Oh you people working so hard for salvation

[Alithis]

The Law is true.
The Gospel is true.
Mixing, confusing the two is a lie.

may i ask where is the law in anything iv said.. or asked . ? you guys have asked me questions and i have not failed to answer them honestly and straight forwardly - but you have not ever answered my questions to you - i have only ever preached what the bible plainly states -why do persist to oppose it with ambiguous references as if you "opinion" now outweighs the word of God ?
the gospel is indeed true and what does the gospel.. which means the good news about the lord jesus instruct us to do .. it instructs us to obey all that the lord jesus commanded us to do .. which is repent of sin .the ability to do this is given us by the grace of god the opportunity to do this is given us by the grace of God -once we have experience the grace of God we do not desire to return to sin. So it is a simple conclusion that a person who continues to practice sin ..is not yet under the grace of God does not yet know god ,has not yet seen him.. Just as John says in 1 john 3 .
are you saying the lord jesus does not want us to repent of sin ? but you say the gospel is true? ..you do say that don't you ?
so if it is true -as all Holy scripture is , then the command is true also .. we have to repent of sin .
or did you cut that page out of your bible ?
or is your belief selective of the things you like vs the parts you don't like ?

you never did answer the question of the verses i quoted asking you if they are true or not .. so may i assume you deem the bible to be true ..only in as much as it feels good to you?.. but to be,according to your implications , untrue in the parts that you do not like ?> the parts which clearly speak of repentance and the parts which speak against continuance of known sin .
i'v asked you all more than one time.. which is it you believe ?

this diving to another topic of gospel and law is merely a diversion from FACING UP .
you say you can't stop sinning ? what sin is it your speaking of ..i declare to you GOOD NEWS ..the lord JESUS can set you free so that it no longer controls you nor has mastery over you .the LORD JESUS died on the cross in order to DO this for you .. do you not believe in HIM ?
the Lord JEsus in whom i believe ,his word is true and with him" Nothing is impossible to them who believe " .

 

[visionary]

What good is a King without a Kingdom? Can't have one without the other.

 

[psalms 91]

And if Jesus is king then what are His expectations of us and are we obedient as we would have to be with an earthly king

 

[TurtleHare]

And if Jesus is king then what are His expectations of us and are we obedient as we would have to be with an earthly king

Aren't the members of the kingdom already members then?

 

[psalms 91]

Aren't the members of the kingdom already members then?

Unless of course they are banished to a worse place, this will happen if they do not obey the king for those who love Him obey Him

 

[Hebrews 11]

Sinful man never wants to believe it. You overcame some big obstacles yet cannot see that you are still a human who sins daily. It's true.

If a person is in perpetual sin,they need salvation.

They key is to walk after the Spirit not the flesh.

This is ongoing sanctification, whereby we crucify the flesh daily.

Our minds are not saved ,it is our Spirit that wars against the flesh.

Christ has given us life by his death, those who come to him must do so in spirit and truth.

 

[visionary]

Is renewing of the mind work?
Is living a new life in His work?
How can His burden be light?

 

[Josiah]

Justification.... Sanctification....


There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).

Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience, unaware - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You know, the worst heresy ever, what Luther was excommunicated for, the view the RCC decided to split Christianity over. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part - now or ever - empowered by God or otherwise - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror as all my Catholic teach.


SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapien ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.

It is NOT a case of SELF somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, salvation being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insuffient, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate, a failure) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in our salvation (albeit we won't get the job done before we die - thus the RCC now gives us Purgatory). In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, modern Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, sancatification and justification - leading to the Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion we hear as constant din from them; nearly indistingishable from Judaism and Islam, all boasting of SELF. What I see is actually not a blending or confusing or entangling different issues, but the actual ABANDONMENT - entirely - of grace, mercy, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, in spite of such talk. The Gospel has simply been .... abandoned. What is left is just the growing part, the walk part, the maturing part. Christ AS SAVIOR has been lost (the key point of CHRISTianity!), all that is left is the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu point of getting closer to heaven each day by what WE do - with the HELP of God.


Mixing, blending, confusing these two DIFFERENT things means we are confusing who is the Savior, placing some trust/faith in SELF for salvation, looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross, giving SELF the credit for justification rather than Jesus, and of course, abandoning Protestantism which is built in part on the foundation of Sola DEO Gloria - God ALONE saves, God ALONE acts, God ALONE thus gets all the glory.... Jesus saves, not me. Not now, not ever. Not in part, not in whole. But once saved, once justified, I'm called to great things: PERFECT righteousness/morality..... PERFECT love to all 7.2 billion people exactly as Christ loved us on the Cross..... PERFECT obedience...... Making disciples of all 7.2 billion people..... and more. Do you or I accomplish this? No.... which is why we CONTINUE to stand in need of mercy, forgiveness.... why Paul says that he is the CHIEF of sinners.... why Scripture says there is NO ONE who is righteous. Even the saved fall short of what we are called to do. But then our justification is not dependent on what we do .... we are not the Savior, Jesus is.




Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Alithis]

obedience has to occur before either justification or sanctification wil occur -disobey the message in the Gospel and you're neither justified nor sanctified

 

[TurtleHare]

obedience has to occur before either justification or sanctification wil occur -disobey the message in the Gospel and you're neither justified nor sanctified

Objectively we were justified by Jesus's death on the cross. You deny this and act like forgiveness wasn't won there.

Subjectively we are given faith and it is faith in the forgiveness that saves us nit by anything we do. Sanctification happens because we are saved.

Going out of order denies important aspects of what Jesus did to save us.

 

[psalms 91]

OK say I bel;ieve what you say, that tells me and my sin nature to go and sin all I want because all is forgiven, is that about right

 

[TurtleHare]

Paul addresses that very topic where NO it does not mean go and sin as much as you want. Jesus died in your place and suffered for each sin you commit so doesn't that mean something to you knowing how your sins hurt the one who loves you most? God has the Law which is Holy and when we follow it we show love to him but also to our neighbor and that connects to what Jesus said about the 2 greatest commandments of loving God and our neighbor.

 

[Josiah]

Justification.... Sanctification....


There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).

Let me use this analogy:

FIRST: On January 23, 1988, I was born. I was GIVEN life - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On January 23, 1988 - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience, unaware - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.

In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You know, the worst heresy ever, what Luther was excommunicated for, the view the RCC decided to split Christianity over. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part - now or ever - empowered by God or otherwise - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror as all my Catholic teach.


SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapien ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapien nor worthy of being given life.

It is NOT a case of SELF somehow taping into the "gas" God gives in order to slowly "save" self in a SYNERGISTIC process - almost never complete in one lifetime and so (as in Hinduism) more time is supplied to finish the job, salvation being a JOINT EFFORT: Jesus doing what He can (perhaps) but it's insuffient, inadequate, He fails as a Savior - so we come to the rescue to help save Him from being a failure by supplying what He could not: Jesus does what He could (but it's inadequate, a failure) so WE help Him but adding the really important part, the part that actually results in our salvation (albeit we won't get the job done before we die - thus the RCC now gives us Purgatory). In the view of Protestants, AT THE VERY LEAST, modern Catholicism is confusing DIFFERENT ISSUES: man and God, law and gospel, sancatification and justification - leading to the Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, merciless religion we hear as constant din from them; nearly indistingishable from Judaism and Islam, all boasting of SELF. What I see is actually not a blending or confusing or entangling different issues, but the actual ABANDONMENT - entirely - of grace, mercy, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, in spite of such talk. The Gospel has simply been .... abandoned. What is left is just the growing part, the walk part, the maturing part. Christ AS SAVIOR has been lost (the key point of CHRISTianity!), all that is left is the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu point of getting closer to heaven each day by what WE do - with the HELP of God.


Mixing, blending, confusing these two DIFFERENT things means we are confusing who is the Savior, placing some trust/faith in SELF for salvation, looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross, giving SELF the credit for justification rather than Jesus, and of course, abandoning Protestantism which is built in part on the foundation of Sola DEO Gloria - God ALONE saves, God ALONE acts, God ALONE thus gets all the glory.... Jesus saves, not me. Not now, not ever. Not in part, not in whole. But once saved, once justified, I'm called to great things: PERFECT righteousness/morality..... PERFECT love to all 7.2 billion people exactly as Christ loved us on the Cross..... PERFECT obedience...... Making disciples of all 7.2 billion people..... and more. Do you or I accomplish this? No.... which is why we CONTINUE to stand in need of mercy, forgiveness.... why Paul says that he is the CHIEF of sinners.... why Scripture says there is NO ONE who is righteous. Even the saved fall short of what we are called to do. But then our justification is not dependent on what we do .... we are not the Savior, Jesus is.




Pax


- Josiah




.

obedience has to occur before either justification or sanctification wil occur -disobey the message in the Gospel and you're neither justified nor sanctified

As a Protestant, I passionately disagree. I believe that Jesus saves, not that we save ourselves; I believe that we are saved by virtue of Jesus' life and death and resurrection not because we merit and earn it by our own works; I believe we are to look to the Cross and not in the mirror.



.

 

[psalms 91]

Paul addresses that very topic where NO it does not mean go and sin as much as you want. Jesus died in your place and suffered for each sin you commit so doesn't that mean something to you knowing how your sins hurt the one who loves you most? God has the Law which is Holy and when we follow it we show love to him but also to our neighbor and that connects to what Jesus said about the 2 greatest commandments of loving God and our neighbor.

