Churches, Doctrines, and Trustworthiness

Alithis

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Please don't turn Christians into warring against each other. We have disagreements but we are not enemies but instead brothers and sisters in Christ.
what on earth ..? did you read the three posts of presentation ? i found it reconciling in nature .. an objective third party observation . not at all turning it into warring .
 

Alithis

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If I follow that I could make any doctrine seem sound by that standard. It is still not acceptable to deny a Christian of any faith something that the bible tells them to do

I agree ..the overlaying of rules that do not address the "spirit " of the original command is what the pharisees were practicing -so barring the way to life and while not even going there themselves . but you've kind of merged thread topics here bro ... your going to confuse my simplistic mind haha
 

Lamb

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what on earth ..? did you read the three posts of presentation ? i found it reconciling in nature .. an objective third party observation . not at all turning it into warring .

You must have missed this

The evil Empire and its allies sought to subdue the righteous Rebel Alliance,

That isn't speech of reconciliation.
 

Alithis

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You must have missed this



That isn't speech of reconciliation.

haha maybe not but it was not the entire picture it was a likening to starwars -

also not incorrect - i have no problem referring to a man made institution which encourages the practice of idolatry as an evil empire .. but it is you who has highlighted that aspect ..no one else was focusing on it .. well done
 

Lamb

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haha maybe not but it was not the entire picture it was a likening to starwars -

also not incorrect - i have no problem referring to a man made institution which encourages the practice of idolatry as an evil empire .. but it is you who has highlighted that aspect ..no one else was focusing on it .. well done

I work here. It's my job to notice things and as a staffer here on Christianity Haven, war among members is not allowed. That can be taken to other venues. We are to love one another. Correction is fine when done with respect. No wars here please. End of this now back to the OP's topic.
 

Alithis

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we the beleivers in the lord JEsus stand upon his word to his honour and are not called to tolerate the undermining of truth but to live in the truth that is HIM . .
we the beleivers in the lord JEsus do not "war " one with another .
we agree with the word of God .
Sometimes this causes us to be in contention with those who do not agree with his word but seek to impose doctrines of men as authoritative OVER the word of God .
The only solution to that ,is for those who disagree with the word of God- to repent of doing so .

the topic speaks of doctrinal trustworthiness and shows that both side of the issue it refers to (being infant baptism and the indefinable age x -when objective honesty is applied
reach the identical dilemma in regard to a perceived age X
so both parties may be wrong and that warrants further study into the scripture by way of the inspiration of the holy Spiirt -without whom there is no understanding of the scriptures .
 
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Pedrito

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My thanks to Alithis in Post #16 for his expressed appreciation:
great presentation by the way ... though the music score was rather silent
He was correct in his understanding that I was pointing out that both sides of the infant baptism debate (for and against) have an undisclosed “age of X” – the “age of accountability” or “age of responsibility” – and that that concept has no basis in God-inspired Scripture with respect to the Gospel. I have seen knowledgeable, died-in-the-wool Evangelicals admit that.

(Any attempt to invoke the Jewish Bar Mitzvah (or Bat Mitzvah) ceremony in support of that “age of X” concept is invalid. Bar/Bat Mitzvah was and is a formal ritual which ceremonially confers upon the young person (male/female), the full rights and responsibilities that exist within Jewish society (the Covenant People). The Bar Mitzvah (boy's) age is fixed at 13. The Bat Miztvah (girl's) age is either 12 or 13, depending on the branch of Judaism. At that age (those ages), the young person is ceremonially acknowledged to have reached the age where they can take responsibility for their own actions.)


Continued ...
 

Pedrito

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Alithis was correct in his assessment in Post #16 of the thoughts I presented:
and since both parties from opposite spectrums are then presented with the same dilemma ..

we must then consider we are BOTH wrong
Both sides of the “infant baptism” argument have the concept of “the age of accountability” buried in their doctrine set, whether or not they acknowledge it. It is there because it has to be. Yet it has no Scriptural basis. There are grounds therefore for considering it a doctrine of Man.

