Infant Baptism

[Alithis]

Okay, you have nothing from holy scripture that teaches what you believe about baptism. Nothing that says baptism is "about obedience" and nothing that says that baptism is "the final seal of a commitment made to God". Got it. Next topic.

well i have but the love of the truth is not in you .

I mean are you serious ? surely you jest .. surely you would not spew such wickedness so adverse to the scriptures which at every point declare repentance being turning away from disobedience and obeying God .
the lord JEsus said if you love me ..you will keep my commands .. and he commands repentance and baptism . its as clear as it can be .Perhaps you advocate DISOBEDIENCE ? if you do not speak from the spirit of God .
you bought up final seal of commitment not Me .
but in truth the final seal is the baptism of the Holy Ghost -it is Gods approving seal on those who have repented, it is gods acknowledgment of those that have truly repented and it it the down payment and surety of our salvation.
i would estimate that most speaking on the topic here have not yet received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of tongues ,and so speak from the carnal mind .in your case i already know this to be true in the sight of God . i say so in the name of Jesus . not withholding anything ,my conscience clear -

you must repent and be baptized in water (full immersion) to be saved and follow the lord jesus and him only serve in a perpetual state of repentance . your church cannot save you .

 

[Alithis]

The issue is WHOSE obedience? You look in the mirror - at YOURSELF - for salvation: YOUR obedience, YOUR works, YOUR holiness, YOUR perfection, YOUR heart, YOUR emotions, YOUR repentance, YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU..... It depends on YOU. YOUR works. This of course is the basis of Islam, Hinduism, etc. The other position (the foundation of Christianity) is that salvation comes from the Savior, which CHRISTIANITY proclaims as CHRIST (and not Altithis) so that we look to the Cross for salvation, to Jesus: HIS obedience, HIS works, HIS holiness, HIS perfection, HIS heart, HIS love, HIS mercy, HIS blood. You look in the mirror (as to Muslims, Hindus, etc.)... the rest of us here at CH posting to you look to Jesus - thus our very foundational disagreement.

Yes, those who are saved are called to great things: Absolute holiness..... absolute moral perfection..... love for all 7.2 billion exactly to the extent of Christ's love on the Cross..... etc. But these are not what saves us (Making Christ a joke, His blood worthless, His work accomplishing nothing, Christianity wrong at its very core). Again, you are confusing justification and sanctification - indeed worse, because you subject both to YOU, what YOU first do. Friend, I don't think you will EVER convince the Christians here at CH that Jesus is not the Savior, no matter how to try to confuse, entangle, water-down Law and Gospel, justification and sanctification.... I don't think you will EVER get us to look in the mirror rather than to the Cross..... I think your sad, absurd abuse of Scripture will never accomplish that (well, that's my prayer). But hey, this is an open, tolerant, permissive site (which I approve of), you can keep trying.



Now, the issue of this thread is not your point that salvation depends on you. The issue is the prohibition some make to practice of not prohibiting baptism for infants. Your whole premise to the issue is a single verse you pop out and isolate: Repent and be baptized. But you ignore that "baptized" is PASSIVE here (thus, nothing to do with obedience), and that the word is AND rather than the THEN your premise insists (you even admit your whole premise is baseless, unsupported by the text because you even admit the word is "and" and not "then").




- Josiah



.

what a load of trollip .

if a gift is offered you and the one offering it says .. walk over here and take it ... the act of walking over there and taking it ..is not a work .
you know this but you are entwined in pride .
you have resisted john ch 3 you have never acknowledged that the word of God is true on the other threads and now you cancel out the word of god instructing us to repent by implying you can be baptized without repentance in direct opposition to the word of god .
to top it off you have posted lies saying things i never said . you have been fully dishonest in your presentations and you well know it but continue to do it .even in the face of how many times i have asked you to cease and pointed out to you that i have NEVER prohibited the practice of infant baptism but merely showed that to tell someone who was baptized as a baby that they are saved - is a lie .

