Why was Mary necessary?

[visionary]

It is not a lie to deny Mary of deity.

 

[Lamb]

Which member here has proclaimed Mary as deity?

 

[Alithis]

It's a lie to deny that Jesus is God.

Then dont do it.As you can see..i agree with the scriptures.

 

[Lamb]

Then dont do it.As you can see..i agree with the scriptures.

She has not denied Jesus as God.

 

[Alithis]

She has not denied Jesus as God.

i did not say she has .. she implied i had .

she said "it is a lie to deny Jesus is God .. " so i said - "then don't do it . "

there is so much terminology thrown around these days that one must simply return to scripture .

so i ask does the scripture actually say .. Jesus is God .. ? he said of himself ,before abraham was "I AM " .. and john says by him all things were made .
he is "the word " of God and he is one with God .. but "alone " ..is he God ? the term "God " is plural in sense . to have "God " we must have all three as one and one as all three . if we have only one ,we have a manifestation (one of many manifestations in the bible ) of God .. but unless we have all three .. we do not have what we "term" as "God " .

when he addressed himself as "I am" the jews were enraged because he "made himself equal to God " -which is interesting .he did not say he "IS" GOd .. but by what he said made himself equal to .. because he is equal to , being a part of the God head .but not the entire godhead . for he is not the holy Spirit and he is not the father - he is the son .and at the end of all things the "son". is brought into subjection to the father .because he is the word of God and ones word comes forth from ones heart and it does not speak itself but it is spoken ..just as the lord Jesus said .For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. ..for the word is subject to the one who speaks it forth

 

[Lamb]

All that aside. Jesus is God.

 

[Alithis]

All that aside. Jesus is God.

the implication of your post is to say ."all scripture aside -" shall we cast off ALL scripture . does the scripture actually say "jesus is God " ? no it says he is one part of the godhead and that in him the fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily.. we only have " GOD " when we have all three .
the scriptures says he is the son of God , the lamb of God , the saviour , the king of kings , the beginning and the end ,that he is LORD and many more things .. but it never actually says ."he is God " because "GOD" is made up of all three parts of the Godhead .. not a single part only .


so again no mater which way you look at ONLY scripture .. mary canot be the mother of God and the word of GOD NEVER gives her such a blasphemous title .


so the conclusion to the question -Why was Mary necessary? using ONLY scripture can only be - simply because 1- she was a virgin (for the sign would be he was to be born of a virgin .
and 2. she was betrothed to Joseph ..who was of the tribe of judah and the line of David who in turn was of the line of abraham unto whom it was promised-" in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed " .

 

[Josiah]

SCRIPTURE declares that JESUS is God (John 20:28)
SCRIPTURE declares that Mary bore Him (Luke 2:1-7)

Ergo, Mary is the mother of God. To deny that MANDATES you reject Scripture on one or both points. To deny that MANDATES that either Scripture is wrong to call Jesus "God" and/or Scripture is wrong to call Mary His mother. To deny Mary as the Mother of God mandates you reject Scripture.


- Josiah




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[psalms 91]

It also says that Jesus is the way and that noone goes to the Father but by Him so while you are correct I still object to anything but Jesus being prayed to or venerated

 

[Josiah]

It also says that Jesus is the way and that noone goes to the Father but by Him so while you are correct I still object to anything but Jesus being prayed to or venerated

Mary as the MOTHER of God says nothing remotely about Mary being God (nor do any known to me claim that Mary is God, only that she bore Jesus whom Scripture correctly calls God).

I think Mary may (and should) be called blessed and held in esteem. Now, whether that means we may not "adore" or "venerate" or "admire" or even "worship" her all depends on how you define those words. But accepting SCRIPTURE (which declares and proclaims that Jesus is God and that Mary bore Him) in no way, remotely, indicates that MARY (rather than Jesus) is God, and in no way indicates that we are to regard Mary (rather than Jesus) as God. The title is Mary is the MOTHER of God, not that Mary IS God; the title is affirming JESUS as God. And agreeing with Scripture (Luke 2:1-7) that Mary bore Him.

Yes.... if one denies Scripture which states that Jesus is God, and denies Scriptures that states Mary bore Him - then yes, they will reject the title "Mary - the mother of God" (Matre Dei) or the Eastern title of "Mary - the God Bearer" (Theotokos). But to deny those titles is to protest and reject one or both of the affirmations so made: rejected the divinity of Jesus and/or that Mary is His mother.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



.

