What is Bethel ???

Brighten04

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What is Bethel? :confused: Is it something like IHOP?
 

Alithis

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this is thier web page . http://bethelredding.com/

i honestly dnt know what to make of them . but if you've heard about hype over feathers and gold dust manifestations ....its more then likely this is where you heard it happened
 

Brighten04

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this is thier web page . http://bethelredding.com/

i honestly dnt know what to make of them . but if you've heard about hype over feathers and gold dust manifestations ....its more then likely this is where you heard it happened


Yeah, I have heard about the gold dust and gem stones and feathers.
 

tango

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Bethel is a church in Redding CA that seems to generate a lot of very mixed opinions.

Some say it is a hugely anointed church, others say it's a hotbed of toxic teaching. My view is that it is the latter.

I regard Bethel as being dangerous because, on a first reading, a lot of the teaching from there (specifically from Bill Johnson, their senior pastor) looks very appealing. On a first reading it seems to make sense, he lays out dots and joins them up and all looks well. But on a deeper reading it makes less sense, sufficiently so that it starts to look like a bait-and-switch. If you've got some steps that appear logical, from an apparently reasonable opening premise to a conclusion you might not have expected, the conclusion appears to be reasonable on the basis of the intermediate steps. But if just one of those steps is logically flawed, the reasoning process from there on is flawed and the conclusion is flawed.

One article that sums up a number of my concerns (and presents a few of its own) is here: http://www.echozoe.com/archives/2519#FN4 (I realise some people will find something or other they dislike about the author but I always find it's better to look at the arguments presented rather than shooting the messenger - if someone tells me my zipper is undone it makes more sense to check my zipper than ignore them because they apparently forgot to put pants on at all)

I believe some of Johnson's teachings strays dangerously close to denying the identity of Jesus Christ. References to WHIE are from his book "When Heaven Invades Earth".

A few specific quotes from the book cause concern.

For example, "Part of the privilege of ministry is learning how to release the Holy Spirit in a location" (WHIE, p74). How does one learn to release the Holy Spirit? It's not as if the Holy Spirit is subject to being summoned and ordered around by a mere mortal.

On the topic of Jesus calming the storm: "Jesus was sleeping in the middle of a life-threatening storm. The disciples woke Him because they were afraid of dying. He exercised authority and released peace over the storm. It was the peace of heaven that enabled Him to sleep. And it was that same peace that subdued the storm" (WHIE, P66). Interestingly Johnson didn't provide a footnote with a Bible reference for this one, and looking up the reference (Matt 8:24-26) we see that Jesus rebuked the storm. Curiously Johnson doesn't mention this. If we read on another verse in Scripture we see the men marveled saying "even the winds and the sea obey Him".

Another quote from his book: "Conversely, if it is not free to exist in heaven, it must be bound here. Again, through prayer we are to exercise the authority given to us." (WHIE, p60). This sounds well and good but this teaching is fatally flawed. It is often used with reasoning along the lines of "there is no sickness in heaven, therefore there should be no sickness on earth". It's a fine-sounding teaching but falls way short of the mark. If we read Rev 21:4 we see that in heaven there will be no more sorrow, nor crying, and no more pain. Yet these things still exist on earth and will do until we receive our resurrected bodies in heaven. There is no death in heaven yet there is death on earth because God decreed it would be so when he drove Adam and Eve out of Eden. There is no sin in heaven but it is clearly absurd to argue that we could eliminate sin from the earth, especially given the text of the Revelation about the rise of the beast.

Johnson further argues, on the topic of God making us uncomfortable, "While few would admit it, the attitude of the Church in recent days has been 'If I'm uncomfortable with something, it must not be from God'. This attitude has given rise to many self-appointed watchdogs who poison the Church with their own fears. Hunger for God then gives way to fear of deception. What do I trust more, my ability to be deceived or His ability to keep me? And why do you think He gave us the Comforter? He knew His ways would make us uncomfortable first." (WHIE, p83). It's true to say that it's very easy to reject things that challenge us (whether theological or secular) - cognitive dissonance is a well known phenomenon and most people don't like having their worldview shaken. But it's not true to say that anything that makes us uncomfortable must be from God. It's perfectly fair to say that we shouldn't reject things just because we dislike them but the way this argument is presented is extremely dangerous. Firstly the implication is that things that make us uncomfortable are of God (which isn't necessarily so - I personally feel uncomfortable when around occult material which obviously isn't from God). Secondly the argument "What do I trust more, my ability to be deceived or His ability to keep me?" is fatally flawed. "God won't let you be deceived" seems to be a common theme among people with bad teachings, presumably because it encourages people to turn off their thought processes and accept what is on offer. When Jesus warned of false Christs and false prophets, Paul wrote "test all things" to the Thessalonians (1Th 5:21) and praised the Bereans for "searching the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11), John wrote "do not believe every spirit but test the spirits" (1Jn 4:1) it's worrying to see someone effectively saying "no need to test, God won't let you be deceived".

