Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Lamb]

Yep, I answer with I am NOT my own Savior. I do not contribute to my salvation one iota. God doesn't need my participation first in order to save me. I am like a child who relies on a parent. Because of that I can see the full sweetness of the Gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yep, I answer with I am NOT my own Savior. I do not contribute to my salvation one iota. God doesn't need my participation first in order to save me. I am like a child who relies on a parent. Because of that I can see the full sweetness of the Gospel.

Does that mean you participate as much as a rock might?

 

[psalms 91]

Like it or not Christ lays down some conditions for continuing with Him and it has been said that narrow is the way, not broad, not other ways, but narrow, what does that suggest to you?

 

[Lamb]

Does that mean you participate as much as a rock might?

I don't participate in my salvation, I am passive. God does the work.

 

[Lamb]

Like it or not Christ lays down some conditions for continuing with Him and it has been said that narrow is the way, not broad, not other ways, but narrow, what does that suggest to you?

Continuing is different. But that's not the cause of my salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't participate in my salvation, I am passive. God does the work.

So basically you're as active as a rock in your salvation.

 

[Lamb]

Man is spiritually dead until God saves him. Dead men can't choose. Dead men can't reach out. Dead men can't pray.

It's like the original Adam where God breathes new life into us.

 

[Josiah]

I don't participate in my salvation, I am passive. God does the work.

I agree. Which means that JESUS is the Savior..... not the one each of us sees in the mirror.


In Catholicism, while SOME Catholics might (but probably not) give Jesus some role - perhaps the POSSIBILITY MAKER or perhaps HELPER - the Savior remains the one each sees in the mirror. As our Catholic teachers taught us, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what YOU do." [SOME Catholics join with Jews, Muslims and some Hindus to indicate that we can't save ourselves by our OWN strength but need - and get - divine HELP but it's still self being the savior of self]. Many Cathollics seem downright offended and angry when it is professed that JESUS saves - immediately purging that faith and going on and on and on and on about THEIR works, THEIR righteousness, THEIR accomplishments, THEIR goody-goodiness, THEIR merits, THEIR worthiness..... why, they will talk about soteriology and not so much as even mention in passing Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness or anything Christian at all - just how they get gooder each day, how much God admires them, on and on.

But I believe that Jesus is the Savior and thus I'm not (job's taken).



Thanks, Lamm



Pax



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Continuing is different. But that's not the cause of my salvation.

No but it all ties together since it does have something to do with you keeping it

 

[Josiah]

It seems SOME modern American "Evangelicals" have returned to the typical view of some Catholics on this, that while Jesus may perhaps make salvation POSSIBLE or perhaps the Holy Spirit HELPS, it's still self saving self by what self does. But my view is clear: Jesus is the Savior. IS. THE. SAVIOR. NOT part-Savior. Not Helper. Not Possibility-Maker. But SAVIOR (in this sense of narrow justification). Therefore, I'm not the Savior of me. Not in whole, not in part. Not now, not ever. It's not me. It's Jesus.

Of course, when we change to a DIFFERENT topic, when we cease addressing justification (narrow) and move to an entirely different subject (say, sanctification - our lives as Christians), then of course we have a different subject and a different topic. Perhaps in that wholly other subject, that different topic, WE might play a vital and critical role.... There might be synergism involved.... why, lots of things might be different in that different subject because it's a different subject. But we're not talking about different subjects.

Problems (even heresies.... even abandonment of Christianity) can result if we confuse things, entangle things, mix-up things.... such as Law and Gospel, self and Christ, sanctification and justification.... so it is good to be clear. In terms of what is the basis, the cause of justification (narrow), I hold to the classic Reformation view of Luther and Calvin (the one for which Luther was excommunicated): Jesus is the Savior. Not me. He doesn't simply HELP those who help themselves to save themselves..... He doesn't simply OPEN the door to heaven so that WE can get OURSELVES through it..... And there's nothing synergistic about it ("We must do our part.... then Jesus will do His part..... and TOGETHER, WE'LL get the job done being that Jesus is only PART Savior, YOU are the really critical, effectual Savior of yourself"). Now.... if we change topics and speak instead of sanctification (how CHRISTIANS should live, etc.) then yes, everyone agrees on that topic (even Luther and the Pope agreed on all that)... yes THAT is synergistic, yes THAT different subject is progressive, but THAT is a different topic and agreeing on all THAT didn't keep the RC Denomination from excommunicating Luther for teaching that Jesus is the Savior (not me).



