Evangelical Only Ash wednesday -Odins day .. Interesting information regarding the practice

[TurtleHare]

The Old Testament shows a lot of instances of using ash so not sure why you keep attributing it to pagans when the Hebrews practiced it.

 

[Alithis]

The Old Testament shows a lot of instances of using ash so not sure why you keep attributing it to pagans when the Hebrews practiced it.

lets spell it out with the OP shall we . "ash-WEDNESDAY"


Ash wednesday -Odins day .. Interesting information regarding the practice
In the interest of non debate..but the presentation of information to aid in defining truth of scripture from false doctrines..iv listed this under evangelical only.

This practice has no scriptural foundation at all.
The lord Jesus did not observe it or teach it,nor did the apostles.. I think it appears about 1000 years later .and is almost certainly of pagan origin.
Below is an excerpt from one site "among so many" which tell of the custom throughout the pagan world.
....
"The practice of putting ashes on one's forehead has been known from ancient times. In the Nordic pagan religion, placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin. This practice spread to Europe during the Vikings conquests. This laying on of ashes was done on Wednesday, the day named for Odin, Odin's Day. Interestingly enough, according to scoure-Wikipedia, one of Odin's names is Ygg. The same is Norse for the World Ash. This name Ygg, closely resembles the Vedic name Agni in pronunciation.

The Norse practice which has become known as Ash Wednesday was itself, drawn from the Vedic Indian religion. Ashes were believed to be the seed Agni , the Indian fire god. It is from this name that the Latins used for fire, ignis. It is from this root word that the English language got the words, ignite, igneous and ignition. Agni was said to have the authority to forgive sins. Ashes were also believed to be symbolic for the purifying blood of the Vedic god Shiva, which it is said had the power to cleanse sins."...

This sort of thing..these little deviations from truth that later lead many astray into all manner of false doctrine, is why i often make such a big deal over seemingly little things.. After all,the serpant only implied one tinsy tiny lie when he asked..."did God say......?"

A little leaven ,leavens the whole lump.

 

[Brighten04]

The Old Testament shows a lot of instances of using ash so not sure why you keep attributing it to pagans when the Hebrews practiced it.

Sis, just think for a moment. Why did God remove Israel and Judah (Hebrews) from their land? The Hebrews strayed away from our Father by embracing the practices of pagan gods.

 

[Josiah]

lets spell it out with the OP shall we . "ash-WEDNESDAY"

It's only referred to as Ash WEDNESDAY in English speaking countries because in English, that day of the week is called "WEDNESDAY." That's all there is to it. In Germany, the day is referred to as Aschermittwock (literally, ash mid week). Your whole point is silly.


Yes, you can blame the ENGLISH language (not the Roman Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church or any other denomination) for the ENGLISH word for something when folks are speaking or using ENGLISH. Come on.....


Yes, we all know.... the roots to ENGLISH words have pagan origins. ORIGINS. Doesn't make them pagan days or even NOW pagan words but in any case, you seem to be confusing the ENGLISH LANGUAGE with most Christians Christian denominations which permit the use of the English language.


If you desire to abandon all words that have a pagan rather than Biblical origin - feel free (although you won't be able to post anymore; there just won't be words you can use). But it's profoundly silly to "blame" Christian denominations and Christian people for using proper ENGLISH when writing English rather than sticking solely to Hebrew or Koine Greek words which have their origins exclusively in God and not in any non-believing culture or person.





.:banghead:

I think it appears about 1000 years later .and is almost certainly of pagan origin.

The use of ashes to indicate personal mourning, repentance or humility — goes back over three thousand years. Ashes were regarded as a symbol of personal remorse, repentance and sadness.


There are many Old Testament references to the practice. Here are just a few:


Job 42:6 (before 1000 BC) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Dan 9:3 (c. 550 B.C.) "And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes."

Jonah 3:5-6 In the fifth century B.C., after Jonah's preaching of conversion and repentance, the town of Nineveh proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth, and the king covered himself with sackcloth and sat in the ashes.

Esther 4:1 "When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry."


In NO cases were ANY rebuked for putting on ashes. Not in all the many cases in the Bible.


