No one is saved by faith alone.

[Edward429451]

Would any of my postribber Brothers & Sisters care to clear up these 3 contradictions for me? I'm tryng to understand how the post trib view is founded, and it creates contradictions! For example?

Now, can we all agree and be on the same page about...the Great Tribulation "Is" the Wrath of God?
Seven bowls of Wrath poured out on the earth and so forth, that's great Trib, such as the world has never seen before. Right? The Wrath of God.

I hope that we're all on the same page up to this. Now, that said....

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.../KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

Those verses are contradicting the post trib rapture view. How am I supposed to reconcile these verses which number three, but add up to, one huge contradiction!

Those verses are not something that someone made up in the 1800's! These verses were in the Bible, even then!

So if it doesn't make sense, how can I believe in it? I sure hope one or more of my post trib Brothers & Sisters can clear this up for me?

 

[Edward429451]

1 Thess 1:10, "delivered us" from the wrath to come. As in, past tense. Am I right?

1 Thess 5:9, we are not "appointed" to wrath. So why would we go through the tribulation? That's not our Appointment! So if we wont go through God's Wrath of tribulation, that has to mean that He takes us off of the world before the tribulation begins. Because, the tribulation comes upon All the world.
Conclusion? Pre trib is real!

"All" the world (Revelation 3:10). To be sure, I looked up "All" in the Greek and in Greek, All means "All". (Lol)

 

[Edward429451]

This might be the coolest rapture thread that I've ever participated in. No one is screaming or fighting, no one is upset (pretty sure), and we're actually talking pre trib vs post trib, like adults! Wow. I marvel at that!

 

[Frankj]

Would any of my postribber Brothers & Sisters care to clear up these 3 contradictions for me? I'm tryng to understand how the post trib view is founded, and it creates contradictions! For example?

Now, can we all agree and be on the same page about...the Great Tribulation "Is" the Wrath of God?
Seven bowls of Wrath poured out on the earth and so forth, that's great Trib, such as the world has never seen before. Right? The Wrath of God.

I hope that we're all on the same page up to this. Now, that said....

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.../KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,.../KJV

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV

Those verses are contradicting the post trib rapture view. How am I supposed to reconcile these verses which number three, but add up to, one huge contradiction!

Those verses are not something that someone made up in the 1800's! These verses were in the Bible, even then!

So if it doesn't make sense, how can I believe in it? I sure hope one or more of my post trib Brothers & Sisters can clear this up for me?

Curious, how do you factor Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake." and Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." into your thinking on this.

These are the direct words Jesus spoke while on earth, and he said them to his Jewish followers at the time since the Church as we know it had not yet come into being (which sort of opens up another line of thought to consider as well).

 

[Edward429451]

Curious, how do you factor Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake." and Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." into your thinking on this.

These are the direct words Jesus spoke while on earth, and he said them to his Jewish followers at the time since the Church as we know it had not yet come into being (which sort of opens up another line of thought to consider as well).

That's a good question, and I do have an answer for you Brother.

Scripture says that in this world we will have tribulations, such as are common to man. Yes we are enduring tribulations now as we speak (part of our training?). But these tribulations are not the great Tribulation such as the earth has never seen before. (You familiar with those scriptures? I can post them if you need them.)

That Christians are still or already being put to death around the world is a clue to just how bad it will get in a tribulation such as the world has never seen before! Believe me Brother, you don't want to be here for the great tribulation.

The one(s) who endure to the end are those who remain in Christ (before the rapture) and those who dont take the Mark in the tribulation.

If you had to deal with the great tribulation and live during it, you can buy no food. You can buy no prescription medication, and your Bible ownership is a Capital Offense....
Not a pretty picture. Doesn't even compare to my piddling tribulations that I have.

And that's how I reconcile that! Scripturally.

 

[Edward429451]

Curious, how do you factor Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake." and Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." into your thinking on this.

These are the direct words Jesus spoke while on earth, and he said them to his Jewish followers at the time since the Church as we know it had not yet come into being (which sort of opens up another line of thought to consider as well).

