Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Lamb]

I don't believe in making the judgement in the first place. To determine who is saved is God's judgement. Men want to know, and it is not their right nor their call. This is the heart of the matter, and what is behind the instruction of Yeshua not to judge nor condemn. People, that is. It is the ultimate arrogance of men to make this determination, which alone is God's.

God sets the measures, not us. Even if the measures are known, it is God's Judgement, not any mans, which counts - for only God sees the big picture of a persons life.

CS Lewis gets this right. One human being cannot possibly know the depth of all the decisions, the influences, the circumstances of another to make any judgement as to their ultimate fate. Only God can. And thank Him for that. He alone knows all, every man and woman's heart- their whole life, and all the choices they made and why.


The servant in the parable is judged by God and found not worthy - it is not ours to set a measure for others, rather, it is a warning to everyone one of us.

The servant found not worthy fell from faith. Only God knows the hearts of who has faith and who does not.

 

[psalms 91]

While it is up to God we are also instructed how to deal with a brother or sister who is in known grave sin, we are not to judge those outside the faith but those within we are instructed to, not gossip, not unproven, but rather what is known for a fact, we are told to judge mattes between brothers as well although I know of no church that actually does that

 

[Lamb]

While it is up to God we are also instructed how to deal with a brother or sister who is in known grave sin, we are not to judge those outside the faith but those within we are instructed to, not gossip, not unproven, but rather what is known for a fact, we are told to judge mattes between brothers as well although I know of no church that actually does that

This is true that we are our brothers' keeper and should correct those who sin so that they don't fall from faith.

With that said, we cannot say that a person is a non-believer because he has committed a sin but we can warn him of the dangers of staying in that sin. Only God knows the heart and we cannot see how God is working within that person to know if faith remains.

We are not justified by our works. That was Christ's job.

 

[psalms 91]

This is true that we are our brothers' keeper and should correct those who sin so that they don't fall from faith.

With that said, we cannot say that a person is a non-believer because he has committed a sin but we can warn him of the dangers of staying in that sin. Only God knows the heart and we cannot see how God is working within that person to know if faith remains.

We are not justified by our works. That was Christ's job.

Totally agree, I find though that many forget that we are to judge within our faith community and use these arguments to prevent such. It is like the homosexual issue, we are to love them but it never says to stay lsilent and accept the sin, in fact it says quite the opposite

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is true that we are our brothers' keeper and should correct those who sin so that they don't fall from faith.

With that said, we cannot say that a person is a non-believer because he has committed a sin but we can warn him of the dangers of staying in that sin. Only God knows the heart and we cannot see how God is working within that person to know if faith remains.

We are not justified by our works. That was Christ's job.

Saint James says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24 KJV)

 

[Lamb]

Saint James says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24 KJV)

Pulling one verse out of scripture and ignoring the others really isn't sound theology.

Even in James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

As you see, even in James we see that it's God saving us not because of our merits. Continue on in James and you see faith without works is dead.

You need to see how the verses fit together and not just pull one out and say LOOK!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pulling one verse out of scripture and ignoring the others really isn't sound theology.

Even in James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

As you see, even in James we see that it's God saving us not because of our merits. Continue on in James and you see faith without works is dead.

You need to see how the verses fit together and not just pull one out and say LOOK!

Well, the next verse says the same thing. "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:25 KJV)

I am sure that you already know that there are many more than two verses that teach that works matter as far as Justification is concerned.

 

[psalms 91]

Well, the next verse says the same thing. "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:25 KJV)

I am sure that you already know that there are many more than two verses that teach that works matter as far as Justification is concerned.

It is by faith that we wish to do the works and therefore it is works that show our faith and are also important to God

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is by faith that we wish to do the works and therefore it is works that show our faith and are also important to God

Faith is linked to salvation in Ephesians 2:8-10. And Faith is contrasted with works of the Law in Romans 3 and other places. James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead and that one is Justified by works and not by faith alone. I am content with what the holy scriptures say. I don't want a doctrine that takes some passages and ignores the others. Faith and works play a role in justification.