The very early Christian church encouraged the use of ashes for the same symbolic reasons. Tertullian (c. 160-220 AD) wrote that the penitent "live without joy in the roughness of sackcloth and the squalor of ashes." Eusebius (260-340 AD), the famous early church historian, recounted in his "The History of the Church" how a man named Natalis came to Bishop Zephyrinus clothed in ashes begging forgiveness. Also during this time, for those who were required to do public penance, the priest sprinkled ashes on the head of the person leaving confession.



Now, it may be true that other religions and cultures used ashes too but this doesn't make the practice pagan. LOTS of pagan cultures sing. And were singing LONG before Jesus was born but does that mean that ERGO Christians must not sing because singing is ALSO found in pagan cultures (perhaps even before Christians starting doing it)? Of course not, that whole premise is silly, laughable, and embraced by no one.



:banghead:




BOTH points of the opening post are simply absurd.




- Josiah



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[Josiah]

double post





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[Alithis]

i would expect no less from you it has become - .. always rushing ion to promote traditions of men never a haste to promote scriptural Godliness or practice .

So precious are your traditions you would twist scripture to establish them and ..how interesting it is that you wil decry anything to do with law yet when you desire to defend worldly traditions renamed
off to the old testament "law" you run.

Ash for repentance and sorrow ... yet i see no repentance nor sorrow, i see no weeping with fastings ,no lamenting the state of sin destroying lies . if you think the lord is fooled by smearing asj on your forehead when he has said "those who worship him must do so in Spirit and in truth"
and dissecting the topic is not being truthful .. the practice of the ceremony of putting ash on your forehead on wednesday does indeed originate out of germany being strongly influenced by the pagan practice around europe .. it has not origin in the scriptures it is a practice from the worship of false demon gods . the information is there .but still your love for tradition is ,as always , superimposed over the word of God .

oh that people were as passionate about the truth as they are about thier traditions .

if you did as all those scriptures speak ..true repentance of heart then in love for god you would detest even the "appearance of evil" you would desire NONE of these things whose foundation is derived from demonology . you would not simply wash the outside of the cup and rename it but you would seek a whole new cup to drink from .

Ash wednesday -Odins day .. Interesting information regarding the practice
In the interest of non debate..but the presentation of information to aid in defining truth of scripture from false doctrines..iv listed this under evangelical only.

This practice has no scriptural foundation at all.
The lord Jesus did not observe it or teach it,nor did the apostles.. I think it appears about 1000 years later .and is almost certainly of pagan origin.
Below is an excerpt from one site "among so many" which tell of the custom throughout the pagan world.
....
"The practice of putting ashes on one's forehead has been known from ancient times. In the Nordic pagan religion, placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin. This practice spread to Europe during the Vikings conquests. This laying on of ashes was done on Wednesday, the day named for Odin, Odin's Day. Interestingly enough, according to source-Wikipedia, one of Odin's names is Ygg. The same is Norse for the World Ash. This name Ygg, closely resembles the Vedic name Agni in pronunciation.

The Norse practice which has become known as Ash Wednesday was itself, drawn from the Vedic Indian religion. Ashes were believed to be the seed Agni , the Indian fire god. It is from this name that the Latins used for fire, ignis. It is from this root word that the English language got the words, ignite, igneous and ignition. Agni was said to have the authority to forgive sins. Ashes were also believed to be symbolic for the purifying blood of the Vedic god Shiva, which it is said had the power to cleanse sins."...

This sort of thing..these little deviations from truth that later lead many astray into all manner of false doctrine, is why i often make such a big deal over seemingly little things.. After all,the serpent only implied one tinsy tiny lie when he asked..."did God say......?"

A little leaven ,leavens the whole lump.

 

[Josiah]

It's only referred to as Ash WEDNESDAY in English speaking countries because in English, that day of the week is called "WEDNESDAY." That's all there is to it. In Germany, the day is referred to as Aschermittwock (literally, ash mid week). Your whole point is silly.


Yes, you can blame the ENGLISH language (not the Roman Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church or any other denomination) for the ENGLISH word for something when folks are speaking or using ENGLISH. Come on.....