Besides, this is verse 9 which is before verse 32 where he finished answering their 3 questions and changed the subject to the rapture. Re-read the whole chapter and put yourself in that moment when Jesus was speaking. Can you not follow the flow of conversation? In verse 9 He had started answering their 3 questions so He is talking Great Trib.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree...(V32 change of subject) when the tree sprouts leaves you can know that (we're in the end times). That happened to Israel in 1948. It became a nation again and sprouted leaves.

 

[Frankj]

Besides, this is verse 9 which is before verse 32 where he finished answering their 3 questions and changed the subject to the rapture. Re-read the whole chapter and put yourself in that moment when Jesus was speaking. Can you not follow the flow of conversation? In verse 9 He had started answering their 3 questions so He is talking Great Trib.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree...(V32 change of subject) when the tree sprouts leaves you can know that (we're in the end times). That happened to Israel in 1948. It became a nation again and sprouted leaves.

The "end times" arguments tend to, if they include Revelation or influence from it, the most divisive aspect of Christianity, and Revelation itself is the most divisive book in the Bible (IIRC it took something like 600 years for it to be finally be accepted) and is one of the things that keep the Church from doing what we were told it could do today. I always like to consider that the flow of the conversation when Matthew 24 was that of a Jewish Rabbi to other Jews, as gentiles -the majority of the Church- we try to understand it in relation to our non Jewish cultural backgrounds and much of the original meaning surely is lost in doing this.

FWIW, I was born somewhat before Israel became a nation again and remember in my youth the older folks preaching that this was a sign that the final fulfillment of the prophecies would be in their lifetimes.

They grew old and died without seeing it, as did most of their children and even some of their grandchildren.

As of late, I'm beginning to understand that that fig tree sprouting leaves may not refer to the simple reestablishment of Israel as an independent nation, the end of the diaspora, with its own lands but may be meaning when that reborn nation returns to God and the Temple is built and the sacrifices reinstated again, with all of its people becoming dutifully religious again and the current secular governance gone.

That means, in short, that the sprouting of the leaves is the repentance of the Jews and a return to God as their ruler.

And of course. I don't claim this is what will happen since everyone for the last several thousand years that has done so has been wrong. At my age I also doubt that I will be among those who are here to see the second coming happen.

What think you about this?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Start from the beginning, the disciples come and ask 3 questions.
Jesus answers all 3 questions and then beginning in verse 32, He adds more to it and keeps on talking, and yes, with a change of subject. Now learn a parable of the Fig tree...meaning, ok I answered your questions so let's talk about this now...and starts talking rapture and Israel and so forth. It's very clear that Jesus changed the subject!

It may be clear to you, @Edward429451, because you have a certain mental framework which you fit everything into, but I don't see that it's that way. After all, we'll all find out when it happens.

 

[Edward429451]

The "end times" arguments tend to, if they include Revelation or influence from it, the most divisive aspect of Christianity, and Revelation itself is the most divisive book in the Bible (IIRC it took something like 600 years for it to be finally be accepted) and is one of the things that keep the Church from doing what we were told it could do today. I always like to consider that the flow of the conversation when Matthew 24 was that of a Jewish Rabbi to other Jews, as gentiles -the majority of the Church- we try to understand it in relation to our non Jewish cultural backgrounds and much of the original meaning surely is lost in doing this.

FWIW, I was born somewhat before Israel became a nation again and remember in my youth the older folks preaching that this was a sign that the final fulfillment of the prophecies would be in their lifetimes.

They grew old and died without seeing it, as did most of their children and even some of their grandchildren.

As of late, I'm beginning to understand that that fig tree sprouting leaves may not refer to the simple reestablishment of Israel as an independent nation, the end of the diaspora, with its own lands but may be meaning when that reborn nation returns to God and the Temple is built and the sacrifices reinstated again, with all of its people becoming dutifully religious again and the current secular governance gone.

That means, in short, that the sprouting of the leaves is the repentance of the Jews and a return to God as their ruler.

