Infant Baptism

[TurtleHare]

How about those who don't understand the benefits of baptism read Lammchen's post 97 instead of asking? I mean that was 2 pages ago but it shows you all ignore scripture when it's in front of you as provided. If you keep asking it will be referred to again and again. The benefits to infants are the same as adults.

 

[Alithis]

How about those who don't understand the benefits of baptism read Lammchen's post 97 instead of asking? I mean that was 2 pages ago but it shows you all ignore scripture when it's in front of you as provided. If you keep asking it will be referred to again and again. The benefits to infants are the same as adults.

I met an 81 yr old man last week. He considered himself a christian .
An active relgular attendee of his denomination for 50+years .baptized (by sprinkling)as an infant into that denomination and thus told ..he is saved.
So i asked him in that 50 years have you ever heard the Gospel? He had not heard the full gospel message,nor had he any faith in christ. His faith was in what his denomination had told him. Shall we falsly tell that man he is saved? No.. we tell him the Gospel message so that he can responde to it in faith. His infant baptism counts for zero.
Your buddy keeps bringing up the topic of forbidding infant baptism.. and ignores that no one here has forbidden it. Simply showed that regardless.. all must repent .and walk in obedience to God who has saved us by faith in his word jesus.

Will you now have us go and preach another gospel ?the gospel message is not singular. It is a packaged message.
The call to repent..the instruction to be baptised..the promise of recieving the holy Ghost... which is also God acknowledging the sincerity of the repentance.. his seal of acknowledgement..his downpayment of surety for us.

 

[Lamb]

The above example is very difficult to believe, that a person who goes to church all those years has never heard the gospel. You see, liturgical churches have readings from scripture, hymns from scripture, etc... So, I doubt your story. I do hear of stories of people who believe in their works though and try to pass it off as Gospel.

Infant baptism is God's pouring out His Word through the waters onto a baby. With that, He keeps His promise to give the gift of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness, etc... Those verses of how we benefit from baptism are on page 10 I believe of this thread.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Note the following:

• MoreCoffee states that Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ;
• He then states that Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 teach that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection, but overlooks the fact that both verses also mention baptism;
• He then point out that Hebrews 11:6, Luke 9:62, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 3:12 and Hebrews 3:14 are not specifically about baptism.

Exactly!!

The verses he states are not specifically about baptism prove that faith and obedience are the operative conditions for union with Christ. References to baptism in the context of that union obviously refer to baptism after such faith was expressed.

People “baptised” without faith (including infants) have no standing with God above that of unbaptised people. It means nothing. Only baptism after a guileless expression of heart-felt faith, is meaningful.

Hence Peter's exhortation in Acts 2:38:


Thanks to MoreCoffe for pointing that out to us so clearly.


[Note 1: The reference to “children” in verse 39 is talking about offspring – that God's promise is going to remain through, and apply to, multiple generations – the time it would take to reach those “afar off”.]

[Note 2: The deflective statement often seen, that accuses non-infant-baptisers of refusing “baptism” below a certain age, is dishonest. Non-infant-baptisers simply believe that true baptism is meaningful only after a true profession of faith is made, whatever the age of the professor.

Given your stated views can you tell us what baptism means? What is its significance? Why baptise? Why be baptised?

 

[Alithis]

I met an 81 yr old man last week. He considered himself a christian .
An active regular attendee of his denomination for 50+years .baptized (by sprinkling)as an infant into that denomination and thus told ..he is saved.
So i asked him in that 50 years have you ever heard the Gospel? He had not heard the full gospel message,nor had he any faith in christ. His faith was in what his denomination had told him. Shall we falsely tell that man he is saved? No.. we tell him the Gospel message so that he can respond to it in faith. His infant baptism counts for zero.
Your buddy keeps bringing up the topic of forbidding infant baptism.. and ignores that no one here has forbidden it. Simply showed that regardless.. all must repent .and walk in obedience to God who has saved us by faith in his word jesus.

Will you now have us go and preach another gospel ?the gospel message is not singular. It is a packaged message.
The call to repent..the instruction to be baptised..the promise of receiving the holy Ghost... which is also God acknowledging the sincerity of the repentance.. his seal of acknowledgement..his down payment of surety for us.

The above example is very difficult to believe, that a person who goes to church all those years has never heard the gospel. You see, liturgical churches have readings from scripture, hymns from scripture, etc... So, I doubt your story. I do hear of stories of people who believe in their works though and try to pass it off as Gospel.

