Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Stravinsk]

No such need. Both agree that Jesus is the Savior, not me, not you.

Did Jesus the Savior say this:

Matthew 19:17 ?

Did He say this:

Revelation 12:17
Revelation 14:12

?

 

[psalms 91]

It is Christs works but we also must have works, if not then our faith nis in vain

 

[Josiah]

Did Jesus the Savior say this:

Matthew 19:17 ?

Yes. The Book of Matthew teaches that Jesus is the Savior. No, Matthew 19:17 does not teach that justification (narrow) is achieved by we and thus Jesus is irrelevant and not the Savior cuz we save ourselves.

Did He say this:

Revelation 12:17
Revelation 14:12

?

NOTHING remotely indicating that Jesus is not the Savior but rather we each save ourselves.

 

[Stravinsk]

Yes. The Book of Matthew teaches that Jesus is the Savior. No, Matthew 19:17 does not teach that justification (narrow) is achieved by we and thus Jesus is irrelevant and not the Savior cuz we save ourselves.







NOTHING remotely indicating that Jesus is not the Savior but rather we each save ourselves.

Matthew 19:17 - in this verse clearly says that to enter life, one must keep the commandments. You can apply words like "justification", "sanctification" or anything else you like - but you can't escape from the verse. Perhaps Jesus was just talking to Himself not giving others instruction? His words are clear.

The verses in Revelation indicate the servants of Jesus are keeping the commands. They aren't saying stuff like "I'm saved because I believe 'Jesus is Lord' and He died on a cross and was risen to life" - no they aren't saying that - they are described by how they keep the commands.

This is why I say people who are heavy into Pauline Theology ought to dump Matthew and Revelation from their bibles. Not that it would be good for them, but at least those pesky references wouldn't be there to poke at Saul/Paul's "grace alone" theology.

 

[TurtleHare]

If you could distinguish between what is written as the law and what is written as the gospel it would be super easy to figure this out and see that the rich man was asking Jesus how to enter heaven yet he was rich and asked what good thing HE could do and Jesus being Jesus gave the biggest clue of all when he replied that there is only one who is good. But then Jesus gave the man law since he wanted to try to work his way to heaven but we know that it is Jesus' good works that get us there because he is the lamb pure and holy.

 

[Josiah]

Matthew 19:17 - in this verse clearly says that to enter life, one must keep the commandments. You can apply words like "justification", "sanctification" or anything else you like - but you can't escape from the verse. Perhaps Jesus was just talking to Himself not giving others instruction? His words are clear.

Justification mandates that we be PERFECT. "You must be perfect as God is perfect" (Matthew 5:48), that we be HOLY exactly as God Himself is holy. "Be holy as God is holy" (Leviticus 20:26, 1 Peter 1:16). The LAW demands such. I have never ignored the Law or watered it down. The Law demands absolute, perfect righteousness and love from conception to death with NO exceptions in thought, word or deed. And if you desire to strip Christianity of Christ and the Gospel.... if you desire to strip Scirpture of grace and mercy... if you desire to eliminate the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb.... then yup, you are absolutely correct: either you are PERFECT and HOLY as God Himself or you are not. Pretty simple.


Of course, you have this reality (over and over and over): "Everyone sins" (First John 3:4), "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned" (Romans 3:23). Thus, if you chose Option B (looking in the mirror rather than the Cross, appointing SELF the Savior rather than Jesus) then what you see and rely upon is a sinner. Not a Savior. "By works shall no one be justified" (Galatians 2:16), "If justification were through our keeping the law then Christ died for no purpose" (Galatians 2:21). "No one will be justified in God's sight by works (Romans 3:20).


But I disagree with you that two books of the Bible have done that (the two books being Matthew and Revelation). I think those books DO include another truth - the Gospel. Mercy. Unconditional love. Forgiveness. Salvation. Justification (narrow). "Being found IN CHRIST, not having a righteousness of my own" (Philippians 3:9). "Christ saved us not because of deeds done by us but because of His own mercy" (Titus 3:5).


Being a Christian, I believe Christ is the Savior (and thus, I'm not. Not now, not ever. Not fully, not partly). "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 6:23). "For by grace you have been saved because of faith, and this is not your own doing but it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).


Now... of course, those who are justified (narrow sense), who thus are Christians.... still have the Law. Not the watered down stuff legalist substitute so that they can claim to fulfill it and thus pat self on the back and belittle Jesus and the Cross, but the real Law. PERFECTION. Perfect righteousness, perfect love. And yes, while Christians do not fulfill that Law (SAINT Paul calls himself the "CHIEF of sinners"), while Christians stand in constant, contineous NEED of MERCY, nonetheless, morality (albeit not perfect) and love (albeit not perfect) ARE to be marks of a Christian.