baptism is passive at the point that it is preformed but was it passive when you walked into the water? -did you not walk in by your own choice trusting in God by faith ?
ouhh wait - is that the issue here ?.. you have never been baptized perhaps ? that would explain a lot

 

[Josiah]

you have resisted john ch 3 you have never acknowledged that the word of God is true

I think it is you resisting God's Words..... the verse you keep lifting out and isolation is "Repent and be baptized" as proof that FIRST the receiver must repent and "THEN" they may be baptized, as if the word in the text is "THEN" rather than "and" (even though you admit that's not the case). "And" does not mandate (or even imply) order (which again, you seem to admit but then insist otherwise).

implying you can be baptized without repentance in direct opposition to the word of god

No. You are CHANGING the Words of God. The verse you keep isolating is "Repent and be baptized" "And" of course doesn't mandate order (or even imply it). You'd prefer the word "than" (although you admit, that's NOT the word the is Scripture). But Scripture doesn't remotely support your view - not at all - which you've largely admitted - so it is you who chooses to be in opposition to Scripture, insisting on a mandate/prohibition Scripture in no way states, you in opposition to Scripture. You even largely admitted it, saying it's NOT Scripture but YOUR claim that YOUR view is "common sense" to YOU... friend, that makes it YOU, not Scripture.


This thread is about one, singular issue: the insistence of a few Christians for the last 500 years or so that Scripture forbids the granting of baptism to those under the age of X - paedobaptism. That's the sole and only and exclusive and singular issue here. You have been posted in opposition to the opening post, thus in support of the prohibition. IF you want to address the issue of whether Baptism is a waste of time and water, doing nothing (but perhaps performing a good work to earn your own salvation), then start another thread: "Baptism is a Waste of Water and Time." Maybe I'll post in it.

baptism is passive at the point that it is preformed

Then it CANNOT be an act of obedience (at least on the part of the receiver).

You haven't noticed: the verb is in the PASSIVE ('be baptized') thus it CANNOT be an act of obedience on the part of the reciever. And you've noticed but negate that the connector in the singular verse you keep isolating is "and" rather than "then."





.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
He [I think that the "He" is supposed to be MoreCoffee] (apparently conveniently) ignored the scripture references in Post #78 and the questions asked in Post #79. ...

The verses mentioned in post #78 (none were cited in #79) are listed below. Does any of them or all of them taken together teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"? No? That's right, not one of them teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (This teaches that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ)
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (this also teaches that baptism is connected to union with Christ)
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (This teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection)

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (This too teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful to Christ's death and resurrection)

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (This verse is not specifically about baptism)
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (This verse is not specifically about baptism)​

Not one of the verses quoted nor all of them taken together teaches the doctrine that you say you believe. There's nothing in the above verses to teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Perhaps that is because no such teaching is found in holy scripture.

 

[Alithis]

I think it is you resisting God's Words..... the verse you keep lifting out and isolation is "Repent and be baptized" as proof that FIRST the receiver must repent and "THEN" they may be baptized, as if the word in the text is "THEN" rather than "and" (even though you admit that's not the case). "And" does not mandate (or even imply) order (which again, you seem to admit but then insist otherwise).





No. You are CHANGING the Words of God. The verse you keep isolating is "Repent and be baptized" "And" of course doesn't mandate order (or even imply it). You'd prefer the word "than" (although you admit, that's NOT the word the is Scripture). But Scripture doesn't remotely support your view - not at all - which you've largely admitted - so it is you who chooses to be in opposition to Scripture, insisting on a mandate/prohibition Scripture in no way states, you in opposition to Scripture. You even largely admitted it, saying it's NOT Scripture but YOUR claim that YOUR view is "common sense" to YOU... friend, that makes it YOU, not Scripture.


This thread is about one, singular issue: the insistence of a few Christians for the last 500 years or so that Scripture forbids the granting of baptism to those under the age of X - paedobaptism. That's the sole and only and exclusive and singular issue here. You have been posted in opposition to the opening post, thus in support of the prohibition. IF you want to address the issue of whether Baptism is a waste of time and water, doing nothing (but perhaps performing a good work to earn your own salvation), then start another thread: "Baptism is a Waste of Water and Time." Maybe I'll post in it.