 

[psalms 91]

And if you pray to Mary then you ignore scripture as well, no way can I accept that as OK

 

[TurtleHare]

A lot of words typed but what is your confession? Do you believe Jesus is God? Yes or no?

i did not say she has .. she implied i had .

she said "it is a lie to deny Jesus is God .. " so i said - "then don't do it . "

there is so much terminology thrown around these days that one must simply return to scripture .

so i ask does the scripture actually say .. Jesus is God .. ? he said of himself ,before abraham was "I AM " .. and john says by him all things were made .
he is "the word " of God and he is one with God .. but "alone " ..is he God ? the term "God " is plural in sense . to have "God " we must have all three as one and one as all three . if we have only one ,we have a manifestation (one of many manifestations in the bible ) of God .. but unless we have all three .. we do not have what we "term" as "God " .

when he addressed himself as "I am" the jews were enraged because he "made himself equal to God " -which is interesting .he did not say he "IS" GOd .. but by what he said made himself equal to .. because he is equal to , being a part of the God head .but not the entire godhead . for he is not the holy Spirit and he is not the father - he is the son .and at the end of all things the "son". is brought into subjection to the father .because he is the word of God and ones word comes forth from ones heart and it does not speak itself but it is spoken ..just as the lord Jesus said .For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. ..for the word is subject to the one who speaks it forth

 

[TurtleHare]

You're bringing up things that the topic just isn't about and to say Mary is the mother of God isn't proclaiming her as God or that she should be prayed to so I don't understand the reluctance to state the obvious without adding on stuff like that?

And if you pray to Mary then you ignore scripture as well, no way can I accept that as OK

 

[visionary]

Her name is Shirley.

1 Kings 8:13 I have "Shirley" built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

 

[Josiah]

And if you pray to Mary then you ignore scripture as well, no way can I accept that as OK

1. The title is Mater Dei (Mother of God) or Theotokos (Bearer of God). Not, "Receiver of Prayer."

2. I agree that Christians should not pray TO Mary in lieu of, in stead of, or in place of God. On the other hand, I know of none who claim to do that, although there are Christians who request Mary pray for them (just as I might as you to pray for me). But, IMO, asking one to pray for them is not, declaring that one ergo to be God. I have some "problems" with requesting one in heaven to pray for me (although that's another issue for another day and thread), but that's NOT because asking one to pray for me equals my declaring them to be God but for other reasons.

3. IMO, to deny the title (Matre Dei, Theotokos) is to deny one or both of things the Holy Scriptures teach and proclaim: That Mary bore Jesus and that Jesus may be called God. IMO, to deny the title is to deny what I think we all agree Scripture clearly teaches and proclaims. THAT I have a problem with.


Perhaps we disagree on all these points....


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





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[Alithis]

1. The title is Mater Dei (Mother of God) or Theotokos (Bearer of God). Not, "Receiver of Prayer."

2. I agree that Christians should not pray TO Mary in lieu of, in stead of, or in place of God. On the other hand, I know of none who claim to do that, although there are Christians who request Mary pray for them (just as I might as you to pray for me). But, IMO, asking one to pray for them is not, declaring that one ergo to be God. I have some "problems" with requesting one in heaven to pray for me (although that's another issue for another day and thread), but that's NOT because asking one to pray for me equals my declaring them to be God but for other reasons.

3. IMO, to deny the title (Matre Dei, Theotokos) is to deny one or both of things the Holy Scriptures teach and proclaim: That Mary bore Jesus and that Jesus may be called God. IMO, to deny the title is to deny what I think we all agree Scripture clearly teaches and proclaims. THAT I have a problem with.


Perhaps we disagree on all these points....


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.

You will note first ,if you read carefully ,that i have not declared "Jesus is not God" but i have asked questions as to where in the scripture it states those words . Which means, in all honesty ,that we say so as an accumulation of all the collective things it does say.

What astounds me is you have not used scripture but again opinion only.

Since i was not declaring anything but asking a question .allow me to argue in opposition to my own question. When thomas see the resurected lord ..he declares thecwords "my lord and my God" but this too is interestibg fir before him stood the fullness of the godhead in bodily form of flesh .
The word spoken by god became flesh .the father spoke from his heart to save us and his word of salvation is born firth as flesh .he came out from God and hevreturned unto God ..just as he said. So mary is not the mother of God .she is the mother of he who came forth from God.. the son.he was not of mary .but as the scriptures declare.he was of the holy ghost. She was mother to his flesh body ,nothing more. The father was still in heaven where he is eternal ,having no beginning and no end. It is blasphemy to say he is mothered by a created being. You need to do some serious research into the origin of these titles only rome brought into use. They date back to the wickedness of nimrod and the despicable worship of the queen of heaven ..the moon godess whose image depicted her holding the baby sUn god . It is an ancient evil renamed.