Yes, we all know.... the roots to ENGLISH words have pagan origins. ORIGINS. Doesn't make them pagan days or even NOW pagan words but in any case, you seem to be confusing the ENGLISH LANGUAGE with most Christians Christian denominations which permit the use of the English language.


If you desire to abandon all words that have a pagan rather than Biblical origin - feel free (although you won't be able to post anymore; there just won't be words you can use). But it's profoundly silly to "blame" Christian denominations and Christian people for using proper ENGLISH when writing English rather than sticking solely to Hebrew or Koine Greek words which have their origins exclusively in God and not in any non-believing culture or person.



First point is absurd.





The use of ashes to indicate personal mourning, repentance or humility — goes back over three thousand years. Ashes were regarded as a symbol of personal remorse, repentance and sadness.


There are many Old Testament references to the practice. Here are just a few:


Job 42:6 (before 1000 BC) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Dan 9:3 (c. 550 B.C.) "And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes."

Jonah 3:5-6 In the fifth century B.C., after Jonah's preaching of conversion and repentance, the town of Nineveh proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth, and the king covered himself with sackcloth and sat in the ashes.

Esther 4:1 "When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry."


In NO cases were ANY rebuked for putting on ashes. Not in all the many cases in the Bible.


The very early Christian church encouraged the use of ashes for the same symbolic reasons. Tertullian (c. 160-220 AD) wrote that the penitent "live without joy in the roughness of sackcloth and the squalor of ashes." Eusebius (260-340 AD), the famous early church historian, recounted in his "The History of the Church" how a man named Natalis came to Bishop Zephyrinus clothed in ashes begging forgiveness. Also during this time, for those who were required to do public penance, the priest sprinkled ashes on the head of the person leaving confession.



Now, it may be true that other religions and cultures used ashes too but this doesn't make the practice pagan. LOTS of pagan cultures sing. And were singing LONG before Jesus was born but does that mean that ERGO Christians must not sing because singing is ALSO found in pagan cultures (perhaps even before Christians starting doing it)? Of course not, that whole premise is silly, laughable, and embraced by no one.




Your SECOND point is absurd.


BOTH points of the opening post are simply wrong.




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Interesting information regarding the practice

BOTH of the points of your opening posts have been shown to be absurd and wrong.

The lord Jesus did not observe it or teach it,nor did the apostles.

You have no proof of that and.... so what? There's no proof that Jesus or any Apostle ever sang in a praise band or or attended a youth group meeting or posted on the internet... but....

As long as YOU do things you can't prove Jesus and the 12-14 DID, your point is irrelevant: you don't believe or follow your point, why should we?




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[TurtleHare]

Jesus didn't swim either (he walked on water) so none of us should ever ever swim.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus didn't swim either (he walked on water) so none of us should ever ever swim.

Well that's their insistence. And of course, He never drove a car. And He never posted on a website. So those are forbidden, too. So goes the their argument.

 

[Alithis]

aahh so comes the mocking spirit .challenge the tradition. shift the rock ,thus expose the spirit beneath it .

the points are mere historical facts -these practices we're done in honor of the false gods .
these practices are not taught ,spoken of ,nor even mentioned in set apart scripture ,being the inspired word of God . it remains, that which does not originate from the lord JEsus who is the living word of truth originates from another source

so what you haved asked? so what ?

the lord Jesus said ..if you love me you will keep "MY " commandments ... he did not say if you love me you shall do as thou wilt . such sentiment is from another doctrine in another book of another spirit . not the word of God .
The lord Jesus said we are to become "his deciples " learning to do as HE did and become LIKE our master ... he did not say "follow your own traditions as you make them up and teach all men to do them also ". did he ?
No ,- he said "Go and make disciples (ones who learn to become like the lord JEsus )-teaching them to do(observe) all I have COMMANDED you "

where is his comand to ash wednesday ? where is his command to the tradition of lent ? where is his command to any of the many man made traditions practices and titles ?
they simply are NOT there . So we ask -Whose commands are they then ,from whence do these commands come if they are not given by the HEAD of the body who is the Lord JESUS and NONE other ?
This goes for every denominations pool of traditions bar none .

