What is Bethel ???

[Alithis]

seems like attacks are becoming more commonplace around here

don't quite get you there ?

 

[Brighten04]

yeah i get what your saying

though i think "bill" (was it?)here described a pastor that actually sounded like a pastor .most i observe are more minor dictators .
i presently sit under an interim pastor who is preaching everything he can to discourage the preaching of the Gospel .. so you may say" im an Evangelist type .. but i don't view the gifts that way .. we each have the same spirit and while one may be better adapted (gifted)to one office .. we are all called to all offices and those who are better at one need to disciple(equip) us in the one they are better at and we in the area that we are better at ..so that the WHOLE body might do the WHOLE work of the Gospel rather then leaving it up to the giftings of the few ./
because when we read the "purpose " for these giftings- they are to equip the saints for the work of the Gospel .we are the body ..the whole body does the will of the head of the body ..and it is Gods wlil that we all do the work f the Gospel .

No, the scriptures disagree. The scriptures say SOME are called to certain offices. Personally I think every Christian should be able to lead another to Christ, and help their brother/sister along the way. If that is what you are talking about, then I can agree. But yes some "pastors" act like dictators, but I doubt they are pastors in truth. They may be operating outside of their calling. If your interim is not preaching the gospel, then don't hire him. He may be a plant by the enemy intent on scattering the flock.

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

The body is best served by each member being in it's propper place. What would an ear look like occupying the space of the nose? That is nothing but confusion.
1 Cor. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[psalms 91]

don't quite get you there ?

Just seems to be happening more

 

[tango]

yeah i know what your saying .

iv begun to question ..what is this "anointing " people speak of ?
the lord doesnt adhere to favoritism ..i read that some where

We are all called to walk in him by the Same Holy Spirit and do the same Will of God ... but we call people anointed and give them a hierarchical position etc ..i think we just have charismatic traditions that are as scripturally baseless as rcc ones and the like . im not saying people are not anointed ..i just wondering when did we start to measure things by an apparent anointing ? whats the scriptural basis for that ?

and to be honest , if you had asked me this only a couple of years ago i would have fought you tooth and nail in the defense of it haha ..wonderful how the lord brings us through and out and as we continue to seek the truth .. we find HIM

From what I've seen the "anointing" that people speak of is a mysterious and somewhat elusive blessing that God has apparently poured out on their preferred teachers, providing them with a handy spiritual-sounding term to diffuse any disagreement. So someone might respond to a detailed assessment of why one person finds a teacher's message to be false with "he is highly anointed" as if that were a useful counterargument. For bonus points people misuse the verse that says "Touch not the Lord's anointed" (Ps 105:15), apparently forgetting that for the verse to apply they firstly need to demonstrate that the person in question is, in fact, "the Lord's anointed" and then demonstrate that testing their teachings (as Scripture calls us to do) falls foul of "touch not".

I'm glad you came out of Bethel and their teachings. The first time I read When Heaven Invades Earth I thought it was amazing, but a few events (which I won't describe here as it would be a major thread derail) led me to question them and look more closely, so I read the book again with a more critical eye and found all sorts of issues with it.

 

[tango]

I agree that every word does not have to be annointed but when someone speaks mostly under the annointing then that is different.. The annointing has to do withour closeness to God not being treated different. If you desire the annointing then ask God what you have to do in order to get it for it will inviolve giving up things and moving closer to God. He does not show favorites but He also doesnt lower thestandard for receiving the annointing either

I must admit I prefer to just get on with the task at hand rather than worrying about a mysterious concept called "the anointing". I figure if I'm doing God's work he will give me what I need when I need it, or point me towards what I need to be doing.

I grew more than a little cynical of hearing the word "anointed" thrown around like candy at a hypercharismatic church I attended for a time. From the way they talked just about everyone, myself included, was under some great anointing. After one service where I'd shared a few words during the open mic session a couple of the council members approached me and told me how highly anointed I was. It didn't stop them ignoring my thoughts entirely when I explained how one of their preferred teachers was teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches, with quotes from both the teaching and Scripture to demonstrate why I thought the way I did. Apparently the anointing only applied when people said the things they liked.

I figured out that drawing closer to God usually involves giving up some things that my flesh wants. Jesus never said it was an easy walk

 

[tango]

This anointing people speak of is the POWER of the Holy Spirit. It is when the Holy Spirit in you bears witness to the Holy Spirit in another brother or sister. I can't explain it any better. Usually people get kind of angry when I start trying to explain what they have trouble understanding.And I don't like getting attacked because of what I know. But if you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost you have experienced the anointing. No, God is not a respecter of persons, but, He wants us to ask for his gifts, seek for His mysteries until you find ,and bang on the door and keep on banging until he opens the door to the riches of His glory.