Infant baptism is God's pouring out His Word through the waters onto a baby. With that, He keeps His promise to give the gift of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness, etc... Those verses of how we benefit from baptism are on page 10 I believe of this thread.

you would be surprised how many who call themselves chrsitian cannot answer the question.. have you heard the full Gospel and if so ,, what is it . - so many people have an abundance of misplaced faith in thier denomination . But they are in truth , not saved . the lord Jesus warns thats it will be the case at his return .. it is those who "think" they are chrsitian to whom he says .." depart from me i do not know you. "

this man could not explain the Gospel of the lord jesus to me . but i did spend some time to share it with him .

 

[Alithis]

The above example is very difficult to believe, that a person who goes to church all those years has never heard the gospel. You see, liturgical churches have readings from scripture, hymns from scripture, etc... So, I doubt your story. I do hear of stories of people who believe in their works though and try to pass it off as Gospel.

Infant baptism is God's pouring out His Word through the waters onto a baby. With that, He keeps His promise to give the gift of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness, etc... Those verses of how we benefit from baptism are on page 10 I believe of this thread.

the part i have made into bold text to clarify i am addressing this part of your post . Infant baptism is God's pouring out His Word through the waters onto a baby.-where is this in direct unambiguous scripture ? there isn't one .. this is UNscriptural nor does it agree with what IS written .

 

[Josiah]

you would be surprised how many who call themselves chrsitian cannot answer the question.. have you heard the full Gospel and if so ,, what is it . - so many people have an abundance of misplaced faith in thier denomination . But they are in truth , not saved . the lord Jesus warns thats it will be the case at his return .. it is those who "think" they are chrsitian to whom he says .." depart from me i do not know you. "

this man could not explain the Gospel of the lord jesus to me . but i did spend some time to share it with him .

Wait a minute! This person NO DOUBT had the Gospel presented to him hundreds if not thousands of times - in hymns (yes, they sing Gospel hymns in every denomination), in Bible readings (at least liturgical churches have direct, verbatim, extensive Bible readings in EVERY worship service, directly from the Bible), and probably in sermons and Bible Studies. BUT, according to you, he never had "valid faith." Of course, this is one of the new protests to infant baptism - it must be forbidden, disallowed, prohibited because we can't confirm that in every case, as a direct result of receiving it, a person comes to "valid faith." Ah..... you just condemned singing, reading the Bible, Bible study, hearing sermons FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON..... Since we must forbid anything that doesn't CAUSE faith EVERY TIME, it is disallowed, forbidden, prohibited (according to the arguments here), so since you insist THAT'S exactly the case with sermons, Bible study, evangelism, hymns (doesn't necessarily CAUSE "valid faith" every time), you therefore prohibit preaching, evangelism, Bible study, singing Gospel hymns, reading the Bible for the exact same reason.


Wow.


- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

How about those who don't understand the benefits of baptism read Lammchen's post 97 instead of asking? I mean that was 2 pages ago but it shows you all ignore scripture when it's in front of you as provided. If you keep asking it will be referred to again and again. The benefits to infants are the same as adults.

Ironically, the opening post (what we are to discuss in this thread) has been entirely ignored, too.



- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

Yep scripture abounding in the OP too but you were accused of not reading scripture.

When people ignore scripture I find they tend to be the ones merely repeating what their pastors are saying without investigating for themselves. Maybe if we took it verse by verse and slowed it down? Acts 2:38 is an exciting place to start.

Ironically, the opening post (what we are to discuss in this thread) has been entirely ignored, too.



- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Wait a minute! This person NO DOUBT had the Gospel presented to him hundreds if not thousands of times - in hymns (yes, they sing Gospel hymns in every denomination), in Bible readings (at least liturgical churches have direct, verbatim, extensive Bible readings in EVERY worship service, directly from the Bible), and probably in sermons and Bible Studies. BUT, according to you, he never had "valid faith." Of course, this is one of the new protests to infant baptism - it must be forbidden, disallowed, prohibited because we can't confirm that in every case, as a direct result of receiving it, a person comes to "valid faith." Ah..... you just condemned singing, reading the Bible, Bible study, hearing sermons FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON..... Since we must forbid anything that doesn't CAUSE faith EVERY TIME, it is disallowed, forbidden, prohibited (according to the arguments here), so since you insist THAT'S exactly the case with sermons, Bible study, evangelism, hymns (doesn't necessarily CAUSE "valid faith" every time), you therefore prohibit preaching, evangelism, Bible study, singing Gospel hymns, reading the Bible for the exact same reason.