(Calvinists are the exception, teaching that God has predetermined the future state of each and every individual (Heaven or eternal torture) before he created them. They also teach that Jesus died for, and bore the sins of, only those preselected by God for salvation. That also, I would suggest, is contrary to God's Written Revelation to us.)

If “the age of accountability” has no basis in Scripture with respect to the Gospel, then understandings which include that concept must be thrown into question.


I float the thought that people could (should?) consider letting go of their denominational loyalties, acknowledge personally that “the age of accountability” is not found in God's revelation of the Gospel, and read the Bible carefully and diligently to see what God really has stated.

I'll drop a hint or two on how to do that later on. In case someone might find it helpful.
 

Alithis

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I work here. It's my job to notice things and as a staffer here on Christianity Haven, war among members is not allowed. That can be taken to other venues. We are to love one another. Correction is fine when done with respect. No wars here please. End of this now back to the OP's topic.

you do work here - and though i dont always agree with you ,i need to be submitted to rules rather then the belligerent and disgusting attitude i have been displaying of late ,to my shame and to the detriment of the gospel . And i sincerely apologize to you for that - and henceforth repent of it .
 

Pedrito

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I was a little bemused that Lämmchen (Post #17), Tigger and TurtleHair appeared not to understand the intent of my posts:
Please don't turn Christians into warring against each other. We have disagreements but we are not enemies but instead brothers and sisters in Christ.
Alithis' comments in Posts #21 and #24 were spot on:
what on earth ..? did you read the three posts of presentation ? i found it reconciling in nature .. an objective third party observation . not at all turning it into warring .
it was a likening to starwars
I was spinning a yarn. Presenting something in a format that was designed to be entertaining and attention-getting. It was designed to open people's minds up a little, and allow them to see things from a different perspective. Having a bit of fun, I was – telling a parable, if you like. Jesus told parables. Some were understood and some weren't. Maybe some still generally aren't.


The important point made, was that both sides of the “infant baptism” debate, those that we have heard from (seen from) so far, rely on a man-made doctrine. That being so, the Bible must actually teach something else. God must have revealed something different.

The suggestion is (once again) that people could (should?) consider letting go of their denominational loyalties, acknowledge personally that “the age of accountability” is not found in God's revelation of the Gospel, and read the Bible carefully and diligently to see what God really has stated.


Turning Christians into warring against each other?

Hardly.

Rather, it was inviting those who are willing, to join hands and explore God's Holy Revelation as one.
 

Pedrito

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Faced with so many denominational differences and interpretations, how can someone determine what the real message of the Gospel is?

It is a fair question.

Is there a fair answer?


The primary principle is simply to read the Bible as God had it written. That means reading the Scriptures carefully and with deliberation. Look at ...each verse..., ...each phrase..., ...each word... and ...each passage..., without rushing, slowly. See what they actually say. Note any differences between what they say and what we thought (had been taught) they meant. Note how some of them must be interpreted to line up with the established doctrine you are used to.

Also note any apparent inconsistencies between different verses, passages, etc., and any verses that seem internally inconsistent when looked at closely.

Just doing that should have people scratching their heads before too long.

Keeping a list of passages, verses, phrases and words that seem troublesome, including verses that may contain internally conflicting statements, or that apparently conflict with others, is a great idea. It may all seem confusing at first, because thoughts contrary to denominational doctrine might be encountered. But later on, the things you have noted will mesh with new things you are finding, to form a mosaic more beautiful than you ever could have imagined.

It is definitely worth the effort.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

A subsequent post will contain a few secondary pointers which can help people detect and deal with poor (and sometimes biassed) translation, and the hard-to-shake pre-conditioning we have all been subjected to.
 

MoreCoffee

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Faced with so many denominational differences and interpretations, how can someone determine what the real message of the Gospel is?