However the issue is that all is forgiven no matter what which is what your posuition says and the bible at least to me is clear that that is not the way of it

 

[Josiah]

I think two VERY different issues are being blurred as Law and Gospel are being twisted, blended....

But I'm recalling something from Dietrich Bonhoffer - a German Lutheran pastor and leader best known for his defiance of the Nazi's in his native Germany (and his imprisonment). In one of his books, he asks this question of what about the CHRISTIAN (thus one who IS saved, not trying to EARN it !!!!!!!)..... who is not repentance (in his heart). He raises this senario: This Christian sins (AS ALL DO !!! NO ONE is righteous, no not even ONE the Bible proclaims !!! Paul - I think we'd agree he was a Christian - insists that HE is the CHIEF of sinners !!!!!), so yes - this CHRISTIAN - one SAVED, justified - sins. He is aware of the sin (we often aren't!) and he repents in faith. Is he forgiven? YES! God is faithful to his promise to Christians - when we repent, He WILL forgive us. God does not go back on His word, His promise. Not ever. He cannot be unfaithful, the Bible specifically states - not just He WILL not be unfaithful, but He CANNOT be, the Bible specifically states so when a Christian SINS (and he will)....and repents..... God's PROMISE is to fully completely forgive him (70 x 7, at least). But then our Christian friend commits the same sin again (as we often do). And repents again. God forgives Him again (because he CANNOT do otherwise, He CANNOT be unfaithful to His promise). Our friend does the same sin again.... repents again... God forgives again. Rinse and repeat about a billion times...... Bonhoeffers' point is that EVENTUALLY, this can become a cruel game played with the heart of God, a game played with the Gospel.... our friend sins with the full intent of repenting, demanding God forgive him (as He will)..... it's no longer repentance.... it's no longer faith..... it's been replaced with a self-serving GAME. Bonhoeffer says that EVENTUALLY that sin may not be forgiven. Why? Because God rescended His promise? Because God laid aside the Gospel? Because God become unfaithful? NO! Because our friend made a wreck of his faith!!!! He has abandoned his faith!!! He is NO LONGER looking to the Cross for mercy and forgiveness but for a license to sin and not feel so guilty about it. It is NOT that God won't forgive, it is NOT that God forgot the Gospel, it is NOT that the Blood of Jesus can't cover that (even again).... it's that there is no repentance and faith. that sinner has made a wreck of it, that sinner has destroyed the gift of faith, that sinner is ONLY playing a sick, abusive GAME with the heart of God, with the Blood of Jesus..... and God LAMENTS that since God desires with all His heart to forgive that sinner, even again.

I think THAT'S what Paul is talking about. NOT that the Gospel is a lie..... NOT that God can be unfaithful to His promises..... NOT that justification is a result of OUR works (repentance or any other)..... but that CHRISTIANS (those saved, those justified) can wreck their faith and turn their relationship with God into an abusive one that means there is no longer repentance and faith, and thus God's promise to forgive (7 x 70) where there is repentance and faith becomes void, being that the sinner has abandoned both. Of course, even THAT sin is forgiveable.... most of us have been prodigal sons who were allowed to return home (even over and over and over and over).



Pax


- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Paul addresses that very topic where NO it does not mean go and sin as much as you want. Jesus died in your place and suffered for each sin you commit so doesn't that mean something to you knowing how your sins hurt the one who loves you most? God has the Law which is Holy and when we follow it we show love to him but also to our neighbor and that connects to what Jesus said about the 2 greatest commandments of loving God and our neighbor.

oh good - you now fully agree with what iv been saying all along .
and what john says ..." those who continue to practice sin ..do not know god ...." etc 1 john 3 .for if they did they would love him and in their love for him they will do what is right . just like what iv been saying all along in accordance with the scriptures . the Lord Jesus said "if you LOVE me ,,you will keep my commandments (do what i say - not just know what i say )

 

[TurtleHare]

But you turned repentance into something more than what God says by insisting we cannot be saved unless we first become perfect and that is sooo wrong.

 

[Alithis]

I think two VERY different issues are being blurred as Law and Gospel are being twisted, blended....