Then it CANNOT be an act of obedience (at least on the part of the receiver).

You haven't noticed: the verb is in the PASSIVE ('be baptized') thus it CANNOT be an act of obedience on the part of the reciever. And you've noticed but negate that the connector in the singular verse you keep isolating is "and" rather than "then."





.

if you havbe not resisted john chapter 3 then answer this one question you have thus far refused to answer ..


Josiah -is this text below true -?

See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure.

Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.-

is it True Josiah ?

 

[Alithis]

The verses mentioned in post #78 (none were cited in #79) are listed below. Does any of them or all of them taken together teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"? No? That's right, not one of them teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (This teaches that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ)
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (this also teaches that baptism is connected to union with Christ)
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (This teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection)

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (This too teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful to Christ's death and resurrection)

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (This verse is not specifically about baptism)
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (This verse is not specifically about baptism)​

Not one of the verses quoted nor all of them taken together teaches the doctrine that you say you believe. There's nothing in the above verses to teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Perhaps that is because no such teaching is found in holy scripture.

you see folks .. as i warned -the rcc supporters will always direct the topic away from clarity and onto ambiguous sidelines because they do not like thier precious man made non scriptural based doctrines challenged .

 

[Lamb]

I gave you tons of verses.

 

[Josiah]

thier precious man made non scriptural based doctrines .

Such as "We are forbidden to baptize those under the magical age of X?" Is THAT the new, man-made dogma of which you speak?



- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The verses mentioned in post #78 (none were cited in #79) are listed below. Does any of them or all of them taken together teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"? No? That's right, not one of them teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (This teaches that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ)
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (this also teaches that baptism is connected to union with Christ)
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (This teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection)

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (This too teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful to Christ's death and resurrection)

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (This verse is not specifically about baptism)
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (This verse is not specifically about baptism)​

Not one of the verses quoted nor all of them taken together teaches the doctrine that you say you believe. There's nothing in the above verses to teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Perhaps that is because no such teaching is found in holy scripture.

you see folks .. as i warned -the rcc supporters will always direct the topic away from clarity and onto ambiguous sidelines because they do not like thier precious man made non scriptural based doctrines challenged .

There's nothing quite as distracting from an unbiblical doctrine as actually reading what is written in holy scripture and your reply is one of the most eloquent statements of that principle. You could, of course, silence all opposition to your doctrine by showing us exactly which passage or passages in holy scripture teach the doctrines you've claimed are biblical.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #103 Josiah quoted Alithis, then homed in on that quoted statement thus:

baptism is passive at the point that it is preformed

You haven't noticed: the verb is in the PASSIVE ('be baptized') thus it CANNOT be an act of obedience on the part of the reciever.

Actually, Peter said in Acts 2:38:

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As Josiah ought to know, if he considers himself anything like a student of the Bible as opposed to a faithful denominationalist, the verb translated “be baptized” is in the imperative mood – it is a command, requiring obedience.

There is no excuse these days for sloppy (even if convenient and necessary) interpretation of Biblical passages and statements and words. Free Bible programs such as TheWord (www.theword.net) have excellent resources for proper Bible study, and should be used.

Of course, such programs should only be used if the users are open to having their current cherished beliefs shown to be incorrect.

 

[Pedrito]

I'm not sure that MoreCoffee realised just what he was pointing out in his Post #104, the important section of which is reproduced here:

The verses mentioned in post #78 (none were cited in #79) are listed below. Does any of them or all of them taken together teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"? No? That's right, not one of them teaches that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God"
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into his death? (This teaches that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ)
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (this also teaches that baptism is connected to union with Christ)
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (This teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection)

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (This too teaches that union with Christ connects the faithful to Christ's death and resurrection)

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (This is not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

2 Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(These verses are not specifically about baptism)

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (This verse is not specifically about baptism)
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (This verse is not specifically about baptism)
Not one of the verses quoted nor all of them taken together teaches the doctrine that you say you believe. There's nothing in the above verses to teach that "baptism was the final seal of a commitment made to God". Perhaps that is because no such teaching is found in holy scripture.