You make some good points in here but even so there needs to be more to it than "...the Holy Spirit in you bears witness to..." simply because it gives no indication how to proceed when two or more people have diametrically opposed viewpoints. I remember sitting in a church service when a video of a speaker (Rodney Howard-Browne) was shown. Some present waxed lyrical about how highly anointed he was, others wondered what they were missing, I was so troubled by the video that I walked out. So unless we want to go around saying some have the Holy Spirit and others do not (in which case we need a reliable way to judge), we need to figure out who was right and who was wrong.

If we invited a group of people to lead the music we could easily cope with disagreements whether we liked them or not. Years ago my pastor and his wife invited some musicians from their previous church to play for us. Personally I thought they were catastrophically bad, which was rather awkward when the pastor's wife asked what I thought of them (I had to think quickly in order to be honest but at least reasonably tactful). The thing is whether the band was good or not was a matter of opinion rather than fact. But it doesn't work to say that a speaker is kinda-sorta-anointed for some people but not for others. It doesn't even work to say that his message wasn't for me, because if that were the case it would be easy enough for it to just leave me unmoved rather than actively repelled. So we need an objective measure to determine the truth when people's feelings and sensations disagree.

Our Father gives freely, but He does not give the same gifts to all. Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor. 12 that God divides among His body the different gifts. No one person holds all of the gifts. We are suppose to recognize the spiritual gifts of our brothers and sisters by the power of the Holy Ghost. Here is that chapter in full. Ask the Holy Ghost to help you understand it. He will.

Can't argue with that

 

[Alithis]

No, the scriptures disagree. The scriptures say SOME are called to certain offices. Personally I think every Christian should be able to lead another to Christ, and help their brother/sister along the way. If that is what you are talking about, then I can agree. But yes some "pastors" act like dictators, but I doubt they are pastors in truth. They may be operating outside of their calling. If your interim is not preaching the gospel, then don't hire him. He may be a plant by the enemy intent on scattering the flock.

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

The body is best served by each member being in it's propper place. What would an ear look like occupying the space of the nose? That is nothing but confusion.
1 Cor. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

yes .some are called to the office .. but take note of "the point" of the office ..the reason for its existence .. to equip the saints to the work .

 

[tango]

It's also worth pointing out that the existence of an office doesn't automatically qualify any one individual to that office.

If I claim to be an apostle my claim can be refuted by either demonstrating that the office of apostle is no longer relevant, or that the office is relevant but I do not occupy it. To verify my claim I need to demonstrate that the office is relevant and that I hold it. Anyone can claim to be an apostle, and when groups like the International Coalition of Apostles form it's hard to know how to verify their claims of being apostles. Certainly if Paul praised the Bereans for testing his teachings against Scripture we should certainly test the teachings of anyone who would call themselves an apostle with similar vigor. And if we find the teaching does not align with Scripture we need to reject their claims of being an apostle, whatever groups they may belong to.

In theory there's no reason why God shouldn't send another Paul-like apostle (i.e. one who did not physically walk with Jesus during his earthly ministry but had a hugely powerful encounter with him later). But anyone claiming to be such a person should expect intense scrutiny to verify their claims before anyone accepts that they are speaking on God's behalf.

Likewise anyone who would claim the office of prophet in the OT sense should expect to be rigorously tested. Under the NT model we see "two or three prophets speak, and the others judge" (1Co 14:29), which suggests that the people tagged as "prophets" may not be hearing the word of God as clearly as they might hope. After all, there would be no need to judge unless there was the possibility for error. Under the OT model the prophet spoke and the people listened, but if the prophet spoke falsely they were executed (Deut 18:20-22). Even if the prophet's words came to pass that wasn't a clear sign they were from God - if they encouraged the people to follow other gods they were to be put out from among the people (Deut 13:1-5)

Curiously, Kris Vallotton (from Bethel church) seems rather confused as to how to test a prophet. His article in Charisma magazine (found here: http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/prophecy/23819-5-tests-of-a-true-prophet ) appears to overlook many Biblical aspects, as described in an article here: http://www.spiritoferror.org/2015/0...-5-non-biblical-tests-for-a-true-prophet/5624 - this latter article concludes with Biblical tests of whether a prophet is sound or not, including the concepts of fulfilment, orthodoxy and their fruits.