But I'm recalling something from Dietrich Bonhoffer - a German Lutheran pastor and leader best known for his defiance of the Nazi's in his native Germany (and his imprisonment). In one of his books, he asks this question of what about the CHRISTIAN (thus one who IS saved, not trying to EARN it !!!!!!!)..... who is not repentance (in his heart). He raises this senario: This Christian sins (AS ALL DO !!! NO ONE is righteous, no not even ONE the Bible proclaims !!! Paul - I think we'd agree he was a Christian - insists that HE is the CHIEF of sinners !!!!!), so yes - this CHRISTIAN - one SAVED, justified - sins. He is aware of the sin (we often aren't!) and he repents in faith. Is he forgiven? YES! God is faithful to his promise to Christians - when we repent, He WILL forgive us. God does not go back on His word, His promise. Not ever. He cannot be unfaithful, the Bible specifically states - not just He WILL not be unfaithful, but He CANNOT be, the Bible specifically states so when a Christian SINS (and he will)....and repents..... God's PROMISE is to fully completely forgive him (70 x 7, at least). But then our Christian friend commits the same sin again (as we often do). And repents again. God forgives Him again (because he CANNOT do otherwise, He CANNOT be unfaithful to His promise). Our friend does the same sin again.... repents again... God forgives again. Rinse and repeat about a billion times...... Bonhoeffers' point is that EVENTUALLY, this can become a cruel game played with the heart of God, a game played with the Gospel.... our friend sins with the full intent of repenting, demanding God forgive him (as He will)..... it's no longer repentance.... it's no longer faith..... it's been replaced with a self-serving GAME. Bonhoeffer says that EVENTUALLY that sin may not be forgiven. Why? Because God rescended His promise? Because God laid aside the Gospel? Because God become unfaithful? NO! Because our friend made a wreck of his faith!!!! He has abandoned his faith!!! He is NO LONGER looking to the Cross for mercy and forgiveness but for a license to sin and not feel so guilty about it. It is NOT that God won't forgive, it is NOT that God forgot the Gospel, it is NOT that the Blood of Jesus can't cover that (even again).... it's that there is no repentance and faith. that sinner has made a wreck of it, that sinner has destroyed the gift of faith, that sinner is ONLY playing a sick, abusive GAME with the heart of God, with the Blood of Jesus..... and God LAMENTS that since God desires with all His heart to forgive that sinner, even again.

I think THAT'S what Paul is talking about. NOT that the Gospel is a lie..... NOT that God can be unfaithful to His promises..... NOT that justification is a result of OUR works (repentance or any other)..... but that CHRISTIANS (those saved, those justified) can wreck their faith and turn their relationship with God into an abusive one that means there is no longer repentance and faith, and thus God's promise to forgive (7 x 70) where there is repentance and faith becomes void, being that the sinner has abandoned both. Of course, even THAT sin is forgiveable.... most of us have been prodigal sons who were allowed to return home (even over and over and over and over).



Pax


- Josiah

here again your now agreeing with what i have been pointing out .i have never ever said god does not forgive the repentant heart . only that the scriptures says that one who continues to practice sin shows by their actions that they are NOT repentant ,just feigning repentance. thats self deception as God can't be deceived . the repentant heart turns away and does not follow the practicing of sin but follows the lord JEsus into ever increasing holiness . to practice sin over and over we must renege on our repentance -and any one who keeps doing that ..has not yet experienced the Grace of God .becaseu when they do that which was wicked become exceedingly wicked to them ..and the new nature of christ within them canot desire to practice it and if they walk in the new nature of the Spirit of Christ ,they wont practice the sin no matter how aware they are of the flesh's desire to do so -they wil not serve the flesh in "the evil desires thereof ."
the evidence of repentance is .. they don't do it any more .

 

[Alithis]

But you turned repentance into something more than what God says by insisting we cannot be saved unless we first become perfect and that is sooo wrong.

absolutely have NEVER EVER said that - not once . not ever . never even implied it .

what i said was 1John ch3 ... thats the full premise and basis of everything i have been sharing (along with all the many verses supporting it from the gospels books to the epistles )

 

[Josiah]

here again your now agreeing with what i have been pointing out .i have never ever said god does not forgive the repentant heart . only that the scriptures says that one who continues to practice sin shows by their actions that they are NOT repentant ,just feigning repentance. thats self deception as God can't be deceived

As I noted above, I COMPLETELY disagree with you.

1. ALL Christians continue to sin; you have yet to give me the name of one person who does not sin (Christian or otherwise); thus your whole premise of being sinless is one I reject (ain't no such thing as a SINLESS.... anyone, we ALL continue to sin).

2. I reject your works-righteousness, your emphasis that WE must DO things to be saved. I have rejected - boldly - your entire theology.

READ our extensive exchange - over many days - I've rejected your position. Not only as a Protestant, but as a Christian. Now.... if you've reconsidered and while to recant your posts and take a new position, then I REJOICE. I would love to stand with you. But I cannot as long as you insist that self saves self, that our works of obedience is what saves, etc. - your repudiation of the Christian and Protestant positions that I (and several others) have shared with you that you so strongly have rejected and repudiated.