Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

Josiah

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There is only so much justification Yeshua can do, but He also has to be justified, by our actions verifying we have accepted and live according to His justification.

I disagree. I don't view God as impotent, I don't dogamatically proclaim that God "can't."

I also disagree that ultimately we save (justify, narrow sense) ourselves - especially for the reason that God can't do it, only WE can, we being more capable than God. I think that Christ is the Savior, not the one we see in the mirror.




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Josiah

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The separation of Justification from Sanctification is unhelpful distinction

Catholics, Mormons and some others need to confuse the two in order to make self the Savior of self.



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MoreCoffee

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Catholics, Mormons and some others need to confuse the two in order to make self the Savior of self.

Christ is the saviour of all the faithful and it is entirely by grace. But I am sure that you think that you know what the Catholic Church teaches even if what you think is completely wrong.
 

Lamb

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Christ is the saviour of all the faithful and it is entirely by grace. But I am sure that you think that you know what the Catholic Church teaches even if what you think is completely wrong.

If you insist it's by grace, then don't turn it into a Law statement but keep it instead pointing to God always.
 

psalms 91

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Yeshua said on the cross "It is finished". We don't need to do our part to earn anything or prove anything. God gives us faith so that we may believe and He guides us into doing good works and those works help us to show love to God and our neighbor. It's not like Jesus said to the thief on the cross, sorry but you didn't do any good works so you can't be with me because you aren't justified.
We are saved by faith hten if we follow Christ there are conditional promises as well as actions that we are instructed to do, whether we do or not is free will
 

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I just posted a blog in my blog thread about works that I had written 9 years ago :)
 

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Yeshua said on the cross "It is finished". We don't need to do our part to earn anything or prove anything. God gives us faith so that we may believe and He guides us into doing good works and those works help us to show love to God and our neighbor. It's not like Jesus said to the thief on the cross, sorry but you didn't do any good works so you can't be with me because you aren't justified.
Yeshua will have a group He can point to and say Here are they... Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Yeshua.
 

MoreCoffee

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If you insist it's by grace, then don't turn it into a Law statement but keep it instead pointing to God always.

Why? Saint James didn't follow that kind of rule? Aren't you just inventing laws? If saint James can write (under inspiration) that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone why ought I to be afraid to say the same?
 

Stravinsk

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Why? Saint James didn't follow that kind of rule? Aren't you just inventing laws? If saint James can write (under inspiration) that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone why ought I to be afraid to say the same?

Because according to Martin Luther, James Epistle is an "Epistle of Straw" !! Luther was much more fond of Galatians.

You need to remember MoreCoffee - that the Reformation wasn't only an attempt to clarify some doctrine that Luther thought in error - it was also a rebellion against the abuses of the RCC at that time. Luther focuses on "faith alone", which, by necessity, must leave out or minimize an Epistle like James.

At the same time, while the Catholic church may be more accepting of James and works, it also claims spiritual authority over all believers and has, in past times, carried them out ruthlessly. I like the Protestant movement even if I'm not down with Luther's focus, because at least it provides a range of belief and practice that doesn't have to put *certain works* into the curriculum like deference to priests, bishops, popes, kissing their rings, praying to Mary,keeping a Sabbath that isn't Sunday, giving to the already super wealthy Catholic church, on penalty of excommunication or worse. And, I also don't believe the Catholic church or the hierarchy thereof has the authority in the first place.
 

MoreCoffee

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Because according to Martin Luther, James Epistle is an "Epistle of Straw" !! Luther was much more fond of Galatians.

You need to remember ...

Martin Luther's opinions are not too important in my theology.
 

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You guys DO realize straw was important in Luther's day right?
 

Josiah

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Yeshua will have a group He can point to and say Here are they... Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Yeshua.

I don't think so. He will have NO ONE (well, except Jesus) to whom He can say "such kept my commandments." He will have some to whom He can say, "These have faith in the ONE who kept my commandments."

IMO, Jesus is the Savior. Which means I'm not (the job has been taken). If Jesus is the Savior, then I cannot be the Savior (and I believe He is). Thus, salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is something the Savior does, something Jesus does.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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Josiah

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Martin Luther's opinions are not too important in my theology.

Nor in mine. Typically, Luther is brought up by Catholics and non-Protestants.

I bring up Jesus. And point to Him (not to myself). I look to the Cross for justification, not in the mirror. I believe that Jesus is the Savior, not myself. Or Luther. Or the RC Denomination.
 

MoreCoffee

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Nor in mine. Typically, Luther is brought up by Catholics and non-Protestants.

I bring up Jesus. And point to Him (not to myself). I look to the Cross for justification, not in the mirror. I believe that Jesus is the Savior, not myself. Or Luther. Or the RC Denomination.

:bible::clap2::cheer2::amen:
 

Alithis

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and now that we have been justified by faith in him .. what ought we to do ? take the robes of righteousness with which he has clothed us and drag them through the mud ?dishonor him at every step by walking in disobedience and rebellion ? continue in sin and spit at his gracious salvation from sin .. now that we are justified by faith ,, what ought we to do ?


" teaching them to obey all i have commanded you " is what he told the first deciples ..... we are saved in order to live in his righteousness and holiness .. as zechariah prophesied

"That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life."
 

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Raise of hands, how many here have said go out and sin?
 

MoreCoffee

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I don't think so. He will have NO ONE (well, except Jesus) to whom He can say "such kept my commandments." He will have some to whom He can say, "These have faith in the ONE who kept my commandments."

IMO, Jesus is the Savior. Which means I'm not (the job has been taken). If Jesus is the Savior, then I cannot be the Savior (and I believe He is). Thus, salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is something the Savior does, something Jesus does.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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You might find it useful to rip Matthew and Revelation from your bible then. At least the theology you believe in would be more consistent.
 

Josiah

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You might find it useful to rip Matthew and Revelation from your bible then. At least the theology you believe in would be more consistent.

No such need. Both agree that Jesus is the Savior, not me, not you.
 
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