 

[Alithis]

From what I've seen the "anointing" that people speak of is a mysterious and somewhat elusive blessing that God has apparently poured out on their preferred teachers, providing them with a handy spiritual-sounding term to diffuse any disagreement. So someone might respond to a detailed assessment of why one person finds a teacher's message to be false with "he is highly anointed" as if that were a useful counterargument. For bonus points people misuse the verse that says "Touch not the Lord's anointed" (Ps 105:15), apparently forgetting that for the verse to apply they firstly need to demonstrate that the person in question is, in fact, "the Lord's anointed" and then demonstrate that testing their teachings (as Scripture calls us to do) falls foul of "touch not".

I'm glad you came out of Bethel and their teachings. The first time I read When Heaven Invades Earth I thought it was amazing, but a few events (which I won't describe here as it would be a major thread derail) led me to question them and look more closely, so I read the book again with a more critical eye and found all sorts of issues with it.

missed this earlier

im not sure i was ever "in" thier teachings .. more ust a second hand influence .

i was concerned by congregations (still am) busying themselves with "running around doing "things " and having meetings to .. soak ? in gods presence etc and get blessing that amounted to warm fuzzy feelings .. but what concerned me is the lack of actually DOING what the word of god say to do - they do EVERY THING BUT obey .

and that is where the danger is

it does not matter how long you've been a believer ... it is written about the spirit of antichrist ..that it is at world in the children of disobedience

we can have a thousand spiritual blessings and speak in tongues and do miracles and drive out demons ... but if we do not OBEY the one thing the lord JEsus is asking of us in our life and we maintain that disobedient stance (do not repent )..then we are a child of disobedience and the spirit of antichrist is loosed ..by our disobedience .. to be at work in us .
Yes -it is THAT SERIOUS . this is why they will say lord lord we did this and that in your name .. and he will say depart from me your workers of iniquity (sin - disobedient -guilt )-

i have no qualms in warning the evangelical charismatics of this dire warning from the words of the lord JEsus -it is no joke .
if you are seeking warm fuzzy manifestations .. but you are not obeying the holy Spirit in your life .. the warm fuzzy feelings will soon be nothing more then demons gibing you warm fuzzy hugs all the way to hell itself .

 

[Alithis]

From what I've seen the "anointing" that people speak of is a mysterious and somewhat elusive blessing that God has apparently poured out on their preferred teachers, providing them with a handy spiritual-sounding term to diffuse any disagreement. So someone might respond to a detailed assessment of why one person finds a teacher's message to be false with "he is highly anointed" as if that were a useful counterargument. For bonus points people misuse the verse that says "Touch not the Lord's anointed" (Ps 105:15), apparently forgetting that for the verse to apply they firstly need to demonstrate that the person in question is, in fact, "the Lord's anointed" and then demonstrate that testing their teachings (as Scripture calls us to do) falls foul of "touch not".

I'm glad you came out of Bethel and their teachings. The first time I read When Heaven Invades Earth I thought it was amazing, but a few events (which I won't describe here as it would be a major thread derail) led me to question them and look more closely, so I read the book again with a more critical eye and found all sorts of issues with it.

missed this earlier

im not sure i was ever "in" thier teachings .. more ust a second hand influence .

i was concerned by congregations (still am) busying themselves with "running around doing "things " and having meetings to .. soak ? in gods presence etc and get blessing that amounted to warm fuzzy feelings .. but what concerned me is the lack of actually DOING what the word of god say to do - they do EVERY THING BUT obey .

and that is where the danger is

it does not matter how long you've been a believer ... it is written about the spirit of antichrist ..that it is at world in the children of disobedience

we can have a thousand spiritual blessings and speak in tongues and do miracles and drive out demons ... but if we do not OBEY the one thing the lord JEsus is asking of us in our life and we maintain that disobedient stance (do not repent )..then we are a child of disobedience and the spirit of antichrist is loosed ..by our disobedience .. to be at work in us .
Yes -it is THAT SERIOUS . this is why they will say lord lord we did this and that in your name .. and he will say depart from me your workers of iniquity (sin - disobedient -guilt )-

i have no qualms in warning the evangelical charismatics of this dire warning from the words of the lord JEsus -it is no joke .
if you are seeking warm fuzzy manifestations .. but you are not obeying the holy Spirit in your life .. the warm fuzzy feelings will soon be nothing more then demons giving you warm fuzzy hugs all the way to hell itself .