And of course. I don't claim this is what will happen since everyone for the last several thousand years that has done so has been wrong. At my age I also doubt that I will be among those who are here to see the second coming happen.

What think you about this?

I think that...when Israel accepts her Messiah as messiah and crys out to Him to return...that is not leaves I think, but more like, fruit. That's the primary purpose of the great trib, to bring Israel into a saving knowledge that they need a savior and Jesus is/was that Savior.

He helps them constantly with military miracles in Israel a lot lately! There's all sorts of testimonies of God showing up in some way to save His people or give them victory. Once they come back to the Lord as a nation, corporately, then He will return.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

What use is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:14 LSB

It's of no use whatsoever. If someone gives me a chocolate cake with the caveat that I must share it with my friends, but I eat the whole thing, I've mistreated the gift I've been given. The cake does me no good

 

[Charlie24]

What use is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:14 LSB

Paul made it clear that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

He's saying our salvation is by faith alone.

James is not speaking of our initial salvation as is Paul, but what proves our salvation.

Paul and James are not at odds in our faith for salvation, Paul is speaking of faith at the moment of salvation without works, whereas James is speaking of the works after initial salvation that proves our justification.

According to James, and I agree, If a man has no works that follows his faith, most likely he's not saved.

Christ said, you shall know them by their fruits, and that is what James is referring to, proof of justification.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Paul made it clear that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

He's saying our salvation is by faith alone.

I do not think that he is. He is asserting that works of the law absent genuine faith in Jesus Christ are of no value whatever in salvation. That is quite different from asserting that faith alone can save anybody. Faith when it has nothing else with it, no works, nor working love, no fidelity towards God and neighbour, such lonely faith is useless.

Paul and James are not at odds in our faith for salvation, Paul is speaking of faith at the moment of salvation without works, whereas James is speaking of the works after initial salvation that proves our justification.

According to James, and I agree, If a man has no works that follows his faith, most likely he's not saved.

James said in the verse I quoted that if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? and the implied answer to his question is No!.

A few verses later on saint James writes You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Works done out of living faith do justify. Faith without works is worthless.

 

[Edward429451]

I do not think that he is. He is asserting that works of the law absent genuine faith in Jesus Christ are of no value whatever in salvation. That is quite different from asserting that faith alone can save anybody. Faith when it has nothing else with it, no works, nor working love, no fidelity towards God and neighbour, such lonely faith is useless.

James said in the verse I quoted that if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? and the implied answer to his question is No!.

A few verses later on saint James writes You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Works done out of living faith do justify. Faith without works is worthless.

This sounds correct to me. I think the situation can be likened to getting hired for a job. So one has the interview and asks forgiveness which is granted and the man becomes born again. He got the job. It is a done deal. So work is scheduled for the man, you start tomorrow.

But if the man takes his joy and his faith home with him, and doesn't go to work tomorrow? Will he get to keep the job? Is he a hearer of the word and not a doer of the word?

God said that He will not be mocked. So if a man does not show up for work, Jesus said He will spew them out of His mouth. and it would be the same thing if he got a job. Ok your hired, now show up and justify to us that we made a good decision in hiring you!

So it is a natural thing for us to...pick up our cross daily and go do something in faith that will benefit the kingdom of God. There's a big lesson in the parable of the Talents. We dont want to be unprofitable servants! So yes you are expected to do works alongside your faith because it shows to man and God, that, you are a changed man, and have been, born again.

So if a person professes their faith, they will tell you, Jesus will come one day and transform me into being perfect...! And they resist doing works and try to say, I dont have to do any works. WHat kind of an attitude is that for a man who just got a great job? Oh I'm not doing that work, and I'll still be paid! Do you think that guy might get fired? If you do no works or good deeds for people then, you are clearly not drawing any closer to God, in fact you'd be drawing away from Him. You can't go and continue with your favorite sins and do no works, and claim my faith will save me. God will not be mocked. Good works is a byproduct of a relationship with the Lord. It comes naturally along with it. If that isn't there, then the relationship isnt there.