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Man is spiritually dead until God saves him. Dead men can't choose. Dead men can't reach out. Dead men can't pray.

It's like the original Adam where God breathes new life into us.

One can be dead in one's trespasses and sins and yet still be able to bury the dead as the scripture says "let the dead bury their dead" but I doubt that a rock can bury it's dead in fact the concept of a rock being able to be dead is absurd is it not?

 

[psalms 91]

Maybe that is the problem that we try to have this narrow view that ignores other important things, Maybe we needto see as the whole rather than a narrow view

 

[MoreCoffee]

Maybe that is the problem that we try to have this narrow view that ignores other important things, Maybe we need to see as the whole rather than a narrow view

I think [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] 's response of a case of doctrine triumphing over holy scripture.

 

[Josiah]

I agree. Which means that JESUS is the Savior..... not the one each of us sees in the mirror.


In Catholicism, while SOME Catholics might (but probably not) give Jesus some role - perhaps the POSSIBILITY MAKER or perhaps HELPER - the Savior remains the one each sees in the mirror. As our Catholic teachers taught us, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what YOU do." [SOME Catholics join with Jews, Muslims and some Hindus to indicate that we can't save ourselves by our OWN strength but need - and get - divine HELP but it's still self being the savior of self]. Many Cathollics seem downright offended and angry when it is professed that JESUS saves - immediately purging that faith and going on and on and on and on about THEIR works, THEIR righteousness, THEIR accomplishments, THEIR goody-goodiness, THEIR merits, THEIR worthiness..... why, they will talk about soteriology and not so much as even mention in passing Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness or anything Christian at all - just how they get gooder each day, how much God admires them, on and on.

But I believe that Jesus is the Savior and thus I'm not (job's taken).



.

I think [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] 's response of a case of doctrine triumphing over holy scripture.

I don't think so. I think it's a case of one's docilic submission to an individual denomination trumping holy Scripture.

And I think that when things are confused, mixed-up, entangled, lumped together - and then a HUGE amount of ego is added - well, it's possible to come up with wrong ideas (even the abandonment of Christianity). Such as when self is confused with God..... law confused with Gospel..... sanctification confused with justification (narrow, both)..... if a lot of egoism is added, if everything is watered down to near nothing.... we can end up with SELF as the savior (or at least part-Savior), Jesus made into nothing (or perhaps just a HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER) as self makes self big and Christ small.

We all agree (and everyone always has!!! Everyone..... always..... has.....) that CHRISTIANS are called to great things (absolute moral perfection, complete love even as Christ loved us from the Cross, absolute and perfect devotion to God, making disciples of all 7.4 billion people, etc., etc., etc.). Luther taught that. Calvin taught that. The RC Denomination in their day tuaght that. NO ONE disagreed with that. And all agreed NO CHRISTIANS can do any of that (or even make process that counts) without the HELP of God. And all agreed that NO CHRISTIAN instantly accomplishes that (we hopefully grow in that). Luther was not excommunicated because he agreed with the individual RC Denomination that Christians are called to much, that the Law still applies to us. Nope. We agreed on that. We still do. So, there's no need for a thread on that topic because no one disagrees on that topic, that topic doesn't divide us, no one questions that point. But this thread is not about that point - so, no, there's no reason to "broaden" this topic to embrace that one - except by those who wish to muddy things, confuse all, mix-up truths, entangle things into a mess, all to make self large and Christ small, all to get the glory on self and away from God.

