No condemnation ...

pinacled

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I cannot help but think you misread my post. So here it is again so that it can be read without misunderstanding.


The Pharisees were scrupulous about the Law and the Tradition of the Elders yet the Lord Jesus Christ said of them "So then: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you close the kingdom of heaven before men. For you yourselves do not enter, and those who are entering, you would not permit to enter. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you consume the houses of widows, praying long prayers. Because of this, you shall receive the greater judgment. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you travel around by sea and by land, in order to make one convert. And when he has been converted, you make him twice the son of Hell that you are yourselves. Woe to you, blind guides, who say: "Whoever will have sworn by the temple, it is nothing. But whoever will have sworn by the gold of the temple is obligated." You are foolish and blind! For which is greater: the gold, or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And you say: "Whoever will have sworn by the altar, it is nothing. But whoever will have sworn by the gift that is on the altar is obligated." How blind you are! For which is greater: the gift, or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears by it, and by all that is on it. And whoever will have sworn by the temple, swears by it, and by him who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God, and by him who sits upon it. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you collect tithes on mint and dill and cumin, but you have abandoned the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, while not omitting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat, while swallowing a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you clean what is outside the cup and the dish, but on the inside you are full of avarice and impurity. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the dish, and then what is outside becomes clean. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly appear brilliant to men, yet truly, inside, they are filled with the bones of the dead and with all filth. So also, you certainly appear to men outwardly to be just. But inwardly you are filled with hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites, who build the sepulchres of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the just. And then you say, "If we had been there in the days of our fathers, we would not have joined with them in the blood of the prophets." And so you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets. Complete, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers! How will you escape from the judgment of Hell? For this reason, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men, and scribes. And some of these you will put to death and crucify; and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall all the blood of the just, which has been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall fall upon this generation." (Matthew 23:13-36)

7 woes. Reminds me of Revelation.


Let's see if I can remember some old military lessons. Bill might be able to help.
Honor, integrity, respect, courage, are a few words that come to memory from boot,camp.
Adherence to the truth of those words comes from understanding them first. Which in context to binding like the scribes and pharisee. No honor no bond.
Making their converts 2 fold sons of hell/perdition. Unfortunately this is still occurring today.
Many are initiated by means of purposefully searing of the conscience by the teachers or elders.
 
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MoreCoffee

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[MENTION=131]visionary[/MENTION], Jesus was not so scrupulous of the Law as some say he was. He kept it but more in the spirit of it than in the letter of it as the Pharisees were inclined to say one must. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who are not walking according to the flesh. (Romans 8:1)
 

MoreCoffee

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7 woes. Reminds me of Revelation.


Let's see if I can remember some old military lessons. Bill might be able to help.
Honor, integrity, respect, courage, are a few words that come to memory from boot,camp.
Adherence to the truth of those words comes from understanding them first. Which in context to binding like the scribes and pharisee. No honor no bond.
Making their converts 2 fold sons of hell/perdition. Unfortunately this is still occurring today.
Many are initiated by means of purposefully searing of the conscience by the teachers or elders.

I am not really sure how your post relates to the thread's topic or to post #40 to which you replied.
 

visionary

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[MENTION=131]visionary[/MENTION], Jesus was not so scrupulous of the Law as some say he was. He kept it but more in the spirit of it than in the letter of it as the Pharisees were inclined to say one must. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who are not walking according to the flesh. (Romans 8:1)
scrupulous enough to be "without sin"... found "blameless".
 

MoreCoffee

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scrupulous enough to be "without sin"... found "blameless".

Yet free enough to heal on the Sabbath and to instruct the person healed to rise up walk and carry his 'bed' with him.
 

visionary

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Yet free enough to heal on the Sabbath and to instruct the person healed to rise up walk and carry his 'bed' with him.

And that is wrong ... how? That has nothing to do with breaking or bending the Law for that matter.
 

MoreCoffee

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And that is wrong ... how? That has nothing to do with breaking or bending the Law for that matter.

