Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[MoreCoffee]

Not really.

There are two ways to mean God's word...one is the scriptures and one is Jesus the Christ. When we are presented with the scriptures, the Holy Spirit works to bring men to faith by grace. Hebrews 4 discusses how God's word is alive and active by first talking about how the good news brought people to believe. The written word is not in conflict with the Savior Jesus.

Seems to me that the Greek word for "word" is logos or one of its related words, while the Greek word for "scripture" is graphe or one of its related words making the two quite distinct in the NT manuscripts. Logos is about a word spoken rather than a word written.

The word in Hebrews 4:12-13 is not graphe.

 

[Lamb]

Seems to me that the Greek word for "word" is logos or one of its related words, while the Greek word for "scripture" is graphe or one of its related words making the two quite distinct in the NT manuscripts. Logos is about a word spoken rather than a word written.

The word in Hebrews 4:12-13 is not graphe.

I thought most people considered "scriptures" to be both the written and spoken word of God? Catholics don't? Interesting.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I thought most people considered "scriptures" to be both the written and spoken word of God? Catholics don't? Interesting.

It's a worthwhile thought, right? scripture is graphe and Word is Logos, and sometimes logos is a reference to what Christ reveals to the faithful by the Spirit when they read or hear the scriptures. MY caution stems from having half a dozen evangelical Christians tell me that the bible is God in the sense of being incarnate Word.

 

[brightfame52]

The Just shall live by His Faith !

Hab 2:4

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Shall means its a sure and certain promise effected by the Power of God !

What I am about to explain here is not going to be received to those who are involved in false religion, but the declaration " but the just shall live by his faith"

It is a Divine Promise, a Certain Fact that all for whom Christ died, shall live by his Faith, no exceptions !

Now this is absolutely true because Christ's obedience unto death, for all whom He died, they are by that fact alone made Just Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous or just same word in the original.

The word righteous here is the same greek word dikaios and is also translated the word just 33 times to include here Rom 1:17 where we find a quote of the Divine Promise of Hab 2:4; and so because Christ's death of obedience has made all for whom He died Just, the Divine Promise says they must Live by Faith, or else God's Word of Promise has failed !

Now here is another quote of that same promise Heb 10:38

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But now what about those described in the same verse as drawing back ? Its simple, they were not made Just by the obedience of one, they simply are those Christ did not taste death for Heb 2:9, because if He did, then God's Promise cannot fail, which is "Now the just shall live by faith" which is in the future indicative mood !

Hence you show me a person that never begins a life of living by Faith in Christ Jesus, then I show you a person that Christ never died for, and so it is, they believe not, because they are not of my Sheep, whom I lay down my life for Jn 10:11,15,26 ! 23

 

[Lamb]

It's a worthwhile thought, right? scripture is graphe and Word is Logos, and sometimes logos is a reference to what Christ reveals to the faithful by the Spirit when they read or hear the scriptures. MY caution stems from having half a dozen evangelical Christians tell me that the bible is God in the sense of being incarnate Word.

Well, that's why I initially said it's God's word that brings us to faith, in that the Holy Spirit uses what we hear and read to bring us to faith. Those things we hear and read come from the Holy Bible, effecting faith within us due to the Holy Spirit's efforts.

 

[jswauto]

We call him Jesus
Because he is Jehovah who saves!

 

[brightfame52]

The Just shall live by His Faith and sanctification !

Because the Just shall live by Faith, that's the reason for the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Did you know that the word belief here is the same greek word for the word Faith , its the feminine noun pistis :

I.conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

It is translated faith (239x) This means again that Faith to believe the Truth is through the sanctification of the Spirit, and it fulfills the Promise that the Just shall live by Faith, the same word belief !

The Just shall acknowledge the Truth Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

So understand, the Just, those Christ made so by His One act of obedience Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous or Just.

They shall live by Faith, through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth, the Spirit of God fulfills God promise , that all for whom Christ died and made Just, that they shall live by Faith, or be believing in the Son Jn 3:16 !

 

[brightfame52]

We call him Jesus
Because he is Jehovah who saves!

And Particularly He saves His People from their sins, so that is cojoined with His name Jesus Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

And He shall save them, not try, attempt, make available, but He shall, by the word of promise ,save His People from their sins.

 

[brightfame52]

The Meaning of John 12:32

John 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

What this means and is denied by the religion of men crowd, is that as a result of His Cross Work, being lifted up, it will cause all, for whom it was for, to come to Him in Repentance and Faith, yes all for whom He died will come to Him seeking an intimacy and to follow Him Jn 6:37 ! This one verse capsulizes Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

In other words, Salvation by Grace through Faith is the Gift of God, it’s the reality of Jn 12:32 coming to past, Eph 2:8 is a Gift of the Saving Effects of Christ and Him Crucified, being lifted up ! That’s why Paul could say 1 Cor 2:2

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Yes, for the Preaching and expounding of that Message would be God’s ordained way to draw them for whom He was Crucified to Faith in Him ! 23

 

[brightfame52]

Delivered from the curse of the Law !