It is a fair question.

Is there a fair answer?

...

Yes. There is a fair answer.
 

Josiah

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Faced with so many denominational differences and interpretations, how can someone determine what the real message of the Gospel is?

It is a fair question.

Is there a fair answer?


1. Look to the WORDS - those things formed by black and white letters on the page. As a general rule, the "interpretation" which is the least so is likely the best. Then of course, place it into the immediate context and finally into the context of all Scripture. Beware of, "BUT what this actually MEANS is......" I didn't say dismiss it, but beware of it.

2. Look to the CORPORATE, COMMUNITY view (what Protestants mean by "Tradition"). "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all the the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time" (Lincoln said that, I believe - not Jesus - but there's some truth in that). Look to the HISTORIC understanding, the ECUMENICAL understanding. Look to the Creeds, the Councils. Beware of "But God told ME that what He MEANT to inspire the penmen to write there was _________." "BUT you gotta agree that God only speaks to ME and that there is only one person who is in infallible and unaccountable student and follower, that that's ME and I'M saying......" Whether the "I" and "ME" is one person or one denomination.




Pax


- Josiah
 

psalms 91

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I am curiious how many in here hear from God, the Holy nSpirit concerning the Word and direction in their life. If they are not listening for Gods voice and claim not to hear from Him then I wonder what business they have calling anyone out who does hear from God.
 

visionary

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I am curiious how many in here hear from God, the Holy nSpirit concerning the Word and direction in their life. If they are not listening for Gods voice and claim not to hear from Him then I wonder what business they have calling anyone out who does hear from God.
I say, go one step further and ask God to teach, and then follow His lead. He will take you through scriptures in a way that answers your heart's questions, gives you direction into all truth, and blesses you with a connection with Him that transcends the power of man's authority.
 

psalms 91

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I say, go one step further and ask God to teach, and then follow His lead. He will take you through scriptures in a way that answers your heart's questions, gives you direction into all truth, and blesses you with a connection with Him that transcends the power of man's authority.
Exactly
 

Lamb

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The sure way of knowing we are on the right path is by God's Word. For those who say they listen to that small voice and it isn't in line with God's Word, that isn't from God. It happens all the time and we get so many new denominations that way and heresies. God's Word is always true. Men lie.
 

MoreCoffee

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I am curious how many in here hear from God, the Holy Spirit concerning the Word and direction in their life. If they are not listening for Gods voice and claim not to hear from Him then I wonder what business they have calling anyone out who does hear from God.

Seems to me that the Holy Spirit is present in the Church and that he works to lead and guide the faithful as a community through the holy scriptures and through the sacraments and through the liturgy and prayers of the people. The faithful hear God's voice in the things I mentioned. Private revelations happen and when they are credible enough they are tested by the Church to see whether they are from God. If they are accepted by the Church then the faithful are free to receive them as a message from God but none are compelled to do so since private revelation is not public and binding revelation. It seems that there is too much emphasis on individuals hearing and acting on what is heard and not enough emphasis on the community hearing and receiving or rejecting according the the leading of the Holy Spirit within the community as a whole in your post.
 
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psalms 91

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Seems to me that the Holy Spirit is present in the Church and that he works to lead and guide the faithful as a community through the holy scriptures and through the sacraments and through the liturgy and prayers of the people. The faithful hear God's voice in the things I mentioned. Private revelations happen and when they are credible enough they are tested by the Church to see whether they are from God. If they are accepted by the Church then the faithful are free to receive them as a message from God but none are compelled to do so since private revelation is not public and binding revelation. It sees that there is too much emphasis on individuals hearing and acting on what is heard and not enough emphasis on the community hearing and receiving or rejecting according the the leading of the Holy Spirit within the community as a whole in your post.
All are free to accept or reject but for those who are deaf concerning the voice of God should nort be leading the charge to reject words from God. They should be on their face asking the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth and asking to hear God
 
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