Could he have actually fallen for one of my “red flag” traps?

Note the following:

• MoreCoffee states that Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ;
• He then states that Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 teach that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection, but overlooks the fact that both verses also mention baptism;
• He then point out that Hebrews 11:6, Luke 9:62, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 3:12 and Hebrews 3:14 are not specifically about baptism.

Exactly!!

The verses he states are not specifically about baptism prove that faith and obedience are the operative conditions for union with Christ. References to baptism in the context of that union obviously refer to baptism after such faith was expressed.

People “baptised” without faith (including infants) have no standing with God above that of unbaptised people. It means nothing. Only baptism after a guileless expression of heart-felt faith, is meaningful.

Hence Peter's exhortation in Acts 2:38:

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Thanks to MoreCoffe for pointing that out to us so clearly.


[Note 1: The reference to “children” in verse 39 is talking about offspring – that God's promise is going to remain through, and apply to, multiple generations – the time it would take to reach those “afar off”.]

[Note 2: The deflective statement often seen, that accuses non-infant-baptisers of refusing “baptism” below a certain age, is dishonest. Non-infant-baptisers simply believe that true baptism is meaningful only after a true profession of faith is made, whatever the age of the professor.

 

[psalms 91]

very good

 

[Josiah]

The verses he states are not specifically about baptism prove that faith and obedience are the operative conditions for union with Christ. References to baptism in the context of that union obviously refer to baptism after such faith was expressed.

I respectfully disagree. You seem to note well what Scripture does NOT say (which is good)... but then add an "OBVIOUSLY" which is entirely absent, as well.

Yes..... faith, baptism, repentance, obedence.... they are all associated in Scripture. But it is NOT at all, not a bit, "obvious" (and certainly never stated) that baptism is irrelevant, impotent, uninvolved in such.....and it certainly is NOT 'obvious' that Scripture forbids us from granting baptism to those under the magical age of X.

People “baptised” without faith (including infants) have no standing with God above that of unbaptised people. It means nothing. Only baptism after a guileless expression of heart-felt faith, is meaningful.

A possible opinion, but you have offered nothing whatsoever from Scripture that so states. Or that it is forbidden to give baptism to those under the magical age of X. Or that your late, minority opinion should "trump" that of the early church fathers (see the opening post.... remember.... the post we're discussing, lol) and that of all Christians for 1500 years until a few German Anabaptists in the late 16th Century invented a new opinion.

Hence Peter's exhortation in Acts 2:38

Which says NOTHING to your point or that of this thread. It only notes that what is expected is baptism and repentance (two of the things you note are associated). As another detractor has admitted, "and" here ("kai" in Koine Greek) is the most general, generic connector there is, it in no way whatsoever states, mandates or even implies order - much less a prohibition. This verse does NOT substantiate that we are mandated to NOT teach and baptize those under the magical age of X. It in no way whatsoever states that repentance must come before baptism.

[Note 1: The reference to “children” in verse 39 is talking about offspring – that God's promise is going to remain through, and apply to, multiple generations – the time it would take to reach those “afar off”.]

I reject salvation by association, that one can sneak in to heaven with a relative. I reject that there are TWO Saviors: Jesus and parents.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

Double post, sorry

 

[TurtleHare]

Oh, it's funny how people forget how we receive faith (hint: God's Word) and absentmindedly forget that baptism is not just water but also God's Word too (Ephesians 5:26 "so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word" Well, looky there, water and Word.

Jesus even spoke about infants having faith
St Matthew 21:15-16 (NKJV)
“15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children (paidion) crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”
And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,
‘ Out of the mouth of babes (napion) and nursing infants (thalazonton)
You have perfected praise’?”

Who could have perfected praise unless they were faithful?

It is modern evangelical christians who have turned away from infant baptism as they change God's Word and turn baptism into Law instead of Gospel.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #111 I clearly stated the following:

[Note 2: The deflective statement often seen, that accuses non-infant-baptisers of refusing “baptism” below a certain age, is dishonest. Non-infant-baptisers simply believe that true baptism is meaningful only after a true profession of faith is made, whatever the age of the professor.