Wow.


- Josiah

Lol thats an awful lot of accusations based on an awful lot of incorrect assumptions.
Its one thing to attempt to read between the lines.its a whole other thing to write entire imaginary stories between the lines.

 

[Alithis]

Yep scripture abounding in the OP too but you were accused of not reading scripture.

When people ignore scripture I find they tend to be the ones merely repeating what their pastors are saying without investigating for themselves. Maybe if we took it verse by verse and slowed it down? Acts 2:38 is an exciting place to start.

Scripture does abound in the op.
It just does not expresly say to baptize infants...
Most of what is said in support of Ib (infant baptism) is based on doing it to all nations.
However never is baptism taught alone ..it is a part of a whole messsage.
The whole message is repent ,be baptised, and recive the promised holy ghost. Then go on and live In him . It is not Only Be baptised. Baptism alone saves no one .it just wets them. Add to that most ib id preformed by sprinkling .which is not baptism.

So while there are many scriptures used in the op . None of them support infant baptism.

A baby cant make the choice to hear and respond to the gospel so when they are able to.. they will have to obey god to enter into the saving grace of the lord jesus ...so while it seems a sweet thing for mums and das to do.. we cannot say it saves them. when they ask we must tell them the whole Gospel message and the need to respond obediently to it.

 

[TurtleHare]

God can give babies the benefits of baptism just as easy as He can to adults and a choice isn't something we make for salvation as scripture clearly states that God chooses us we don't choose Him. So there is no prerequisite in scripture saying that anyone over such and such age needs to first make a choice before the waters of baptism can touch his skin. God can give faith to anyone and it's not difficult cuz I mean Jesus even tells us in scripture that babies can have faith. Those who don't believe that ignore what Jesus says!

 

[psalms 91]

And those who ignore that we have free will and do chose also ignore scripture

 

[Lamb]

The will is bound to sin. Only Adam, Eve and Jesus have had true Free Will because the fall ruined it for the rest of us

 

[Alithis]

God can give babies the benefits of baptism just as easy as He can to adults and a choice isn't something we make for salvation as scripture clearly states that God chooses us we don't choose Him. So there is no prerequisite in scripture saying that anyone over such and such age needs to first make a choice before the waters of baptism can touch his skin. God can give faith to anyone and it's not difficult cuz I mean Jesus even tells us in scripture that babies can have faith. Those who don't believe that ignore what Jesus says!

really? where does scripture state that .we are talking about babies here. Not 10 yr olds.

 

[Alithis]

God can give babies the benefits of baptism just as easy as He can to adults and a choice isn't something we make for salvation as scripture clearly states that God chooses us we don't choose Him. So there is no prerequisite in scripture saying that anyone over such and such age needs to first make a choice before the waters of baptism can touch his skin. God can give faith to anyone and it's not difficult cuz I mean Jesus even tells us in scripture that babies can have faith. Those who don't believe that ignore what Jesus says!

really? where does scripture state that .we ate tslking about babies.

 

[Alithis]

-"The will is bound to sin. Only Adam, Eve and Jesus have had true Free Will because the fall ruined it for the rest of us "....
.
And the lord Jesus has given it back to us .this is why we are presented by the CHOICE the gospel presents us with.to obey the messageor disobey it. If it were not so then all would either be saved or All would perish

 

[Lamb]

-"The will is bound to sin. Only Adam, Eve and Jesus have had true Free Will because the fall ruined it for the rest of us "....
.
And the lord Jesus has given it back to us .this is why we are presented by the CHOICE the gospel presents us with.to obey the messageor disobey it. If it were not so then all would either be saved or All would perish

Faith is given to us in order to believe. We don't have anything within us to come to a choice on our own so the will is bound to sin. It's only by God's grace we can call Him Lord.

 

[psalms 91]

Grace yes, faith yes, but it is still our choice or do you believe that we dont have any?

 

[Lamb]

Grace yes, faith yes, but it is still our choice or do you believe that we dont have any?

Choice for what? Any choice you make doesn't really DO anything for you, because God has already given faith to you to believe. We are saved by grace through faith. No choice there. If we stay, that's not a choice.