However, having the MARKS of who IS Christian is not how one becomes a Christian - it is the marks of one who IS Christian. "'For God is at work in you (CHRISTIANS, JUSTIFIED ONES), both to will and to work for God's good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). "Not that I'm perfect but I press on because Christ has made me His own" (Philippians 3:12-14) So yes, becoming a Christian doesn't eliminate the Law - but we are not looking in the mirror for justified but to the Cross, we are not relying on our absolute, constant perfection for justification but to mercy, to the Blood.


I agree.... justification does not eliminate the law, but nor does the law eliminate justification. It's Law AND Gospel. But not both watered down with oceans of water, then confused, entangled, twisted, blended so that neither is either just we just have exited Christianity and have embraced a form of Islam. Or returned to the Pharisical Judaism of Jesus' day. CHRISTIANS are those who look to the Cross, to Mercy, to the Blood of the Lamb for justification, who embrace and trust in the GOSPEL (and yes, the two books you reference DO embrace that). And they do not forsake the Law, they "press on to make perfection our own" - perfect holiness, perfect righeousness, perfect love. But we don't rely on SELF for our justification ("If we could keep the law then Christ died for no purpose"), we trust in Christ.... the Savior, the Lamb, the Cross, the Blood.... mercy, grace, forgiveness, love.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[Lamb]

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Christ obeyed the Law perfectly and in my baptism I have been clothed in Christ's righteousness. This is why I do not have to follow the Law for salvation because Christ covers me.

 

[Alithis]

Raise of hands, how many here have said go out and sin?

to know what is right and not do it is sin .

its not always about what we do .. it is ,for us , what we do not do .. a tree that bears fruit is known by the fruit is bears what sort of tree it is .
if we do not bear fruit (which means to increase ..one becomes 2 two become 4 etc ) we are then cut off as branches even thouh the branch that was grafted in was grafted in because ..it was justified by faith . yet we see the lord jesus telling us plainly that that same branch wil be cut off if it is not then fruitful .

we are justified by faith and made the children of GOD ..that means we are children of righteousness goodness and obedience
.. we can claim to be justified all we want ..but if we are not walking on obedience to God then we show we are not HIS children .for it is the children of the world that walk in disobedience , not the children of God .
we must each do what the lord is telling us to do -for if we only hear but do not do.. we are self deceived

 

[MoreCoffee]

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Christ obeyed the Law perfectly and in my baptism I have been clothed in Christ's righteousness. This is why I do not have to follow the Law for salvation because Christ covers me.

I prefer to think of incorporation into Christ rather than of being clothed with Christ but both forms of language are used in the holy scriptures and the core idea is that Christians are answerable to the Lord Jesus Christ who commanded them to love their neighbour as themselves and God with all their mind, strength, and spirit so for Christians love is the whole of the law and external rules about diet, sacrifices, and so forth do not stand between them and God. Nevertheless the faithful are called to live their lives in communion with the Lord Jesus Christ and not to succumb to sin and temptations to sin so one is made righteous both by the work of Christ and becoming like Christ - there really is no disjunction between the righteousness of Christ and the work of God in the faithful making them righteous in fact.

 

[Alithis]

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Christ obeyed the Law perfectly and in my baptism I have been clothed in Christ's righteousness. This is why I do not have to follow the Law for salvation because Christ covers me.

?who said you have to folow the law .. we are to hear his voice and follow JESUS - he is our law now .. the law of the spirit of Life in christ Jesus .
we are to learn to be like him and to do as he did .. and more .
is going to a meeting once (maybe twice a week ) the limit of being like him and doing what he did ? it is not even what he did . the only time he is found in meeting houses was to preach the gospel (in opposition to what the meeting houses taught ) to them and to heal the sick .. the rest of the week he was traveling every day ,every where ,healing the sick and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God ..

it amazes me how folks say they belong to such and such a church and attend such and such a service ... and consider themselves obedient to chrsit jesus ! he never did that nor told us to do that . so how is it obedient and to whom .. ?
he said we were to be his deciples .. one who is learning to be like thier master and do what he does . heal the sick, preach the gospel ,baptise in his name ,drive out demons ,raise the dead, make more deciples ...(fruit ) ..

if folks have been sitting in a building for an hour or two on a sunday and that is the summary of thier discipleship .. (apprenticeship) that is tragic .. i would liken it to an "apprentice electrician" who started out being asked to make the coffee and 10 years later ..he is an expert coffee maker and still hasn't learned to install or repair wiring ,still doesnt know how to bring power to the light bulb so its still dark at night . -this is the fault of both the apprentice and those whose commission it is to train ..

if the summary of what your church has taught you in 5 or 10 (or more )years ,is to recite recitals , sit in a seat and sing a song and go home feeling "justified " - then your church has utterly failed you and you have failed to seek God to learn .

we are justified by faith nd made the children of God .. do you know what children of God do ? ..look at Jesus - the first born

 

[MoreCoffee]

?who said you have to follow the law ..

