mine ,take it up wit him if you disagree .
if we are not fruitful we are cut off as a branch and fruitfulness comes via obedience . cease to be obedience and you will bring forth the fruit of disobedience .. you can't have it both ways -we cannot have both sin and righteousness and think we can enjoy both .without repentance there is no forgivness . and the unforgiven do not enter the kingdom of God .
many are called few are chosen -so who is chosen .. the ones that are obedient to the call ..not the rebellious .

WHO is the one keeping you in this "obedience"? Why do you think you're so alone when it's all about God in our lives, everywhere and helping us with everything? WHO turns you to Him? WHO guides you to do the works He set up before you were even born in order to do? Our lives are not Godless.

This thread was about justification in the narrow sense as Josiah keeps pointing out yet, so many here keep turning it back into sanctification and then pointing to themselves again and again. But it's all about God. By faith through grace we are saved and by faith we live our lives which means there is GOD. That is communion in a non-Lord's Supper type of talk.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets and offered his shed blood as the sacrificial blood of the new covenant thus offering the perfect oblation. "Oh, that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire upon my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says Jehovah of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says Jehovah of hosts. But you profane it when you say that Jehovah's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised." (Malachi 1:10-12) "Therefore, having been justified by faith, let us be at peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ. For through him we also have access by faith to this grace, in which we stand firm, and to glory, in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only that, but we also find glory in tribulation, knowing that tribulation exercises patience, and patience leads to proving, yet truly proving leads to hope, but hope is not unfounded, because the love of God is poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (Romans 5:1-11) "When he had gone, Jesus said: Now has the Son of man been glorified, and in him God has been glorified. If God has been glorified in him, God will in turn glorify him in himself, and will glorify him very soon. Little children, I shall be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and, as I told the Jews, where I am going, you cannot come. I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you. It is by your love for one another, that everyone will recognise you as my disciples." (John 13:31-35)

Your words or the church's

Both.

 

[MoreCoffee]

WHO is the one keeping you in this "obedience"?

Does it matter who enables? Surely all pray to God for help to obey and God promises to give it. Ultimately it is always God who enables yet is is men and women who do the work.

Why do you think you're so alone when it's all about God in our lives, everywhere and helping us with everything? WHO turns you to Him? WHO guides you to do the works He set up before you were even born in order to do? Our lives are not Godless.

This thread was about justification in the narrow sense as Josiah keeps pointing out yet, so many here keep turning it back into sanctification and then pointing to themselves again and again. But it's all about God. By faith through grace we are saved and by faith we live our lives which means there is GOD. That is communion in a non-Lord's Supper type of talk.

Justification in the holy scriptures does not have a narrow sense it is always about men and women being made holy, righteous, and good in the image of God through the life of Christ Jesus in them.

 

[psalms 91]

I can see we are at an imp[asse here but one question, if we play no part and it is all God why do we give an account when we stand before Him? It seems wrong if it is all God and not us

 

[Josiah]

to walk in obedience to the lord JEsus is all about doing HIS will.. not me not I.. but guess what .. it is ME and it is I who wil stand before him to give an account . obedience is not on autopilot ...

According to you, justification (narrow) is all about you.... and your obedience... your being perfect like God, you being holy as God is, your loving all people to the extent that Jesus did on the Cross..... YOU..... YOUR obedience, YOUR works, YOUR stuff. Looking not to the Cross but in the mirror at YOU. This, you keep disagreeing with the Protestant view being expressed here by some of us.


I respectfully disagree. I believe that Jesus is the Savior (in this sense of justification, narrow - the sole and only and exclusive issue of this thread), for this, I look to the Cross rather than in the mirror. In the words of the Bible, "if salvation where through obedience, than Christ died for no purpose." Who needs Christ - His Cross, His Blood.... who needs mercy..... when you got you obeying God by being as perfect as He is, as Holy as He is, as loving as He is? Well, perhaps I just don't have your ego.... perhaps I'm accepting what the Bible says that NO ONE is righteous, not not even one.... that NO ONE does the will of God, no not even one. I just don't have the ego to insist that the Bible is right about all the other 7.2 billion people but it's wrong about one.... just one..... only one..... ME, cuz I'M obedient, I'M perfect, I'M holy, I'M all loving to God and all people.... I don't need no mercy, no Christ, no Savior, no forgiveness cuz I'M obedient. I understand your opinion of yourself but I just don't share it.