As i have pointed out before .when we study the mary of rome and compare it to the mary in the bible.. they are Not the same being at all.

 

[Alithis]

A lot of words typed but what is your confession? Do you believe Jesus is God? Yes or no?

I believe Everything the scripture declares and everything the lord Jesus said of himself and everything the father declared of him .
Jesus is the manifestation of God in the flesh .

I am not compelled to believe a thing the scripture Never states.. God by his spirit NEVER refers to mary as mother of God.. he camnot. It denies his very existance as the etrnal God to do so..he cannot deny his own word.

All thread topics morph .and i have kept summerising it back to the op question.

 

[Josiah]

SCRIPTURE declares that JESUS is God (John 20:28, etc. )
SCRIPTURE declares that Mary bore Him (Luke 2:1-7, etc.)

Ergo, Mary is the mother of God. To deny that MANDATES you reject Scripture on one or both points. To deny that MANDATES that either Scripture is wrong to call Jesus "God" and/or Scripture is wrong to call Mary His mother. To deny Mary as the Mother of God mandates you reject Scripture.


- Josiah



.

You will note first ,if you read carefully ,that i have not declared "Jesus is not God" but i have asked questions as to where in the scripture it states those words . Which means, in all honesty ,that we say so as an accumulation of all the collective things it does say.

What astounds me is you have not used scripture but again opinion only.

.

SCRIPTURE declares that JESUS is God (John 20:28, etc.)
SCRIPTURE declares that Mary bore Him (Luke 2:1-7, etc.)

Ergo, Mary is the mother of God. To deny that MANDATES you reject Scripture on one or both points. To deny that MANDATES that either Scripture is wrong to call Jesus "God" and/or Scripture is wrong to call Mary His mother. To deny Mary as the Mother of God mandates you reject Scripture.


- Josiah




.

 

[Alithis]

SCRIPTURE declares that JESUS is God (John 20:28)
SCRIPTURE declares that Mary bore Him (Luke 2:1-7)

Ergo, Mary is the mother of God. To deny that MANDATES you reject Scripture on one or both points. To deny that MANDATES that either Scripture is wrong to call Jesus "God" and/or Scripture is wrong to call Mary His mother. To deny Mary as the Mother of God mandates you reject Scripture.


- Josiah




.

Apologies josiah.. i missed this post. The first verse u refer to is the same i used. The 2nd reference does not declare he is god.
And none of the support mary as mother of God.

I find it amusing in a sad way that those who will argue the triune nature of god would then deny his triune nature by declaring mary as mother of god. Why does the scripture NEVER DO SO Because it is not so. Go do the research of where such titles originate.it is absolute in the wickedness of its origin .

 

[Josiah]

SCRIPTURE declares that JESUS is God (John 20:28)
SCRIPTURE declares that Mary bore Him (Luke 2:1-7)

Ergo, Mary is the mother of God. To deny that MANDATES you reject Scripture on one or both points. To deny that MANDATES that either Scripture is wrong to call Jesus "God" and/or Scripture is wrong to call Mary His mother. To deny Mary as the Mother of God mandates you reject Scripture.


- Josiah



.

The 2nd reference does not declare he is god.

Luke 2:1-7 supports the second affirmation: Mary is the one who bore Jesus.

The title affirms two things: Jesus may be called God and Mary bore Him. To reject the title is to reject one or both of the things it proclaims.

I find it amusing in a sad way that those who will argue the triune nature of god would then deny his triune nature by declaring mary as mother of god.

The title is not "Mary - the Bearer of the Trinity." When Thomas calls JESUS specifically "GOD" does he err? Was Jesus wrong not to correct him? No, because Thomas did NOT say, "My Trinity." Each "person" of the Trinity may be referred to as "God" although each "person" may not be referred to individually as "Trinity." Perhaps your whole point is that you seem to not realize the title is not "Mary - Mother of the Trinity." THAT title would be wrong, but THAT title has never existed and is never used by anyone.

wickedness

... then John 20:28 with Luke 2:1-7 are wicked. Again, you cannot deny the title without denying one or both of the things it affirms: Mary bore Jesus and Jesus may be called God.




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