 

[Edward429451]

I got me a good new job one time at a huge Union company. I applied to work in the Service department, because that's what I do. They hired me and put me on a furnace installation crew. A lennox dealer! Back when the G23' were just coming out and we were putting in a lot of them...and they had major problems. Bad controls from the factory. Mis-wired from the factory! and all sorts of stuff. Now I was an "installer: so I wasnt allowed to fix a furnace. I was expected to install the unit and then tell the customer that the service department will be by some tome to make it work!

Now is that funny, or what! I hated that and I could fix them so I disobeyed the prime directive and fixed a few of these furnaces and just turned in the invoice. They got mad at me and called me on the carpet. You are an installer. You do not fix them. But sir, it works and no one had to go back! DONT DO IT AGAIN! Ok boss.

The I found a cracked heat exchanger we were there to install a Humidifier. But while I was working the customer started talking to me about getting her furnace inspected. And I do that and had the tools so I did do it and it was cracked and needed replaced. So I knew how to cut deals with customers so I cut them a deal and got 1/2 down towards it!
I dont know how much they sell a furnace for so I winged it. You see normally the protocol is, if a cracked heat exchanger is found, then measure it up for replacement and make a material list, then tell the customer that the Sales department will come out to cut them a deal.

And I just put the invoice on the main Salesman's desk with the check for 1/2 down for the replacement, and pretty soon, I was called on the carpet for doing the salesman job. So I'm standing there being reamed by a bunch of higher ups, when the main Salesman stood up and said waitaminute. This young man bid this job for $500 more than I would have bid it for, and he collected 1/2 down?! How can he be in trouble for that?! And they agreed with him! Suddenly I wasnt in trouble, but promoted to the service department with a raise, and permission to sell units and cut deals with customers., lol!

Why was I promoted? I justified myself as capable. It took the work to show I am capable, I am serious, I am. professional...

Same thing with the Lord.
Show me your faith by your faith and I will you my faith by my works! Right?

 

[Edward429451]

I never lied to get a job. It's blatantly stupid. I can do this I can do that, no sweat boss! Then he gets handed a jobsite to go work at and he has no clue what he is doing! They dont last long. Plus they have the embarrassment of looking like a liar exposed. They hired that guy oce and sent him to work with me, and I was an admitted apprentice! I wasnt no lead man and they sent us on a roof top A/C unit call and we go up and take the cover off...and I can tell by the look on his face, he dont know where to begin. He asked me what I think is wrong!

I said, hey your here to teach me, remember? He lasted a whole 3 days.

So you might say, he was hearer of the work but not a doer of the work.

 

[Charlie24]

I do not think that he is. He is asserting that works of the law absent genuine faith in Jesus Christ are of no value whatever in salvation. That is quite different from asserting that faith alone can save anybody. Faith when it has nothing else with it, no works, nor working love, no fidelity towards God and neighbour, such lonely faith is useless.

James said in the verse I quoted that if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? and the implied answer to his question is No!.

A few verses later on saint James writes You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Works done out of living faith do justify. Faith without works is worthless.

It seems if you are correct Eph. 2:8-9 should be removed from Scripture. He said "not of works."

I don't think it can be said any clearer than that. No works involved in salvation!

Does James see salvation differently than Paul? No, they are looking at salvation from different angles.

 

[Marston]

FWIW my understanding is that, if we are indeed faithful followers of Jesus, we will happily help those in need when we encounter them. Remember that Jesus said that whatever is done for the "least of these" is also done to him. So, yes, I believe that we should and must help those in need when we encounter them.

 

[Marston]

I don't think it can be said any clearer than that. No works involved in salvation!

John 6:29

English Standard Version

​

29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[Edward429451]

I don't think it can be said any clearer than that. No works involved in salvation!

I agree with this. No works to receive salvation.

But, again, likening it to getting a job. Lucifer had a job one time, a nice one from what I hear. But he came to work one day and said, I want a bigger Office on a higher level than yours, God...

What happened then? He got fired from his job and booted out.
Can that happen to us? Now OSAS is a huge argument for Christians and some sites ban that topic for that reason! But the truth remains, let's look at this logically.