In reply, Josiah offered in repetition (Post #113):

....and it certainly is NOT 'obvious' that Scripture forbids us from granting baptism to those under the magical age of X.

And TurtleHare in Post #115 stated:

It is modern evangelical christians who have turned away from infant baptism as they change God's Word and turn baptism into Law instead of Gospel.

One has to conclude one of three things.

1. My command of English is so bad that what I thought were two easily understood sentences, actually defy comprehension;
2. One or both posters are in the habit of not reading other posts properly, and are in the habit of simply pushing their views no matter what;
3. One or both posters chose to deliberately ignore what they read because it pulled the rug from under their feet, and responded as though those reasonable thoughts had not been expressed.

I leave the Reader to judge which of the three possibilities is most likely.


Also, Josiah (Post #113 again), in response to my thought:

[Note 1: The reference to “children” in verse 39 is talking about offspring – that God's promise is going to remain through, and apply to, multiple generations – the time it would take to reach those “afar off”.]

offered:

I reject salvation by association, that one can sneak in to heaven with a relative. I reject that there are TWO Saviors: Jesus and parents.

I could be uncharitable, and simply ask, “What is he talking about?”, but I won't.

I will simply point out that my thought was that the promise did not stop with the people being spoken to, but would spread down through time and out to other cultures.

Also, is not infant baptism (= baptism before personal understanding and faith response) tracking very close to what Josiah described as “salvation by association”?

I think that the whole reason for infant baptism has yet to be Scripturally explained. What direct effect does it have on the future of the child so baptised, and on the standing of that child in God's eyes?

I request a dual explanation:

1. The benefit that infant baptism has for the child both then and in adulthood, if that person never comes to valid faith in the saving work of Christ;
2. The benefit that infant baptism has for the child both then and in adulthood, if that person actually does come to valid faith in the saving work of Christ.

I offer thanks in advance for the understanding to be offered.

 

[Alithis]

I'm not sure that MoreCoffee realised just what he was pointing out in his Post #104, the important section of which is reproduced here:


Could he have actually fallen for one of my “red flag” traps?

Note the following:

• MoreCoffee states that Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is connected to union with the Lord Jesus Christ;
• He then states that Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 teach that union with Christ connects the faithful with Christ's death and resurrection, but overlooks the fact that both verses also mention baptism;
• He then point out that Hebrews 11:6, Luke 9:62, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21, Hebrews 3:12 and Hebrews 3:14 are not specifically about baptism.

Exactly!!

The verses he states are not specifically about baptism prove that faith and obedience are the operative conditions for union with Christ. References to baptism in the context of that union obviously refer to baptism after such faith was expressed.

People “baptised” without faith (including infants) have no standing with God above that of unbaptised people. It means nothing. Only baptism after a guileless expression of heart-felt faith, is meaningful.

Hence Peter's exhortation in Acts 2:38:


Thanks to MoreCoffe for pointing that out to us so clearly.


[Note 1: The reference to “children” in verse 39 is talking about offspring – that God's promise is going to remain through, and apply to, multiple generations – the time it would take to reach those “afar off”.]

[Note 2: The deflective statement often seen, that accuses non-infant-baptisers of refusing “baptism” below a certain age, is dishonest. Non-infant-baptisers simply believe that true baptism is meaningful only after a true profession of faith is made, whatever the age of the professor.

nothing to add . well presented .

thank you

 

[Josiah]

I offer thanks in advance for the understanding to be offered.

We're still waiting for the substantiation for this prohibition of infants from receiving baptism......

See the opening post.

I request a dual explanation:

The benefit that infant baptism has for the child both then and in adulthood, if that person never comes to valid faith in the saving work of Christ;
The benefit that infant baptism has for the child both then and in adulthood, if that person actually does come to valid faith in the saving work of Christ.