 

[psalms 91]

Faith is linked to salvation in Ephesians 2:8-10. And Faith is contrasted with works of the Law in Romans 3 and other places. James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead and that one is Justified by works and not by faith alone. I am content with what the holy scriptures say. I don't want a doctrine that takes some passages and ignores the others. Faith and works play a role in justification.

I think we are saying the same thing

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think we are saying the same thing

I am not sure, people in CH often say things and then a few posts later say what appears to be the opposite.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One teacher in ancient times said "The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist". Love is important in a Christians life.

 

[Lamb]

Faith is linked to salvation in Ephesians 2:8-10. And Faith is contrasted with works of the Law in Romans 3 and other places. James 2 tells us that faith without works is dead and that one is Justified by works and not by faith alone. I am content with what the holy scriptures say. I don't want a doctrine that takes some passages and ignores the others. Faith and works play a role in justification.

Justification can mean different things.

In James, it is not for salvation as the ones it was written to were already by grace through faith saved. In James, sanctification is being indicated.

I believe that this thread concerns the Justification for salvation not sanctification.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Justification can mean different things.

In James, it is not for salvation as the ones it was written to were already by grace through faith saved. In James, sanctification is being indicated.

I believe that this thread concerns the Justification for salvation not sanctification.

Bifurcation is one of those theological debating techniques that never helps anybody. Justification means being made righteous. Some folk like to treat it as if it means "declared righteous" or "accounted as righteous" but the meaning is to be made righteous. The precise means of being made righteous is not specified in the word "justification". For the method one needs to read the holy scriptures carefully. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches that those who obey his commandments are the ones who are his followers and saint Paul as well as saints Peter and James point to works of charity (love) as making one righteous. It is not as if such works are done apart from God. No charitable works are possible without grace from God. So saints James and Paul are not using Justified with two different meanings they are using the one meaning that matters in Christian theology and in the teaching of Christ namely to be made righteous.

 

[Josiah]

Love is important in a Christians life.

Without a doubt, but this thread is not about what CHRISTIANS do (sanctification, narrow sense) it's about JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense) - BECOMING Christian. It comes down to this: WHO is the Savior (in this sense of justification)? Christ or the one each of us sees in the mirror? Where do you look/trust/rely? The one on the Cross or the one in the mirror? You - like virtually all Catholics - are quite obsessed with the mirror, with self, and that desire to make it all hinge on YOU causes an interesting twisting of Scripture away from Christ, away from the Cross, away from the Blood, away from mercy.... and onto YOU. Option 2: ME. Now... I don't think Catholics have stripped Jesus entirely out of the picture.... I think there typically IS a concept of Jesus as Savior (you hinted it at), it's just largely buried in all the emphasis on ME, the goodness of ME, the one self sees in the mirror.





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[MoreCoffee]

Without a doubt, but this thread is not about what CHRISTIANS do (sanctification, narrow sense) it's about JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense) - BECOMING Christian. ...

The separation of Justification from Sanctification is unhelpful distinction that in practise does not exist. No Christian is made just without also being made holy.

 

[psalms 91]

exactly

 

[Lamb]

Justification as Josiah is stating in the OP concerns salvation unto us and that is entirely God's Work. We cannot be our own Saviors because that's not biblical. Works show that we are already His and don't earn us salvation.

 

[visionary]

There is only so much justification Yeshua can do, but He also has to be justified, by our actions verifying we have accepted and live according to His justification.

 

[Lamb]

There is only so much justification Yeshua can do, but He also has to be justified, by our actions verifying we have accepted and live according to His justification.

Yeshua said on the cross "It is finished". We don't need to do our part to earn anything or prove anything. God gives us faith so that we may believe and He guides us into doing good works and those works help us to show love to God and our neighbor. It's not like Jesus said to the thief on the cross, sorry but you didn't do any good works so you can't be with me because you aren't justified.