....
note: the purpose of the thread was to NOT debate but to present the information .those that have no love for the likeness of paganism have had no adverse response ..which speaks very loudly about those who come running to defend it .
when i chose the limitations it did not give an option for" charismatic pentecostal only" ,so i was limited to evangelical only .which i thought would suffice .

obviously it did not .for here you are running to defend what is nothing more then religious traditions of men. oh that you were as passionate about what the lord JEsus HAS directly and unambiguously said .

 

[Josiah]

There are many Old Testament references to the practice. Here are just a few:


Job 42:6 (before 1000 BC) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Dan 9:3 (c. 550 B.C.) "And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes."

Jonah 3:5-6 In the fifth century B.C., after Jonah's preaching of conversion and repentance, the town of Nineveh proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth, and the king covered himself with sackcloth and sat in the ashes.

Esther 4:1 "When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry."


In NO cases were ANY rebuked for putting on ashes. Not in all the many cases in the Bible.


.

the points are mere historical facts -these practices we're done in honor of the false gods .

Prove to us that each of these OT cases of applying ashes was done to honor some FALSE god.

And explain why NONE of these cases were in any sense declared to be wrong.


And note that all of them are BEFORE 1000 AD when you claimed this practice first began. And that Job, Daniel, Jonah and Mordecai were pagans.

not spoken of ,nor even mentioned in set apart scripture ,being the inspired word of God

So, you reject those 4 books of the OT. Why?

does not originate from the lord JEsus

So what? Posting on the internet did not originate with the lord JEsus either - but you don't seem to be condemning that. Do you drive? Swim? Go to movie theaters? Watch TV? I'm sure you don't..... I'm sure you shout to all who do that they are to be repudiated because the lord JEsus didn't originate that practice. And of course, you would never think of posting on the internet.




You made two claims in your op. Both have been shown to be false and absurd. Even you seem to have realized that.... and now are shifting to the equally absurd idea that if some practice didn't originate the "the lord JEsus" we are forbidden to do it - which perhaps is why you condemn yourself for posting on the internet.




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[Alithis]

i don't have to prove what is not .we are not discussing "those " uses of the word ash .we are talking about the practice of "ash-wednesday " and its origins

do try to stay on topic .
id say your passion is commendable but sadly it is only a passion in defense of a non scriptural observance ..as other's have pointed out .the lord Jesus said when you fast .. be discreet or modest ..not showy and "wash your face "
i have also noted that these other uses of when dust and ashes were thrown upon the head in despair of the trouble and sorrow sin had wrought upon the people we do not at all observe in the practice of ash wednesday . the two references are not at all compatible when it come to true repentance of the heart . no "bitter cry " no "deep contrition" " no weeping in repentance of turning away from sin " -quite the opposite . so im wel convinced that the references in the old testament you refer to and the practice of "ash wednesday" are far removed from one another .as far removed as paganism is from Godliness .such is the origin of ash wednesday .

ash-wednesday --the topic , remember ?

 

[Alithis]

Sis, just think for a moment. Why did God remove Israel and Judah (Hebrews) from their land? The Hebrews strayed away from our Father by embracing the practices of pagan gods.

it is of interest that all the days of the week so named by man inspired by the spirit of this world have pagan origin


it is also of great interest we observe an interesting pattern of behaviour in society which correlates to those names ..

there are tight entwining ties between different cultural background but with some variance

we know historically that SUN day is from "sun worship "

monday derives from lunar day or moon day .. but in roman terms it is the day of the god of "commerce " -very interesting then that traditionally it is the day upon which the working week starts up its "commerce " thus our behaviour is effected by the name of a day .