What benefit is there to preaching, teaching the Gospel if that person never comes to valid faith in the saving work of Christ? Should all Christians be forbidden from sharing the Gospel since it MAY be that the receiver of such MAY never come to saving faith? IF you cannot prove that EVERY case of a person receiving teaching comes to "valid faith" means it is prohibited from teaching, then are you against Bible study? Sermons? Evangelism? VBS? Crusades? Is all forbidden unless it ALWAYS directly and immediately results in "valid faith?"

Baptism and teaching gets a LOT (lot!!) of emphasis in Scripture. Of the very few things Jesus directly commanded us to do, baptism is among the "big three" (Baptism, Teaching, Loving). If it's a waste of water.... if its a waste of time..... if it does nothing..... I find it at least odd that Jesus, the Apostles, the early Christians and the New Testament would give baptism so much emphasis.


See the opening post.

I reject salvation by association, that one can sneak in to heaven with a relative. I reject that there are TWO Saviors: Jesus and parents.
I could be uncharitable, and simply ask, “What is he talking about?”, but I won't.

I was responding to the point that children under the age of X are saved through their parents, by means of being associated to their relatives (in this case, parents). I disagree with that soteriology, as I explained in the post. I believe there is one savior (Jesus) - and thus parents cannot and do not save (either themselves or their children).




Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Alithis]

so in short you cannot answer his questions of what benefit there is to the infant ? seems not ,as you answered a question with a question .
without repentance there is no benefit to the child .
even john wesley who "did" do infant baptisms ( mostly because he was brought up in that religious denominational mindset) Also said -
"A person who matures into moral accountability must respond to God's grace in repentance and faith. Without personal decision and commitment to Christ, the baptismal gift is rendered ineffective." - john Wesley

for he also , even though he practiced infant baptisms (although i do not believe they fully immersed babies which means effectually they have not ever been baptised ) knew that to tell some one they are saved merely because they were sprinkled as a baby was as unscriptural as it gets .

Jesus told the pharisees off for using their tradition to circumnavigate the word of God -infant baptism simply does the same .

 

[Josiah]

so in short you cannot answer his questions of what benefit there is to the infant ? seems not ,as you answered a question with a question .
without repentance there is no benefit to the child .

1. Substantiate for us that preaching/teaching the Gospel always and immediately produces "valid faith." IF you can, then by your premise, preaching/teaching is permitted. If you cannot, then, by your premise, it is disallowed.

2. Your persistent point that baptism and repentance are associated has never been challenged; what has been challenged is your premise that because you can isolate ONE verse that says "repent and be baptized" that ERGO one must repent FIRST and only AFTER THAT may they be baptized. Your premise is silly and is based entirely on a false, wrong assumption that the word "and" ("kai" in Koine Greek) mandates order when you have admitted it does not - therefore admitting your whole point is baseless.

the lord JEsus said if you love me ..you will keep my commands .. and he commands repentance and baptism

Sure. Where does He forbid it for those under the age of X? Where is the substantiation for forbidding those under that mysterious, magical age from being baptized?
Since He "commands" baptism, why do you disallow it in many cases (forbidding or allowing the doing of this command being THE issue of this thread)?

Read the opening post.

Jesus told the pharisees off for using their tradition to circumnavigate the word of God -infant baptism simply does the same .

Thus, simply give the verse which states, "Thou are forbidden from baptising and teaching those under the age of ____." We are told (over and over) to baptize.... where does it say, "But NOT - repeat NOT - unless they have attained their X birthday!" Or "But NOT - repeat NOT - unless first they hath pronounced with sinner's prayer!" Or "But NOT - repeat NOT - unless first they weep buckets of genuine tears in repentance!" Because so far, you've not given those.... you've not given ANYTHING to support the prohibition this thread is about. Just your opinion of what is "obvious" to YOU (but missing in Scripture).... what is "common sense" to YOU, according to you, but nothing from Scripture, nothing from before 1500 AD.... just a very late OPINION, based on self-described "common sense" of a tiny minority of Christians starting about 500 years ago in the Anabaptist movement; a very new, uncommon, baseless tradition.

See the opening post.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.