I'm trusting/relying on CHRIST for justification, looking to the Cross not the mirror. THAT is what makes me Protestant on this point ("siding" with Luther and Calvin on this point, who of course the RC Denomination excommunicated for this). I realize (sadly) that some modern American "Evangelicals" have returned to the Roman view that self saves self by what self does, but I'm holding to the Protestant view on justification - that Jesus is the Savior, not self.




-Josiah




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[Josiah]

Does it matter who enables?

Ah, it's the "Christ the ENABLER" view..... the "Jesus the HELPER" doctrine.... Self saves self with HELP. You at times imply that I'm not conveying the Catholic position, but then you keep saying exactly what I've indicated is the typical Catholic view.


Yes, in some forms of soteriology where self saves self, there is the view that self cannot do this by their OWN innate, natural abilities. Islam and some forms of Hinduism both stress this point (much more so than Catholicism does), we need HELP. Informed, articulate Catholic apologists think to mention this (other Catholics don't). Catholics tend to credit Jesus (and maybe Mary and/or the RC Denomination) with this HELP, those modern American "Evangelicals" that have returned to the RC view on this tend to credit the Holy Spirit, and of course both Islam and Hinduism simply credit the divine - but it's the same thing, we save ourselves albeit not by our own innate, natural abilities. Of course, there's no need for Jesus or the Blood or the Cross or even mercy in this (as we see in Islam and Hinduism - neither have a Christ), we just need HELP. And framing Jesus NOT at the Savior but the Divine Helper (or the Holy Spirit as such) is NOT affirming Jesus as the Savior, it's affirming SELF as the Savior with Jesus (or the Holy Spirit) as the HELPER.


Yes.... again you seem to be affirming what I've said about the RCC/LDS view..... in order to eliminate Jesus as the Savior, in order to place self in that role, in order to make Jesus very small and self very big, in order to return to the Pharisee's position, it is necessary to confuse man with God, law with Gospel, sanctification with justification, to confuse things greatly, to entangle things enormously, all to make self BIG and God small, to enable the kind of patting of self on the back that we've seen in this thread.




- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

According to you, justification (narrow) is all about you.... and your obedience... your being perfect like God, you being holy as God is, your loving all people to the extent that Jesus did on the Cross..... YOU..... YOUR obedience, YOUR works, YOUR stuff.

I respectfully disagree. I believe that Jesus is the Savior (in this sense of justification, narrow - the sole and only and exclusive issue of this thread), for this, I look to the Cross rather than in the mirror. In the words of the Bible, "if salvation where through obedience, than Christ died for no purpose." Who needs Christ - His Cross, His Blood.... who needs mercy..... when you got you obeying God by being as perfect as He is, as Holy as He is, as loving as He is? Well, perhaps I just don't have your ego.... perhaps I'm accepting what the Bible says that NO ONE is righteous, not not even one.... that NO ONE does the will of God, no not even one. I just don't have the ego to insist that the Bible is right about all the other 7.2 billion people but it's wrong about one.... just one..... only one..... ME, cuz I'M obedient, I'M perfect, I'M holy, I'M all loving to God and all people.... I don't need no mercy, no Christ, no Savior, no forgiveness cuz I'M obedient. I understand your opinion of yourself but I just don't share it. I'm trusting/relying on CHRIST for justification, looking to the Cross not the mirror. It's what makes me Protestant.




-Josiah

your judgments are erroneous because no one has said those things are not needed .but you present a picture that then requires you do nothing at all ever ..are you saved to do nothing what so ever ?
when i entered this thread i entered with just that question.., which shows your judgement of me is in error .for i asked .."now that we have been justified by faith what are we to do .."? so firstly i never once denied our need of all the things you mentioned-i simply assumed it is the case and the asked a question .

but you present a picture that then requires you do nothing at all ever now that you have been justified by faith .the ones of whom it is written "NO ONE is righteous, not not even one.... that NO ONE does the will of God, no not even one." are us as the old man -But we are made a new creature in Christ Jesus when we are Buried with him into his death and raised again to new live in his resurrection .. Are you saying this new creature is now bound to be a slave to sin and so imply the lord Jesus failed ? Are you saying this new creature will do no righteousness and never do the will of God ? ... that would be folly .
-time to move on from the cross and get on with being the new creature we are born again to be - if indeed we have been born again of the spirit of God (which we know for when we have been he acknowledges it by the baptism of His holy Spirit .

are you saved to do nothing what so ever ?
that would imply the lord is not speaking to you about anything at all ?
When i speak of ongoing obedience i speak of the things the lord is telling me to do as he speaks by his holy Spirit in concord with his word .

we are to abide in him ,remain in him , yes he helps us .. but he does not control us .we must die daily to self in order to remain obedient .. it is not on autopilot .
we are to enter into the works he has for us to do ..
we are to listen to his voice and folow Him

not do our own will for ME myself and I .
obedience is evidence of faith .