Don't the Sabbath laws prohibit any manual labour? Surely carrying one's bed breaks the letter of those laws or are you going to claim - with the benefit of hindsight and the doctrine of the sinlessness of Christ - that carrying one's bed on the sabbath is fine?
Remember that you are to sanctify the day of the Sabbath. For six days, you will work and accomplish all your tasks. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it: you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, your beast and the newcomer who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all the things that are in them, and so he rested on the seventh day. For this reason, the Lord has blessed the day of the Sabbath and sanctified it.
(Exodus 20:8-11)
 

visionary

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Don't the Sabbath laws prohibit any manual labour? Surely carrying one's bed breaks the letter of those laws or are you going to claim - with the benefit of hindsight and the doctrine of the sinlessness of Christ - that carrying one's bed on the sabbath is fine?
Remember that you are to sanctify the day of the Sabbath. For six days, you will work and accomplish all your tasks. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it: you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, your beast and the newcomer who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all the things that are in them, and so he rested on the seventh day. For this reason, the Lord has blessed the day of the Sabbath and sanctified it.
(Exodus 20:8-11)
And you found Ex 20:8 talking about it being forbidden to heal?
 

MoreCoffee

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visionary

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Exodus 20:8-11 forbids work. Carrying one's bed is work.
Who paid you? What is your purpose to carry the bed? Is it for humanitarian purposes? I can not find when it is forbidden and when did God demand that. Yeshua obviously didn't read that rule nor write it.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Who paid you? What is your purpose to carry the bed? Is it for humanitarian purposes?

Paid? My bed is too heavy to carry. You're off topic.

The man healed on the Sabbath was told by the Lord to get up pick up his bed and walk.
 

visionary

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Paid? My bed is too heavy to carry. You're off topic.

The man healed on the Sabbath was told by the Lord to get up pick up his bed and walk.

And what is the problem with that?
 

visionary

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I can not find when it is forbidden and when did God demand that. Yeshua obviously didn't read that rule nor write it.
 

MoreCoffee

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And what is the problem with that?

I can not find when it is forbidden and when did God demand that. Yeshua obviously didn't read that rule nor write it.

You need a commandment that says "you must not carry your bed on the Sabbath day"? I wonder how many cases need to be specifically documented? Isn't there somebody who said "you can swear by the temple and not be obligated but if you swear by the gold in the temple you are obligated"? Now you're saying "if you carry your bed on the Sabbath you are okay but if you do your paid work on the Sabbath you're sinning".
 
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visionary

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You need a commandment that ways "you must not carry your bed on the Sabbath day"? I wonder how many cases need to be specifically documented? Isn't there somebody who said "you can swear by the temple and not be obligated but if you swear by the old in the temple you are obligated"? Now you're saying "if you carry your bed on the Sabbath you are okay but if you do your paid work on the Sabbath you're sinning".
Where does it say these things you come up with? post scripture commands regarding these rules you have come up with.
 

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Where does it say these things you come up with? post scripture commands regarding these rules you have come up with.

I apologise. I often quote a verse without reference because I quote by memory. I mostly expect that those reading will recognise the quote. So here is the source for the quote about the temple:
"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' (Matthew 23:16)​
 

visionary

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I apologise. I often quote a verse without reference because I quote by memory. I mostly expect that those reading will recognise the quote. So here is the source for the quote about the temple:
"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' (Matthew 23:16)​

And that has to do with carrying a bed?
 

psalms 91

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And that has to do with carrying a bed?
Bottom line Jesus kept the Law and He did not break it or do away with it, so either you are interpreting it wrong or our understand ing is faulty.
 

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And that has to do with carrying a bed?

It has to do with pretending that carrying a bed is just fine because there is no specific case law against it despite there being a law prohibiting work of any kind on the Sabbath day. The Lord healed a man and told him to carry his bed. This happened on a Sabbath day. Your posts have pretended that this is completely unremarkable when it clearly is remarkable. The Woes against the Pharisees give a vivid picture of how insidious their kind of legalism can be.

It all comes from objecting to these posts:
Yet free enough to heal on the Sabbath and to instruct the person healed to rise up walk and carry his 'bed' with him.

Don't the Sabbath laws prohibit any manual labour? Surely carrying one's bed breaks the letter of those laws or are you going to claim - with the benefit of hindsight and the doctrine of the sinlessness of Christ - that carrying one's bed on the sabbath is fine?
Remember that you are to sanctify the day of the Sabbath. For six days, you will work and accomplish all your tasks. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it: you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, your beast and the newcomer who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all the things that are in them, and so he rested on the seventh day. For this reason, the Lord has blessed the day of the Sabbath and sanctified it.
(Exodus 20:8-11)

Exodus 20:8-11 forbids work. Carrying one's bed is work.

Who paid you? What is your purpose to carry the bed? Is it for humanitarian purposes? I can not find when it is forbidden and when did God demand that. Yeshua obviously didn't read that rule nor write it.
It all comes down to pretending that the Law does not forbid work unless it is paid work. Clearly that is not true.
 

visionary

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I think you need to re-read Ex 20:8 and look real closely for this law you speak of.
 
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