Num 23:8

How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the Lord hath not defied?

Gal 3:10-13

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

How did Christ do this ? By being made a curse for us !

This being cursed in Vs 10 above , cannot never apply to anyone Christ died for, because by His death He hath redeemed them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Not by their faith, not by their repentance, not by them obeying, none of that, it was done solely by Him "being made a curse for them"

So the only alternative any of them have is to as stated in Vs 11 Live by Faith Gal 3:11

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The Just is everyone Christ died for, was made a curse for Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Look, the Just in Gal 3:11b are the made Righteous in Rom 5:19, its the same greek word in the original dikaios strongs 1342 !

So the death of Christ delivered them from the curse of the law and it made them Just, the promise of God to the Just is again " The just shall live by faith."

And for this cause its not even remotely possible that the Just, those Christ died for and made so, not to live by Faith, and Vs 14 of Gal 3:14

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Its the Spirit they receive as the blessing of Abraham [Gen 12:3] which causes them to Live by Faith, and so show themselves to be the Promised Spiritual children of Abraham, that God promised him Gal 3:7

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

God in the Gospel to Abraham promised to Justify his seed by Faith Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen [Abraham's Seed] through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Again Rom 3:29-30

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Rom 4:16-17a

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,

So in conclusion those Christ died for can never be of those in Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Because Christ has redeemed them from the curse of the Law, How ? By being made a curse for them, in their stead Gal 3:13 !

 

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous by His Blood !

As those Christ died for are made Righteous by His Obedience Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.;

Likewise are they made Righteous solely by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For His obedience in Vs 19 is the same as His Blood here in Vs 9, since we can take His obedience as referring to His Obedience unto death as in Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And His death, blood and cross are all seen as synonymous in scripture, so therefore the effects and results are the same, to be made Righteous, and to be Justified, they are both the same. The word Justified in Vs 9 is the greek word dikaioō:strongs 1344

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Its also means being made free Rom 6:7 !

And the word righteous in Rom 5:19b is the greek word dikaios out of which the verb dikaioō above is derived and it means:

I.righteous, observing divine laws
A.
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
i.
of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

ii.
innocent, faultless, guiltless

iii.
used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
a.
only Christ truly


iv.
approved of or acceptable of God


B.
in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

By His blood alone, apart from their obedience, those Christ has died for are approved of or acceptable to God, they are innocent, faultless, guiltless !

So if anyone Christ died for goes to hell in unbelief and for their sins as Per Jn 8:24, then God is Unjust in that He is punishing those who are before Him because of Christ's blood innocent, faultless, guiltless ! 23

 

[brightfame52]

It accomplished Salvation from unbelief/disobedience !

One of the consequences of the sin of Adam, who by the way did not federally represent all mankind without exception, but only the godly remnant or seed Mal 2:15

And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

Again one of the consequences was that God confined, imprisoned that Seed into Unbelief or disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

By it God designed a purpose of mercy for them, they all being the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23-24

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Adam was the natural and federal head of all the vessels of mercy, whether they be of the jews or of the Gentiles !

But here is the point, back in Rom 11:32 it is stated that God concluded them all [ all the vessels of mercy] unto unbelief !

That word concluded is key here, its the greek word sygkleiō and means:

I.
to shut up together, enclose
A.
of a shoal of fishes in a net


II.
to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

It means to: to shut or hem in; close in on all sides, to hold or contain,

to confine in or as if in a prison.

In fact some modern translations render the word thusly:

For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.asv

32 God has locked up all people in disobedience, in order to have mercy on all of them.ceb

32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.esv

32 God has ·given [imprisoned] all people ·over to their stubborn ways [L to/in disobedience] so that he can show mercy to all.exb

32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.hcsb

Also it denotes :

make subject to, so to deliver one up to the power of a person or thing that he is completely shut in, as it were, without means of escape:

They were consigned to the power of the devil, and that's how unbelief reigns 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Listen, as long as satan has power over our minds, blinding them, we are still imprisoned in Unbelief/ disobedience and CANNOT BELIEVE !

But here is the deal, all for whom Christ died, as their Covenant Head and Surety, whether jew or Gentile, He being given as a Covenant to the people as per Isa 42:6,7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Gentiles included in the people, one of the effects of that follows in Vs 7

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

It brings all the people for whom He was given as a Covenant for, It brings them out of the Prison ! What Prison ? The Prison of Unbelief/ disobedience, which the devil, with power granted him by God, held them imprisoned unto. Thats why belief of the Gospel is an evidence of satan's power over one has been destroyed by the victorious death of Christ ! The effects , results, consequences of His death for one is:

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison of unbelief/disobedience, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 23

 

[brightfame52]

The author of Salvation to them obeying Him !