I need to look up some references in his book for my next point, which I believe is more serious than these.
 

tango

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An interesting read from Beni Johnson's blog. Beni Johnson is Bill Johnson's wife. This is taken from the page http://www.benij.org/blog.php?id=1

One morning as we were driving up over Tehachapi Pass and coming down into the Mojave Desert, I began to feel angels. The closer we got, the stronger the impression felt. I could see them everywhere! Whenever there are angels present, I get very animated and excited, knowing that God is up to something big. I announced this to the group and said, "We have got to stop! We have to stop somewhere." We found an exit, took it and drove into this little town. We didn't really know what to do or where to go. We just knew that something was going on and we needed to find out what. As we drove around a corner I said, "I think that we are going to wake up some angels here." No sooner had I said that than we drove past a hotel to our left and, no joke, the name of the store was Mariah Country Inn. When I saw that sign, we immediately remembered the wakey wakey story from Wales. We knew we were to turn around, get out of the RV and wake up the angels. I wish I could convey to you the energy and the quickness of how God was working. We jumped out of the RV, I blew the shofar and rang the bell, and we yelled "WAKEY WAKEY." We got back into the RV and drove off. As we drove off, hilarious laughter broke out! We were stunned at the speed at which this all took place and were spinning from the adventure and the angelic activity. What in the world had just happened?! Heaven collided with earth. Woo hoo!!

Since that time, there has been a stirring in me to awaken the angels for use in this Kingdom reign that is upon us here on earth. I have shared these two stories in other places and have done a prophetic act of waking up the angels: having everybody cry out, "WAKEY WAKEY!" I know it is strange but it is very effective.

It does seem rather curious that these angels, the messengers of God, are apparently sleeping on the job until someone with a ram's horn shouts at them to wake them up. I realise she's the pastor's wife rather than the pastor but it's more than a little odd to think of the wife of such a widely known pastor posting this kind of thing, no?
 

visionary

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Awwww....The euphoria..
 

Alithis

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Awwww....The euphoria..

im soory but ..i had to laugh ... not at you ..

at the thought of sleeping angels haha .. i had this image ,came to mind just now ...goes like this ...

.. " hey hey ..angel ..!! hey ANGEL !! wake up ..dude look ..daniels already had half his arm chewed off dude!.. stop slacking on the job .. ! :biglaugh:
 
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Alithis

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Brighten04 im remindd of a thing thats been on my mind and bethal does it also .. it is this trend of pastors wives being co pastors.. by default .

this has become a big deal and the wives make the biggest deal out of it . but i can't find any scriptural backing for it other then the one single text they use that husband and wife are one ..

and that could not be a more weak argument .. (oh i addressed you because it's your thread and im taking a swing in the topic provoked by the bethel topic) as above we see that these default pastors can go off on some pretty "odd" tangents .
i find it very weird that peters wife in the bible was not a default apostle .. nor were any of the wives any teacher pastor prophets or what ever by default of whom they were married to .(they were those things as called by the lord in HIS will but not by default .)

the reason i challange the thinking is becaseu the reasoning used is ONLY applied in ONE SINGLE FORM .. where it is advantageous to the one doing it .

if the husband gets arrested for a crime (of the gospel).. does the wife then come forward and say.."we are one so i did the crime to please arrest me also " ..ouh no suddenly the principle does not apply ?

if the husband says im stepping down from being a pastor im going back to my trade job as a plumber .. does the wife then say .."Im a plumber now " ? no , suddenly that advantageous principle does not apply . and why would it .

if you are a surgeon and your busy ..would you allow your husband to operate on your patients because "you are one " so he is a surgeon too " ? -
where did this principle of usurping title by "default of whom you are wed to " come from ..it's not in the scriptures and its only applied where it is advantageous-interesting is it not ?
 

Brighten04

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this is thier web page . http://bethelredding.com/

i honestly dnt know what to make of them . but if you've heard about hype over feathers and gold dust manifestations ....its more then likely this is where you heard it happened

Thanks for the link. I know it looks like I have been here all day, but I have not. I went out to evangelize with my church today and have just returned home. I forgot and did not sign off my computer. I will check out this link.
 