This thread is about JUSTIFICATION (narrow). BECOMING a child of God, BEING born again, our CHANGED relationship with God. Luther was excommunicated by the individual RC Denomination because he argued that JESUS is the Savior. Jesus IS the Savior. IS. SAVIOR. Not self. THAT was the horrible, horrible heresy that the individual RC Denomination has been crying about for over 500 years.... NOT that Luther was wrong about sanctification, discipleship, the Law (because ALL have ALWAYS agreed on those things!), NO, because Luther was wrong about a different topic, a narrow topic - justification - Luther's horrible, heretical affirmation that Jesus is the Savior. The same one that STILL causes Catholics to recoil in horror, to quickly disagree, to retort that justification is about ME.... it's all about WE must do this .... WE must to that.... that what matters is the works of ME, the accomplishments of ME, the goodiness of ME.

Yes, Scripture teaches Law and it also teaches another truth, Gospel. What it does not teach is the enormously watered-down, mixed up, confused, blended, entangled MESS of Pelagianism/synergism/I-save-me-by-being-wonderful of Catholic justification. What we were taught by our Catholic teachers: "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but YOU gotta get YOURSELF through it by what YOU do." I think in terms of justification (narrow), the Bible teaches that JESUS IS THE SAVIOR.... not the one we see in the mirror. Not wholly, not party. Not now, not ever. We have ANOTHER role.... Jesus has ANOTHER role in the OTHER subject of sanctification (our lives as CHRISTIANS) but that's not the subject of this thread (or pretty much any other since no one disagrees on that and the RC Denomination didn't split itself over that and the RC Denomination didn't excommunciate anyone over that).



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't think so. I think it's a case of one's docilic submission to an individual denomination trumping holy Scripture.
...

Yes, that's what I said. It is a case of doctrine triumphing over scripture. I was referring to your doctrine. You probably meant to say it was something else.

 

[psalms 91]

All I say is you need to look at it in its entirety rather than a narrow view which of course gives you a skewed view

 

[Josiah]

I don't think Scripture is confused. I think some denominations have gotten themselves confused by their insistence on watering down BOTH Law and Gospel, by adding an enormous amount of self and self-importance, and then by confusing, twisting, blending, entangling law AND Gospel, self and God, sanctification and justification..... all making Christ small and self large, shifting things (perhaps absolutely) from the Cross to the mirror (as witnessed by their ability to go on and on and on and never even mention Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy - just a constant din of how goody they are or will be). Then such denomination mandates its members docilicly swallow WHATEVER it itself individually says cuz it does. THAT, I think, trumps Scripture.

I think Scripture teaches Law AND Gospel, not the watered-down, slopped, blended, confused, entangled MESS that too often comes from Catholics (and also Mormons and sometimes others).... to make Christ pretty insignificant and SELF everything..... to make the real issue the one self sees in the mirror (and his amazing goodiness) rather than the Blood, the mercy, the SAVIOR on the Cross.

This is why the individual RC Denomination excommunicated Luther an split itself - because Luther credited JESUS with being the Savior (in this sense of justification narrow) rather than SELF, that in this regard he directed people to the Cross rather than the mirror, that he called on people to trust God's mercy, God's blood, God's Savior, God's Cross rather than the goody-goodiness of the Pharisee.... that he taught SOLA gratia - SOLUS Christus - SOLA fide.... Soli DEO glory! When Luther should have been trusting in the one he saw in the mirror.... Again, your persistent determination to change subjects in order to confuse won't work: We agree on sanctification and the Law and always have.... all do.... no need to TRY to change topics to one we all have always agreed on in hopes of entangling and confusing things, destroying all. In my view, Jesus is the Savior (in this sense) which means that I'm not. I KNOW this offends Catholics (and some others), I know they will decry it and recoil passionately from this, but I actually believe THIS is the central teaching of the CHRISTIAN religion.



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

Who is running the verbs?

 

[Lamb]

all making Christ small and self large, shifting things (perhaps absolutely) from the Cross to the mirror (as witnessed by their ability to go on and on and on and never even mention Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy -

I was thinking the same thing, that they have a weak God instead of one who loves us so much that He died for us and our sins are forgiven. I'm not saying they have a different God, but they've reduced Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... I KNOW this offends Catholics (and some others), I know they will decry it and recoil passionately from this, but I actually believe THIS is the central teaching of the CHRISTIAN religion.
Thank you.
- Josiah

Amazing