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In other words, the ones obeying Him is proof of His Death effecting and Authoring their Salvation, for without Christ first saving us, we cannot obey Him. If one is not in this life brought to the obedience of the Faith via the Gospel, then Christ was not their Saviour, for He cannot be our Saviour if He did not Author our obedience of Faith, as it is written Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He is the author of them obeying Him Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

But Jesus Authors the obeying of His Gospel, which is evidence of Salvation ! And So if we obey from the Heart, God is to be Thanked Rom 6:17

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

I know the opponents of Christ followers cannot receive this Truth, and believe that their obedience is what caused Christ to author their salvation, attempting to take credit from Christ and crown themselves instead !

 

[brightfame52]

It makes us Kings and Priests !

Rev 5:9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

According to this passage, what made these Kings and Priests unto God ? Was it their faith ? How about their repentance ? Was it their obedience ?

No sir, it was the sole fact that for them He was slain and that redeemed them unto God !

Peter says the same thing 1 Pet 1:18-19;2:5,9

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 23

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Being made unto an Holy Priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ is an effect and accomplishment of Christ being slain for those He died for !

 

[jswauto]

Hey Christian...There's a great mandate on your life to preach the Gospel of the Real and Living God, that Mighty and Miracle Working God, the Lord God Almighty. We call him Jesus!!

The Great Commission

(Mark 16:14-18)

Mathew 28:

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

He makes them Believers !

Everyone Christ died for, all His Sheep, as a result, He also did purchase and acquire for them Faith and Repentance, which is given to them along with Himself Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

That word give is the greek word charizomai :

C.to give graciously, give freely, bestow

And its the same word used by Paul to give us to understand that to some it has been on behalf of Christ , given to believe on Him Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Thats Just one of the many things freely given along with Christ, to them He was delivered up for Per Rom 8:32

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Now Christ died for all of His Sheep, or was delivered up for all His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life [or was delivered up] for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now if He was delivered up for all of the Sheep, and along with that all things are freely given them, which one of those things is to believe on His Name Per Phil 1:29, then if one never does believe on His Name for Salvation, the obvious conclusion is only viable, which Jesus states here as to why some jews failed to believe on Him Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Because, if they were of His Sheep, then He layed down His Life for them[or was delivered up for them Rom 8:32] Vs 11,15 and as a consequent, They would have , on His behalf, given to believe on Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

So His death makes His Sheep Believers ! 23

 

[brightfame52]

lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The end of the world, I believe its here ! Do you believe the True Gospel the Apostles preached ?

 

[BruceLeiter]

It's a worthwhile thought, right? scripture is graphe and Word is Logos, and sometimes logos is a reference to what Christ reveals to the faithful by the Spirit when they read or hear the scriptures. MY caution stems from having half a dozen evangelical Christians tell me that the bible is God in the sense of being incarnate Word.

@MoreCoffee, are you sure that those evangelical Christians said that "the Bible is God in the sense of being incarnate Word"? What in the world did they mean by that description, and what do you think they meant, if they said it that way?

 

[MoreCoffee]

@MoreCoffee, are you sure that those evangelical Christians said that "the Bible is God in the sense of being incarnate Word"? What in the world did they mean by that description, and what do you think they meant, if they said it that way?

You are asking the wrong person when you ask what they meant. All I can legitimately tell you is what they said, and they said, " The word [meaning the bible] is God" and they also said, " The word is another incarnation, a paper incarnation".

 

[brightfame52]

Its the efficasious reason why we serve God !

One of the accomplishments of the death/blood of Christ unto all for whom He died, is that it makes us to serve the Living God; Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This purge of conscience from dead religious works [false religion] compatible with what Peter wrote 1 Pet 1:18 unto serving the True and Living God, is an efficacious effect of the Blood of Christ !

That word serve is the greek word latreuō and means:

I.
to serve for hire

II.
to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
A.
in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship

B.
to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
i.
of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office


Its the same word used here Rev 7:15

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 22:3

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Its the word worship here Acts 24:14

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And note that this worship consisted in believing all things which are written in the law and prophets, which of course revealed Christ Lk 24:44

OT equivalent Deut 6:13

13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deut 10:12

And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Josh 24:15

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Phil 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship /serve God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

This what Paul refers to now, of worship/serve God in the Spirit, it is this which results solely from the Blood of Christ in Heb 9:14 !

And since we know that in order to serve God in such a way here, it takes a believing Faith Acts 24:14

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The word for believing is the greek word pisteuó:

I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

This type of believing in serving and worshiping of the True God is a blessing that is efficaciously wrought into all for whom Christ shed His Blood, this cannot be refuted without serious blasphemy ! 23