Brighten04

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I appreciate all of your responses. I will check out the links provided and see if I can find this Bill Johnson on youtube or something. It seems, from your posts, that it may be something like what happened in Pensacola some years back. One of my friends went to that and brought me a tee shirt back.
 

tango

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One site I found interesting is a blog that covers a lot of the so-called New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The site is www.spiritoferror.org - the author appears to do her research well.
 

Brighten04

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Alithis

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I appreciate all of your responses. I will check out the links provided and see if I can find this Bill Johnson on youtube or something. It seems, from your posts, that it may be something like what happened in Pensacola some years back. One of my friends went to that and brought me a tee shirt back.

im not opposed to any of these moves ...they often of the lord .. even isuzu street splintered .but then so did the church at jerusalem (albeit vis persecution )and izusu street splintered over doctrine ,but then had it remained where it was as it was it may not have "spread" as vastly as it did ..

what we are allowed to oppose is what some of these "moves " later morph into - when you go back into their history you see a pattern.

Holy spirit presence ..gospel preached ..scriptural foundations ,people saved born again baptised i the holy spirit ..healings etc (ie -wil of God )

later on in the movement others join, faith wanes ,bible is put down ,focus changes and its all about shaking wobbling ,gold dust, feathers and blowing trumpets in angels ears ...

so we dont rubbish the move of God ,but we do judge the actions of "men" ..



Wonderful to hear your congregation is out and about in outreach ..am excited and edified by that knowledge :D
 

Brighten04

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Wonderful to hear your congregation is out and about in outreach ..am excited and edified by that knowledge

To God be all the glory. Yes we passed out Bibles and witnessed to a neighborhood. We prayed for the sick also.
 

psalms 91

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That is wonderful because so few do that anymore
 

Full O Beans

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What is NAR?
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/31851-the-new-apostolic-reformation-is-not-a-cult

8/24/2011 C. Peter Wagner

Excerpt:


What Is the NAR?

The NAR is definitely not a cult. Those who affiliate with it believe the Apostles’ Creed and all the standard classic statements of Christian doctrine. It will surprise some to know that the NAR embraces the largest non-Catholic segment of world Christianity. It is also the fastest growing segment, the only segment of Christianity currently growing faster than the world population and faster than Islam. Christianity is booming now in the Global South which includes sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and large parts of Asia. Most of the new churches in the Global South, even including many which belong to denominations, would comfortably fit the NAR template.

The NAR represents the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation. This is not a doctrinal change. We adhere to the major tenets of the Reformation: the authority of Scripture, justification by faith, and the priesthood of all believers. But the quality of church life, the governance of the church, the worship, the theology of prayer, the missional goals, the optimistic vision for the future, and other features, constitute quite a change from traditional Protestantism.

The NAR is not an organization. No one can join or carry a card. It has no leader. I have been called the “founder,” but this is not the case. One reason I might be seen as an “intellectual godfather” is that I might have been the first to observe the movement, give a name to it, and describe its characteristics as I saw them. When this began to come together through my research in 1993, I was professor of Church Growth at Fuller Theological Seminary, where I taught for 30 years.

The roots of the NAR go back to the beginning of the African Independent Church Movement in 1900, the Chinese House Church Movement beginning in 1976, the U.S. Independent Charismatic Movement beginning in the 1970s and the Latin American Grassroots Church Movement beginning around the same time. I was neither the founder nor a member of any of these movements, I was simply a professor who observed that they were the fastest growing churches in their respective regions and that they had a number of common characteristics.

If I was going to write about this phenomenal move of the Holy Spirit, I knew I had to give it a name. I tried “Postdenominational” but soon dropped it because of the objections of many of my friends who were denominational executives. Then, in 1994, I tested “New Apostolic Reformation.” “Reformation” because the movement matched the Protestant Reformation in world impact; “Apostolic” because of all the changes the most radical one was apostolic governance, which I’ll explain in due time; and “New” because several churches and denominations already carried the name “apostolic,” but they did not fit the NAR pattern. Other names of this movement which are more or less synonymous with NAR have been “Neopentecostal,” “Neocharismatic,” “Independent,” or “Nondenominational.”

Concerns about the NAR

If the critics are using openness to NAR as a slur against conservative political candidates, they obviously need to verbalize what could be wrong with NAR in the first place. To suppose that NAR is a “cult” or that it teaches “heresy” can be attributed only to sloppy or immature journalism. All too often “heresy” has come to mean only that the person disagrees with me and my friends, but the purpose of using the word is to project guilt by association on the politician. It attempts to implant a question: Who would vote for a heretic? But there is little evidence presented that the issue in question incorporates the doctrinal unorthodoxy of a true heresy.