Friday -- Freya's day..means freedom and is also in
Latin dies Veneris "Venus's day" and in
Ancient Greek hemera Aphrodites "day of Aphrodite"
venus and Aphrodites is the god of love and the germanic freya is "free day "

mash them all up in the spirit of this world and you get the day of free love -friday

and the behavioral pattern over the centuries ? - friday is the most anticipated day for the younger to "let thier hair down .. be free from restraint -get drunk and make love ..

and saturday wil make you laugh in this fun observance of worldly behavioral pattern.
from saturn day . Saturn is the Roman and Italic god of agriculture and the consort of Ops. He is believed to have ruled the earth during an age of happiness and virtue.

so the correlation pattern of worldly human behaviour ? - having appeased thier insatiable lusts the night before ..they get up feeling self satisfied (happy) and they do some gardening .. !! haha .

and to continue the pattern . come SUNday they lay around in the sun all day doing as little as possible -
who knew the human race was so predictable in that even the names it gives to days dictates its behaviour.. -interesting in a fun way huh .

here is the list of all 7 heathen day names
Sunday -- Sun's day
Monday -- Moon's day
Tuesday -- Tiu's day
Wednesday -- Woden's day
Thursday -- Thor's day
Friday -- Freya's day
Saturday -- Saturn's day

JUst to finish with,- the stark contrast -
some may be wondering what the bibles names for the days are in the HEBREW .. and wel you make ask

i will give you the english form of the hebrew days names of the days of the week ...

1first day
2second day
3third day
4fourth day
5fifth day
6sixth day
7Rest day .... this is why throughout the scripture you always see it is said .. such and such happened on the 4th day of the week or he rose up on the 3rd day of the week .. through moses the lord gave no preeminence to naming of days .it itself is a heathen practice .

interesting stuff ain't it

 

[Lamb]

If something is done in honor of our Lord and God, then it is no longer considered a pagan practice. If it's not against God then it shouldn't be so quickly condemned. Ash Wednesday is not mandatory by any means. It is not forced upon people. You don't have to participate but you should realize what it DOES mean to Christians; we aren't pagans and don't worship a false god.

 

[Josiah]

This practice has no scriptural foundation at all.

Proven to be WRONG.

It's mentioned all over the OLD TESTAMENT....

You ignore these.... You regard Job and several other OT persons to be pagans and God those in the OT worshiped to be a false god, and you reject at least 4 books of the OT as Scripture, but it's still there: SEVERAL cases of applying ashes..... SPECIFICALLY stated in the verbatim words of the Bible.

The lord Jesus did not observe it or teach it,nor did the apostles..

You have failed to substantiate that (you've not even TRIED to substantiate this claim). But so what? There is no specific statement in Scripture that Jesus swam or drove a car or watched TV or posted on the internet - but you aren't condemning any of those things. Indeed, you yourself do things that (as far as any knows) Jesus NEVER did or taught or observed thus proving that you reject this whole argument and premise. Since YOU reject it, why should we all accept it when it's wrong and to be rejected?

it appears about 1000 years later

So, you believe that Job in the Old Testament lived in 1000 AD? What proof do you have for that?

and is almost certainly of pagan origin

You've offered NOTHING to support your claim. And again, so what? Do you reject all things unless their origin is in Christ or the Apostles or at least some Christian? Do you reject the use of fire? Do you reject cooking? Do you repudiate all who drive a car since you can't prove that JEsus and the Apostles did?

And if this practice can only be pagan, why - in the MANY cases of it verbatim STATED in SCRIPTURE is it never said to be wrong, never rejected, never repudiated?




Your opening post has been proven to be wrong (and silly).

interesting stuff ain't it

No, it's an absurd attempt at diversion (trying to run from your OWN opening post)....

When speaking ENGLISH it is appropriate to use ENGLISH words. Yes, in ENGLISH, most words have non-Christian origins. What has that to do with the practice of applying ashes as a sign of humility? NOTHING. In German, that day is called "Ash Mid Week" because in German, the German name for that day of the week is not named for a pagan god. If it's wrong to use words with non-Christian origins, then why do you use such words?


Your point is nonsense. It's silly to argue that when we are speaking/using English, we cannot use English words and titles. And it has NOTHING to do with proving your point that the practice of applying ashes is not found in Scripture, began around 1000 AD, and IS condemnable because it did not originate with Jesus.




- Josiah



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[TurtleHare]

Maybe a petition should be put in to change the name of the days of the week?

 

[Josiah]

Maybe a petition should be put in to change the name of the days of the week?

Since it's been proven both points of the opening post are wrong, the argument seems to have changed to "it's condemnable to use English words when speaking English." Seems absurd to me.