Pay close attention to some of the posts in CH and you'll see that some do advocate adherence to the law about clean & unclean foods and teach that adhering to it is a moral obligation thus implying that eating pork and so forth is a sin. Some posts teach that the faithful need to keep the feasts of the old covenant as a religious observance that binds the conscience as well as the will so if you break the seventh day Sabbath or fail to observe passover on the correct (rabbinically determined) day then you are disobeying God's commands and hence are sinning. Some promote spelling Jesus name as Yeshua implying that there is something inferior about the spelling Jesus and something inherently superior about spelling it as Yeshua. There is, it seems, some pressure to make Christianity more and more like Rabbinic Judaism. A few give clear indications that they reject the Christian teaching of the incarnation and instead promote alternatives that are inherently Nestorian thus separating the human nature of the Lord from his divine nature and some appear to have misgivings about the doctrine of the most Holy Trinity. So beware, there are those who say follow the law and their teachings need to be very carefully weighed in the balance to see if they are speaking the truth or if they are promoting error.

we are to hear his voice and follow JESUS - he is our law now .. the law of the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus .
we are to learn to be like him and to do as he did .. and more .
is going to a meeting once (maybe twice a week ) the limit of being like him and doing what he did ? it is not even what he did . the only time he is found in meeting houses was to preach the gospel (in opposition to what the meeting houses taught ) to them and to heal the sick .. the rest of the week he was travelling every day ,every where ,healing the sick and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God ..

it amazes me how folks say they belong to such and such a church and attend such and such a service ... and consider themselves obedient to Christ Jesus ! he never did that nor told us to do that . so how is it obedient and to whom .. ?
he said we were to be his disciples .. one who is learning to be like their master and do what he does . heal the sick, preach the gospel ,baptise in his name ,drive out demons ,raise the dead, make more disciples ...(fruit ) ..

The holy scriptures do urge the faithful to attend the regular meetings of the church. That is said in Hebrews chapter ten. "Let us be concerned for each other, to stir a response in love and good works. Do not absent yourself from your own assemblies, as some do, but encourage each other; the more so as you see the Day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25) It is significant that the next verse in the letter to the Hebrews warns: "If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment." (Hebrews 10:26-29) So be careful not to neglect the assemblies of the faithful and do not teach that it is unimportant for Christians to attend them.

if folks have been sitting in a building for an hour or two on a Sunday and that is the summary of their discipleship .. (apprenticeship) that is tragic .. i would liken it to an "apprentice electrician" who started out being asked to make the coffee and 10 years later ..he is an expert coffee maker and still hasn't learned to install or repair wiring ,still doesn't know how to bring power to the light bulb so its still dark at night . -this is the fault of both the apprentice and those whose commission it is to train ..

if the summary of what your church has taught you in 5 or 10 (or more )years ,is to recite recitals , sit in a seat and sing a song and go home feeling "justified " - then your church has utterly failed you and you have failed to seek God to learn .

we are justified by faith and made the children of God .. do you know what children of God do ? ..look at Jesus - the first born

Obedience is, as you say, more than attending Sunday meetings yet it is not less that that. One ought to attend and to obey in all the other matters that the holy scriptures teach as obligations for the faithful, yet one ought not live in constant fear that any failure in one's obedience will result in irremediable condemnation because the holy scriptures encourage the faithful to live in the Spirit and to put away the spirit of fear that leads to nothing but cruel bondage to sin.

 

[Alithis]

some..suggest it. but few

 

[MoreCoffee]

some..suggest it. but few

Keep the faith and do not absent yourself from your own assemblies, as some do, but encourage each other; the more so as you see the Day drawing near.

 

[Alithis]

Keep the faith and do not absent yourself from your own assemblies, as some do, but encourage each other; the more so as you see the Day drawing near.

assembly .. or gathering together.. is done any where at any time .. and breaking bread together (communion ) is done in having a meal with one another . there simply is not biblical "rule" for how sunday services and denominational building and gathering are run. in the end its mostly a glorified collection plate for $$$$

 

[MoreCoffee]

assembly .. or gathering together.. is done any where at any time .. and breaking bread together (communion ) is done in having a meal with one another . there simply is not biblical "rule" for how Sunday services and denominational building and gathering are run. in the end its mostly a glorified collection plate for $$$$

That's the message of cynicism and nothing more when you say it is all done for the money. Giving is voluntary in the Catholic Church. One need not give anything. Nobody of importance will ever complain if you do not give. Some of the folk in the congregation may occasionally gossip about it but they are not important and their gossip is a sign that they're not seeking the good things that God gives as much as they seek worldly eyes to see them "doing their bit". Do not fear them. And do not absent yourself from your own assemblies, as some do, but encourage each other; the more so as you see the Day drawing near.