Instead, key words are usually dropped which describe legitimate areas of disagreement among Christian theologians on the level of whether or not we baptize infants. Neither of the opposite positions on matters like this deserve to be placed in the category of heresy.

Apostolic governance.
As I mentioned before, this is probably the most radical change. I take literally St. Paul’s words that Jesus, at His ascension into heaven, “gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry” (Ephesians 4:11-12). Most of traditional Christianity accepts evangelists, pastors, and teachers, but not apostles and prophets. I think that all five are given to be active in churches today. In fact, St. Paul goes on to say, “And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” (1 Corinthians 12:28). This does not describe a hierarchy, but a divine order. Apostles are first in that order.

I strongly object to journalists using the adjective “self-appointed” or “self-declared” when referring to apostles. No true apostle is self-appointed. First of all, they are gifted by God for that ministry. Secondly, the gift and its fruit are recognized by peers and the apostle is “set in” or “commissioned” to the office of apostle by other respected and qualified leaders.

The office of prophet.
Prophets are prominent in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. As we just saw above, apostles are first and prophets are second. Every apostle needs alignment with prophets and every prophet needs apostolic alignment. One of the reasons why both should be active in our churches today is that the Bible says, “Surely God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And also: “Believe in the Lord your God and you shall be established; believe His prophets and you shall prosper” (2 Chronicles 20:20). I want to prosper and I want you to prosper.

Dominionism.
This refers to the desire that some of my friends and I have to follow Jesus and do what He wants. One of the things He does want He taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer: “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This means that we do our best to see that what we know is characteristic of heaven work its way into the warp and woof of our society here on earth. Think of heaven: no injustice, no poverty, righteousness, peace, prosperity, no disease, love, no corruption, no crime, no misery, no racism, and I could go on. Wouldn’t you like your city to display those characteristics?

But where does dominion come in? On the first page of the Bible, God told Adam and Eve to “fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, etc.” (Genesis 1:28). Adam, Eve, and the whole human race were to take dominion over the rest of creation, but Satan entered the picture, succeeded in usurping Adam’s dominion for himself and became what Jesus calls “the ruler of this world” (John 14:30). When Jesus came, He brought the kingdom of God and He expects His kingdom-minded people to take whatever action is needed to push back the long-standing kingdom of Satan and bring the peace and prosperity of His kingdom here on earth. This is what we mean by dominionism.

A Theocracy.
The usual meaning of theocracy is that a nation is run by authorized representatives of the church or its functional religious equivalent. Everyone I know in NAR would absolutely reject this idea, thinking back to Constantine’s failed experiment or some of the oppressive Islamic governments today. The way to achieve dominion is not to become “America’s Taliban,” but rather to have kingdom-minded people in every one of the Seven Mountains: Religion, Family, Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment, and Business so that they can use their influence to create an environment in which the blessings and prosperity of the Kingdom of God can permeate all areas of society.

Extra-biblical Revelation.
Some object to the notion that God communicates directly with us, supposing that everything that God wanted to reveal He revealed in the Bible. This cannot be true, however, because there is nothing in the Bible that says it has 66 books. It actually took God a couple of hundred years to reveal to the church which writings should be included in the Bible and which should not. That is extra-biblical revelation. Even so, Catholics and Protestants still disagree on the number. Beyond that, I believe that prayer is two way, we speak to God and expect Him to speak with us. We can hear God’s voice. He also reveals new things to prophets as we have seen. The one major rule governing any new revelation from God is that it cannot contradict what has already been written in the Bible. It may supplement it, however.

Supernatural signs and wonders.
I have a hard time understanding why some include this in their list of “heresies.” Whenever Jesus sent out His disciples He told them to heal the sick and cast out demons. Why we should expect that He has anything else in mind for us today is puzzling. True, this still pulls some traditionalists out of their comfort zones, but that just goes with the territory. One critic claimed that the NAR has excessive fixation on Satan and demonic spirits. This is purely a judgment call, and it may only mean that we cast out more demons than they do. So what?
 

Brighten04

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Thanks for your post Fullofbeans. That is good information. :)
 

Brighten04

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I found Bill Johnson on youtube. I listened to him until I went to sleep on him.. LOL:rotfl: But what I heard was good word. I think they would have to make a lot of noise to keep me awake in his service though.:sleep:
 

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Bill Johnson is a blessed man of God.
 

psalms 91

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Yes, he is very good
 
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