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is wonderful because so few do that any more

Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses do it all the time and sometimes Seventh Day Adventists do it.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes and they seem to do well but I am talking mainstream Christianity and as a whole they are doing a poor job of it

 

[Brighten04]

I think the church at large do not understand that we are One living breathing Entity, the Body of Christ. He is the Head, we are the Body. The Church is NOT an organization. We are One with Jesus Christ. When Saul of Tarsus was headed to Damascus and Lord Jesus accosted him on the road, He asked Saul a question. Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Let me post the scripture.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

IMHO, when the Church realizes, or come into the understanding of who the Body of Christ truly is, and that we all fit in the Body in our respective place in the Body(I don't care if I am a tiny cell in the little toe) , The Body of Christ will be unstoppable. Jesus said the Church was Him. It is like if someone steps on your toe, they stepped on you. But most people call the Church an organization, like a business, with the hierarchy charts, giving men/women too much power over other men/women like dictators. I don't believe that is the way the Church should function.But that is just me, and the way I see it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes and they seem to do well but I am talking mainstream Christianity and as a whole they are doing a poor job of it

Perhaps they are (we are) compared to the apostles but do you think every Christian in the first century was as busy and effective as the apostles?

 

[tango]

missed this earlier

im not sure i was ever "in" thier teachings .. more ust a second hand influence .

OK, from your post I got the impression you were more "into" it than that.

i was concerned by congregations (still am) busying themselves with "running around doing "things " and having meetings to .. soak ? in gods presence etc and get blessing that amounted to warm fuzzy feelings .. but what concerned me is the lack of actually DOING what the word of god say to do - they do EVERY THING BUT obey .

I get wary of what look like "bless me" and "me too" meetings. People talk of being eternally changed but then have to go back for a top-up every couple of weeks, which makes me wonder whether this really is God at work or just an emotional high. It gets dressed up in fine-sounding spiritual terms, along the lines of "I was filled anew with the Spirit, then went into the world and spread the love, and now I need to be filled again" but the idea that to be "filled again" requires going to a specific place also seems odd.

we can have a thousand spiritual blessings and speak in tongues and do miracles and drive out demons ... but if we do not OBEY the one thing the lord JEsus is asking of us in our life and we maintain that disobedient stance (do not repent )..then we are a child of disobedience and the spirit of antichrist is loosed ..by our disobedience .. to be at work in us .
Yes -it is THAT SERIOUS . this is why they will say lord lord we did this and that in your name .. and he will say depart from me your workers of iniquity (sin - disobedient -guilt )-

Very true, and if the people who "did all these things" apparently in Christ's name are told "I never knew you" then one has to wonder whether they were actually doing things in Christ's name at all.

i have no qualms in warning the evangelical charismatics of this dire warning from the words of the lord JEsus -it is no joke .
if you are seeking warm fuzzy manifestations .. but you are not obeying the holy Spirit in your life .. the warm fuzzy feelings will soon be nothing more then demons gibing you warm fuzzy hugs all the way to hell itself .

I think it's the warm fuzzies that are a key part of the danger here. At a hypercharismatic church I attended for a short time it seemed everything was about feelings, the feelings validated the experience - it was such a feel of warmth, of love, of God's presence etc - so it had to be God. And so bad theology compounded upon bad theology but because things were accompanied by the feelies it was all good. Sadly requests to discuss these things in the light of Scripture were never granted, either people were too busy or they flat out refused. So essentially all I could conclude was that the warm fuzzies trumped Scripture.

 

[Alithis]

I think the church at large do not understand that we are One living breathing Entity, the Body of Christ. He is the Head, we are the Body. The Church is NOT an organization. We are One with Jesus Christ. When Saul of Tarsus was headed to Damascus and Lord Jesus accosted him on the road, He asked Saul a question. Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Let me post the scripture.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

IMHO, when the Church realizes, or come into the understanding of who the Body of Christ truly is, and that we all fit in the Body in our respective place in the Body(I don't care if I am a tiny cell in the little toe) , The Body of Christ will be unstoppable. Jesus said the Church was Him. It is like if someone steps on your toe, they stepped on you. But most people call the Church an organization, like a business, with the hierarchy charts, giving men/women too much power over other men/women like dictators. I don't believe that is the way the Church should function.But that is just me, and the way I see it.

excited by this post because "this" is what your speaking of.
this docu movie is due out online for FREE in approximately 9 hours from time of this post .. (I have met some of the folks in it so its more special to me )
check out the trailer

i KNOW you will enjoy this so much you wil want everyone to see it
https://thelastreformationmovie.com/