It's easy: If the opening poster thinks it's condemnable to use words that were not originated by Christians, then he/she should stop using words that he/she can't prove were originated by Christians. Of course, he/she would need to condemn both the OT and NT since no Christian originated any of the words found in either.




.

 

[Alithis]

what part of -"this is about "ash wednesday " and the information its origin dont you quite get -?

if your practice is innocent then there is no need to rush in to justify it .

the facts remain- the practice of ash wednesday is pagen of origin in honor of false demonic gods .that is its origin .

every branch brings forth the fruit of the tree in which it abides .

 

[Alithis]

Prove to us that each of these OT cases of applying ashes was done to honor some FALSE god.

And explain why NONE of these cases were in any sense declared to be wrong.


And note that all of them are BEFORE 1000 AD when you claimed this practice first began. And that Job, Daniel, Jonah and Mordecai were pagans.






So, you reject those 4 books of the OT. Why?






So what? Posting on the internet did not originate with the lord JEsus either - but you don't seem to be condemning that. Do you drive? Swim? Go to movie theaters? Watch TV? I'm sure you don't..... I'm sure you shout to all who do that they are to be repudiated because the lord JEsus didn't originate that practice. And of course, you would never think of posting on the internet.




You made two claims in your op. Both have been shown to be false and absurd. Even you seem to have realized that.... and now are shifting to the equally absurd idea that if some practice didn't originate the "the lord JEsus" we are forbidden to do it - which perhaps is why you condemn yourself for posting on the internet.




.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.


you do this a lot .

here is an example you set up a proposition i did not raise and then asked "so you reject those four books ?" well of course i dont reject those four books based on the proposition you raised and I did not .you just making up stories then rubbishing your own stories ..its dishonest.

the lord Jesus never give the commands that it be taught that we are to observe copy cats of pagan festivals .
and we all know thats the case .

so your simply teaching as doctrine the traditions of men .. and the scripture does warn us againt that .

you need to get over your dislike of me and get back to the scripture as your foundations rather then traditions of men .

 

[Alithis]

In the interest of non debate..but the presentation of information to aid in defining truth of scripture from false doctrines..iv listed this under evangelical only.

This practice has no scriptural foundation at all.
The lord Jesus did not observe it or teach it,nor did the apostles.. I think it appears about 1000 years later .and is almost certainly of pagan origin.
Below is an excerpt from one site "among so many" which tell of the custom throughout the pagan world.
....
"The practice of putting ashes on one's forehead has been known from ancient times. In the Nordic pagan religion, placing ashes above one's brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin. This practice spread to Europe during the Vikings conquests. This laying on of ashes was done on Wednesday, the day named for Odin, Odin's Day. Interestingly enough, according to Wikipedia, one of Odin's names is Ygg. The same is Norse for the World Ash. This name Ygg, closely resembles the Vedic name Agni in pronunciation.

The Norse practice which has become known as Ash Wednesday was itself, drawn from the Vedic Indian religion. Ashes were believed to be the seed Agni , the Indian fire god. It is from this name that the Latins used for fire, ignis. It is from this root word that the English language got the words, ignite, igneous and ignition. Agni was said to have the authority to forgive sins. Ashes were also believed to be symbolic for the purifying blood of the Vedic god Shiva, which it is said had the power to cleanse sins."...

This sort of thing..these little deviations from truth that later lead many astray into all manner of false doctrine, is why i often make such a big deal over seemingly little things.. After all,the serpent only implied one tinsy tiny lie when he asked..."did God say......?"

A little leaven ,leavens the whole lump.

NOTE : In the interest of non debate..but the presentation of information to aid in defining truth of scripture from false doctrines..iv listed this under evangelical only. -i did this because there was no option for charismatic pentecostal only .. ( and im not asking there to be )

HOWEVER note to MODS .. i have now observed that there is an option for "romans catholic OR lutheran OR evangelical .. which means by the sites definition lutheran is not inclusive under evangelical (being that it has its own denominational setting set apart from evangelical )and should not be debating in this particular thread .

i enjoy informal debating ..for sure! but in THIS thread ,for the sake of over all peace ..i desired to AVOID DEBATING