 

[Josiah]

you present a picture that then requires you do nothing at all

CORRECT! Now you are beginning to understand the Protestant position! Yes, if Jesus is the Savior (in this sense of justification, narrow - the sole and exclusive topic of this thread), then you are NOT the Savior of you. Not now, not ever. Not wholly, not partly. IT becomes ALL about Christ. FINALLY you are beginning to understand Protestantism. Correct, if Jesus is the Savior that means we are not the Savior. Jesus is. Job's taken. Justification is about JESUS' perfection (not my lack thereof), JESUS' absolute holiness (not my lack thereof), JESUS' absolute love (not my lack thereof), JESUS' obedience, JESUS' heart, JESUS' love, JESUS' works, JESUS' Cross and Blood and mercy.... because JESUS is the Savior.


JESUS (not me, not you) IS (not is not or isn't really) THE (there's only one and it ain't me) SAVIORin this sense of justification, narrow (not enabler, not helper, not cheerleader). Beginning to understand? I realize you hold to the RCC view, but are you beginning to understand the Protestant view?


In terms of justification, there are two (and only two) places to look/trust/rely: The mirror or the Cross. All world religions (plus Catholicism, Mormonism and some Evangelical Protestants) call us to look in the mirror for justification with SELF as the Savior, but Luther and Calvin (agreeing with the NT) called all to look to the Cross, with JESUS as the Savior (the RCC excommunicated them for insisting that Jesus is the Savior, and the Catholics and a couple of "Evangelicals" have been rebuking the Reformation Protestants here for insisting for this).


Yup. If Jesus is the Savior, then you aren't. I'm not. Not rocket science.



Now, once again, yet another time, to state what has been said 0ver and over (but I know, you don't read much), IF you insist on ignoring the sole and only and exclusive issue of this thread.... if you INSIST on hijacking the thread to some OTHER issue, some DIFFERENT issue, perhaps in hopes of confusing and entangling things in hopes of making you look very big and Christ look very small, in hopes of making yourself the Savior and Jesus pretty irrlevant, in hopes of making your back-patting of yourself seem wise, sure - in OTHER things, cooperation is a factor, OTHER things can be synergistic, in OTHER things there is an aspect of God as HELPER, but this thread is not about those OTHER things, any DIFFERENT things, any OTHER roles that God may or many not have in the lives of pagans and/or the justified. It's about justification. BECOMING His own, ESTABLISHING the different relationship, BECOMING a part of a relationship where Jesus' BLOOD and MERCY reign, where we are covered by the Blood of the Lamb, where there is forgiveness. Like Catholics and Mormons (as well as Muslims and some Hindus), you have simply made yourself very big and Christ small (or even irrelevant), Jesus not the Savior but only an enabler, a helper so that self justifies self.... leading to all the egoism, self-patting-self-on-back that we've read from you, all the Pharisical condemnation of others that we've read from you, cuz you view you as saving yourself by how amazingly good and obedient you are, one who obviously don't need no Savior (just a helper... and some time to get it all perfect).


You are right: The Protestant view is that Jesus did it. "It is finished." JESUS is the Savior (job's taken). Justification (narrow) is the result of God's GRACE, His unconditional love and favor and mercy ("Sola Gratia"), not our own wonderfulness. Yes, Justification (narrow) is accomplished solely and only and exclusively and perfectly by the life, death and resurrection of JESUS CHRIST ("Solus Christus") not by our absolute perfection, our works, our goody-goodiness making Christ irrelevant and a joe. Yes, Justification (narrow) is brought to us via the divine gift of faith (trust, reliance, looking to the CROSS rather than the mirror) ("Sola Fide"). Yes, that IS the Protestant position. Yes, the RC Denomination in 1521 excommunicated Luther for holding that Jesus is the Savior rather than self, and yes the LDS and some modern American Evangelicals have sided with the RC Denomination on this, agreeing with the RCC that self saves self (albeit with a little help).