 

[Lamb]

to know what is right and not do it is sin .

its not always about what we do .. it is ,for us , what we do not do .. a tree that bears fruit is known by the fruit is bears what sort of tree it is .
if we do not bear fruit (which means to increase ..one becomes 2 two become 4 etc ) we are then cut off as branches even thouh the branch that was grafted in was grafted in because ..it was justified by faith . yet we see the lord jesus telling us plainly that that same branch wil be cut off if it is not then fruitful .

we are justified by faith and made the children of GOD ..that means we are children of righteousness goodness and obedience
.. we can claim to be justified all we want ..but if we are not walking on obedience to God then we show we are not HIS children .for it is the children of the world that walk in disobedience , not the children of God .
we must each do what the lord is telling us to do -for if we only hear but do not do.. we are self deceived

You are talking about sanctification. This thread is about justification in the narrow sense as Josiah has pointed out.

 

[Lamb]

I prefer to think of incorporation into Christ rather than of being clothed with Christ but both forms of language are used in the holy scriptures and the core idea is that Christians are answerable to the Lord Jesus Christ who commanded them to love their neighbour as themselves and God with all their mind, strength, and spirit so for Christians love is the whole of the law and external rules about diet, sacrifices, and so forth do not stand between them and God. Nevertheless the faithful are called to live their lives in communion with the Lord Jesus Christ and not to succumb to sin and temptations to sin so one is made righteous both by the work of Christ and becoming like Christ - there really is no disjunction between the righteousness of Christ and the work of God in the faithful making them righteous in fact.

The distinction is whether people are doing the navel gazing or rightfully stating that it's God at work in them.

 

[Lamb]

?who said you have to folow the law .. we are to hear his voice and follow JESUS - he is our law now .. the law of the spirit of Life in christ Jesus .
we are to learn to be like him and to do as he did .. and more .
is going to a meeting once (maybe twice a week ) the limit of being like him and doing what he did ? it is not even what he did . the only time he is found in meeting houses was to preach the gospel (in opposition to what the meeting houses taught ) to them and to heal the sick .. the rest of the week he was traveling every day ,every where ,healing the sick and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God ..

it amazes me how folks say they belong to such and such a church and attend such and such a service ... and consider themselves obedient to chrsit jesus ! he never did that nor told us to do that . so how is it obedient and to whom .. ?
he said we were to be his deciples .. one who is learning to be like thier master and do what he does . heal the sick, preach the gospel ,baptise in his name ,drive out demons ,raise the dead, make more deciples ...(fruit ) ..

if folks have been sitting in a building for an hour or two on a sunday and that is the summary of thier discipleship .. (apprenticeship) that is tragic .. i would liken it to an "apprentice electrician" who started out being asked to make the coffee and 10 years later ..he is an expert coffee maker and still hasn't learned to install or repair wiring ,still doesnt know how to bring power to the light bulb so its still dark at night . -this is the fault of both the apprentice and those whose commission it is to train ..

if the summary of what your church has taught you in 5 or 10 (or more )years ,is to recite recitals , sit in a seat and sing a song and go home feeling "justified " - then your church has utterly failed you and you have failed to seek God to learn .

we are justified by faith nd made the children of God .. do you know what children of God do ? ..look at Jesus - the first born

Jesus went to temple. Did you forget that?

Any obedience we have is because we have God working in us. Thanks be to God not to me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The distinction is whether people are doing the navel gazing or rightfully stating that it's God at work in them.

Far more serious and far more common is people adopting the view that they are saved no matter what they say, think, or do and also of people adopting the view that they need to become Jewish to some degree in order to be saved. Don't you see it here in CH already?

 

[visionary]

Far more serious and far more common is people adopting the view that they are saved no matter what they say, think, or do and also of people adopting the view that they need to become Jewish to some degree in order to be saved. Don't you see it here in CH already?

Imitators of Him. It is His Faith. You make it sound like the faith of the Bible is unacceptable. IT is a what God gave on Mount Sinai. It is what Yeshua followed His whole life, justifying His purity, His Life, His Way, His Truth. If you can not see Yeshua in the old testament then how can you justify Him in the new testament?