Healing in the atonement?

tango

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I've come across a few people recently who believe that healing is in the atonement. In other words they believe that healing is an automatic right, citing Is 53:5 ("by his stripes we are healed") and occasionally Ps 103:2-3 ("Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases"). They appear to believe that any form of illness or imperfect health can be addressed by breaking off generational curses, written curses, spoken curses and so on.

The trouble is that Scripture just doesn't seem to support that theology if taken as a whole. David did what was right in the Lord's eyes, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite (1Ki 15:5). After the issue with Bathsheba and Uriah the prophet Nathan told David that his son, the son Bathsheba bore, would die. And, sure enough, the child died. It seems reasonable to conclude that David wrote the psalm after the issue with Bathsheba because if he only deviated from God's will once in his life he would only have had the one specific iniquity to forgive, and yet having watched his son die he had seen God clearly not heal the child's diseases. So the psalm doesn't seem to support this particular interpretation, if read in context.

Looking at what Paul wrote in Rom 8:23 about how we are "eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body", and what John wrote in Rev 21:4 about how in heaven there will be "no more death, no more sorrow, no more pain, no more crying" it seems likely that the only guarantee of healing comes when we receive our glorified bodies in heaven. That's not to say God doesn't heal today - I don't think you can pull that out of Scripture either without torturing the context - but to claim that it is always God's will to heal and the healing can be claimed as if it were a money-off coupon seems to be a very destructive theology.

If it is always God's will to heal, as these people claim, how do they explain the times God quite clearly chooses not to heal? Some blame the person who wasn't healed (which has a parallel to Job's "friends" and how God put them back in line towards the end of the book), while some seem to adopt what might be called a "fruit machine theology" where they put in enough prayers and then seize on the slightest improvement in a single person as "proof" that their proclamations were effective. If someone makes a bold declaration that another person is totally healed and that person then gets a little bit better while in hospital, you'd really have to stretch the definition of "miracle" to make it count.

Just for good measure, even within the New Testament we see illness. For example, Paul wrote of the "thorn in his flesh" (2Co 12:7), and told Timothy to drink a little wine for "his stomach's sake and his frequent infirmities" (1Ti 5:23). Presumably if healing is something that can just be claimed Paul would have known about it, so why didn't he just claim Timothy's healing?

Sadly if people have been promised that God will heal them (no doubt about it, God's will is always to heal) and then they are not healed it is hard to see it doing anything other than progressively weakening their faith. If they are then told that the reason they aren't healed is because they lack faith it is easy to see how they can come to conclude that God will only heal them if they achieve the impossible, which falls right back into a works-based theology. It's also easy to see how people would lose their faith completely if it becomes clear that God is going to ignore them until they achieve the impossible and truly believe something that they struggle to believe.
 

onlyme

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I agree; where Malachi says that the 'sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings'; clearly the meaning is moral and spiritual healing.
 

MoreCoffee

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If physical healing were in the atonement then why do Christians catch cold, flu, or serious illnesses? I think that the idea is wrong.
 

psalms 91

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If it isnt in the atonement then how about Isiah 53? We all agree that this is Jesus and I think we all agree that it is Gods will to heal and that Jesus healed those who met Him,did He not?
 

onlyme

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If it isnt in the atonement then how about Isiah 53? We all agree that this is Jesus and I think we all agree that it is Gods will to heal and that Jesus healed those who met Him,did He not?
The context explains itself: transgressions, iniquities.
 

psalms 91

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arent you forgetting a couple of words?
 

MoreCoffee

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arent you forgetting a couple of words?
But christians still get colds and flu and other diseases as well as injuries and none of that could happen of healing were in the atonement right now.
 

psalms 91

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Really? Then how about sin? How about satan working in the world. That is like saying that because God created the earth that if it isnt perfect then God must want it messed up and that just isnt true any more than saying that healing isnt for today
 

MoreCoffee

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Really? Then how about sin? How about satan working in the world. That is like saying that because God created the earth that if it isnt perfect then God must want it messed up and that just isnt true any more than saying that healing isnt for today
Sin is proof that the atonement isn't done yet. It is finished for the Lord and it is still a work in progress for us.
 

psalms 91

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Sin is proof that the atonement isn't done yet. It is finished for the Lord and it is still a work in progress for us.
And always will be fgor us and there you have answered your own question about healing and why sometimes it does not work or are you saying that God isnt capable?
 

tango

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If it isnt in the atonement then how about Isiah 53? We all agree that this is Jesus and I think we all agree that it is Gods will to heal and that Jesus healed those who met Him,did He not?

Jesus healed people who met him, but he is only recorded healing one man at the Sheep Gate Pool in John 5.