Now.... if it was permitted to hijack threads, we could change topics to other things, other issues that ARE synergistic, but that's a rule violation. And just confuses things (which is the sole reason Catholics and Mormons try to do that..... to get the focus OFF Christ, OFF the Cross, OFF of the Blood, OFF of mercy.





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[TurtleHare]

but you present a picture that then requires you do nothing at all ever now that you have been justified by faith .

Hallelujah!! There is some sweet Gospel there in that statement and it's exactly what the bible says.

 

[psalms 91]

Hallelujah!! There is some sweet Gospel there in that statement and it's exactly what the bible says.

So wrong and so dangerous. The new is full of commandments for believers, ignore them all you wish at your own peril

 

[TurtleHare]

So . Jesus death on the cross didn't really forgive your sins enough to get you to eternal life?

 

[Josiah]

So . Jesus death on the cross didn't really forgive your sins enough to get you to eternal life?

It IS sad... it IS shocking... but I've been witnessing this, ever more. Some modern American "Evangelicals" siding lock, stock and barrel with Catholicism and Mormonism on this topic of justification (narrow) - returning to Rome and it's "I save myself" view (although less likely than Catholics to note the HELP they get... and less likely to credit Jesus with that than Catholics). Amazing, but we often see some modern American "Evangelicals" rebuking Luther and Calvin and the Reformation just as boldly (if not more so) than Catholics, truly offended by the Gospel, truly offended by the view that Jesus is the Savior (not self).

And note.... as with Catholicism..... little to no mention of Jesus or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness, just an obsession with self and the worthiness and goodness and greatest and largeness of SELF.... I'M obedient! I'M holy! I'M perfect! I don't need no Savior cuz I got ME. I don't need no mercy, just a little help from my friends (Beatle's song playing in the background). We're use to this from Catholics (it's been going on for 500 years, trying to find cause to condemn Luther for holding to JESUS as the Savior) but it's stunning coming from some who claim to be Protestants.

It could be.... as we saw with some Protestants passionate defense of the heresy of Nestorianism earlier here at CH, we're now finding some passionately echoing Semi-Pelagianism and synergism, all to join with Catholics in diminishing Jesus and engrandizing self.



- Josiah




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[TurtleHare]

It's sad but not because we are saying we are right and they are wrong but that they are missing out on the true glory of what the good news entails and their burdens could be lifted. This is why I come to boards to help those who don't see the pureness of what the bible and God are telling His children. Relax. He's got this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's sad but not because we are saying we are right and they are wrong but that they are missing out on the true glory of what the good news entails and their burdens could be lifted. This is why I come to boards to help those who don't see the pureness of what the bible and God are telling His children. Relax. He's got this.

What burdens?

 

[Josiah]

He who insists he has no sins has no burdens. He who needs no mercy, needs no Christ, needs no Blood, needs nothing but a little help from his friends has no burdens. Not when he has self.


But here's the deal..... I don't think anyone can be so dishonest... I don't think anyone can fool themselves so completely..... as to honestly believe in such goody-goodyness in self, such perfection, such obedience and righteousness and love. Eventually, one has to embrace reincarnation or some other ploy in order to evade the reality: self ain't perfect (even WITH help). What a burden.... looking in the mirror at a FLAWED self. I mean, how long can one keep up the illusion needed to beleive self saves self?

There IS an amazing, deep, profound joy and relief that comes from accepting rather than denouncing the Gospel..... in looking to the Cross rather than at self.... in claiming CHRIST'S love and righteousness and obedience rather than trying to keep up the lie about how goody goody I am.... in being LOVED, embraced, forgiven.... all things I deeply, deeply came to appreciate when I found such after leaving Catholicism. I AM His child.... I AM in His mercy..... And yes, that makes me far MORE willing and able now - as a Christian - to love and to live for others (no longer mandated to keep up the lie of my superiority, my wonderfulness, my worthiness, and how better I am that most). The never-satisfied, never-ending game and lie IS a burden. The Christ, the Savior, the Gospel, the Cross, the Blood, mercy - they are what removes that horrible burden, that lie. But Christ has to be large and self small..... Christ has to be the Savior, not me.




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