There sure does seem to be (too many?) scriptures in the Bible that speak about, Blot my enemies names from the boo of Life, Lord (Psalms) and in another place it says something along the lines of, Lord, do not blot out my name from the book of Life...So...where does that leave us? Do people really get their names blotted out from the book of Life? Can God fire people from the Kingdom of God?
Of course He can, He is GOD.

Did Lucifer have to get fired? No, I think not. He could have came to work that day and did His job and kept his mouth shut! You dont go to work and say I want a bigger better office than the Boss!

So doing the work that you agreed to by making Jesus your "Lord" is one way of staying out of trouble. So your work doesnt have anything to do with the fact that you were hired (Salvation) but if you do your workwithout complaint....everything gets better. You "Justify" that, they hired the right man.

You can't get hired (Salvation) and then want to stay hired for the benefits but not want to do the work! How long will that last? So you wasn't even serious! So...maybe, you were on a probationary hire period and didnt even realize it? Maybe you felt the Holy Spirit in Church when you went to the altar, but do you know for a fact that God has already written down your name in the book of Life? Maybe He does that later and not just when they say the sinners prayer? Like when you Baptized in the Holy Spirit maybe?

People who argue that, we dont have to do any works to be saved. Are actually admitting that, they have not made Jesus their "Lord". They say, I am my God, I will make the decisions in my life and I say I believe I wont do any works...!!!

How in the world do you not trust your Savior? He is telling you to go out and be about your Fathers work, right? So why do you not trust Him and obey what He says?

 

[Charlie24]

I agree with this. No works to receive salvation.

But, again, likening it to getting a job. Lucifer had a job one time, a nice one from what I hear. But he came to work one day and said, I want a bigger Office on a higher level than yours, God...

What happened then? He got fired from his job and booted out.
Can that happen to us? Now OSAS is a huge argument for Christians and some sites ban that topic for that reason! But the truth remains, let's look at this logically.

There sure does seem to be (too many?) scriptures in the Bible that speak about, Blot my enemies names from the boo of Life, Lord (Psalms) and in another place it says something along the lines of, Lord, do not blot out my name from the book of Life...So...where does that leave us? Do people really get their names blotted out from the book of Life? Can God fire people from the Kingdom of God?
Of course He can, He is GOD.

Did Lucifer have to get fired? No, I think not. He could have came to work that day and did His job and kept his mouth shut! You dont go to work and say I want a bigger better office than the Boss!

So doing the work that you agreed to by making Jesus your "Lord" is one way of staying out of trouble. So your work doesnt have anything to do with the fact that you were hired (Salvation) but if you do your workwithout complaint....everything gets better. You "Justify" that, they hired the right man.

You can't get hired (Salvation) and then want to stay hired for the benefits but not want to do the work! How long will that last? So you wasn't even serious! So...maybe, you were on a probationary hire period and didnt even realize it? Maybe you felt the Holy Spirit in Church when you went to the altar, but do you know for a fact that God has already written down your name in the book of Life? Maybe He does that later and not just when they say the sinners prayer? Like when you Baptized in the Holy Spirit maybe?

People who argue that, we dont have to do any works to be saved. Are actually admitting that, they have not made Jesus their "Lord". They say, I am my God, I will make the decisions in my life and I say I believe I wont do any works...!!!

How in the world do you not trust your Savior? He is telling you to go out and be about your Fathers work, right? So why do you not trust Him and obey what He says?

Paul has already told us in several of his epistles that we cannot trust in works for salvation. He even tells us that works makes Grace void, in other words believing in works to be saved cancels out Grace.

In 1 Cor. 3:11-15, Paul tells us that our works (the works that follow our faith for salvation) will be tried by the fire, of what sort they are.

If they are improper works, deemed by the Lord, those works will be burned up, they will not pass the test and will not exist.

But then Paul says in vs 15,

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

The loss of the works that follow our faith will not stop a person from being saved in the end, provided that Faith is placed in the finished work of Christ.

From this we know that James is not speaking of works for salvation, but rather works proving our salvation.