I don't see how the idea that God doesn't heal today can be pulled out of Scripture without torturing the context but to claim that it is always God's will to heal seems to fly in the face of just about every human experience. If it were always God's will to heal, why don't the preachers who preach such a message put the medical industry out of business overnight by merely pronouncing everybody in hospital healed? I suspect most people would gladly make a nominal donation to a ministry for healing if it meant they didn't have to worry about health insurance, copays etc, not to mention the stress of actually being hospitalised.

Also, if it is always God's will to heal wouldn't it be so much easier to just eliminate sickness completely? It makes God look like some kind of half-wit who needs to be periodically prodded to get a grip on things if his people get sick and have to remind him that he's supposed to banish their illnesses.
 

tango

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Really? Then how about sin? How about satan working in the world. That is like saying that because God created the earth that if it isnt perfect then God must want it messed up and that just isnt true any more than saying that healing isnt for today

I'm not saying healing isn't for today. I thought that was pretty clear in my opening post. My point is that healing isn't guaranteed in this world.

Some people like the argument that essentially goes "there is no sickness in heaven, therefore sickness has no place on earth". Which is a seductive philosophy but doesn't have to be drawn out very far before it breaks. There is no death in heaven either but there is death on earth. The reason there is death on earth is because God decreed it would be so, when he cursed Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit. Likewise there is no sorrow and no pain in heaven but those things are very real on earth. Unless we want to claim there is going to be some kind of nirvana this side of heaven where sickness, death, pain, sorrow, tears etc are banished from the earth it makes little sense to pull sickness from the mix in isolation.

Also, as I mentioned in the opening post, if we were guaranteed freedom from sickness in this life why did Paul tell Timothy to "take a little wine" for his "frequent infirmities" rather than just pronouncing his healing?
 

MoreCoffee

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And always will be fgor us and there you have answered your own question about healing and why sometimes it does not work or are you saying that God isnt capable?
In the resurrection atonement will be complete for us.
 

psalms 91

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tango

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Agreed but until then we trust God for everything including healing

I don't think anyone has disputed that, the issue is whether God will always heal or not. Do you believe God's will is always to heal without exception?
 

psalms 91

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His will, yes. Did not Jesus heal all who came to Him except in His home area and what was the reason given for that? It was unbelief and no I am not saying that all who do not get healed have unbelief but it is one reason why it doesnt work.
 

tango

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His will, yes. Did not Jesus heal all who came to Him except in His home area and what was the reason given for that? It was unbelief and no I am not saying that all who do not get healed have unbelief but it is one reason why it doesnt work.

So how do you explain the thorn in Paul's side, Timothy not being healed, and the fact Jesus is only recorded as healing one person at the poolside in John 5 when he could have healed everybody there just as easily?
 

psalms 91

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So how do you explain the thorn in Paul's side, Timothy not being healed, and the fact Jesus is only recorded as healing one person at the poolside in John 5 when he could have healed everybody there just as easily?
Do you remember the pool at Bethesda and what was supposed to happen there? The first one in was healed, and Jesus made him the first. As to why the others, dont know. QAs to Pauls thorn we dont know whatit was we do know that he was buffeted by a messanger from satan and what did God say about it? Did he not allow it to keep him humble as His grace was sufficent? Timothy having stomach trouble is not an uncommon thing and a little wine helps to settle, sort of shoots the no alcohol that some believe in.
 

tango

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Do you remember the pool at Bethesda and what was supposed to happen there? The first one in was healed, and Jesus made him the first. As to why the others, dont know. QAs to Pauls thorn we dont know whatit was we do know that he was buffeted by a messanger from satan and what did God say about it? Did he not allow it to keep him humble as His grace was sufficent? Timothy having stomach trouble is not an uncommon thing and a little wine helps to settle, sort of shoots the no alcohol that some believe in.

Jesus healed the man without putting him in the water, and he isn't recorded as having healed anyone else. The man had been there a long time because other people got to the pool first. So either he was the last one left, or Jesus is recorded as healing one person who needed it but not others.

Paul was certainly kept humble by the thorn in his flesh - he wasn't healed of it. Timothy wasn't healed of his stomach troubles and his "frequent infirmities". So if Paul and Timothy weren't guaranteed healing why do we think we are today? If it was God's will to heal them but they were doing something wrong it doesn't bode very well for us today to be healed.
 

MoreCoffee

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Agreed but until then we trust God for everything including healing
Every good gift and all graces come from God so all healing and all good things are his gifts yet they are not a special sign that the faithful alone enjoy, all people receive healing mercies from God and the ministrations of doctors work equally for sinner and saint. The atonement is effective for the faithful who endure in faith until the end it is not effective for the wicked so if healing were in the atonement then either the wicked would not heal when sick or wounded or the faithful would never get sick or be wounded. Experience shows that neither of these things is true. Both the faithful and the wicked can be wounded and both fall ill. So the claim that physical healing is in the atonement is shown by experience and by holy scripture to be incorrect.
 
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