No one is saved by faith alone.

[BruceLeiter]

The way I figure it, faith without works is dead, so what does that mean? Well one can liken it to joining the military. Once we get born again, are we not soldiers in the Kingdom of God?

So if someone joins the military and signs up, he then goes through a training period, and a time of testing. So if the man excels at his MOS then he will get promoted. and his name will start to be well known. Patton was a buck private at one time and excelled so much that he began to be given more responsibility and more missions to do and one day after he did good at them, he wakes up and he is a General in the military! There's a natural progression of rank and responsibility.

But if Patton had signed up for the military the very first time, and then he changed his mind and didn't even show up to get on the bus to go to training. He would have been, as they say, AWOL. The military would have realized that, he didnt want to be there, so he didn't show up. And if you dont want to be there, then they dont want you there. They might have let him go without charges.

But that's not what happened. Patton showed up and said yes sir and obeyed orders and went on to excel at the craft so got promoted to General. WHen a man enters the service, he builds trust that his commander is on his side, so he learns to trust them. And the Military also had to learn that they could trust this young Private named Patton that H can handle the responsibility.

It's the same thing with faith in God. We each, us and Jesus has to build a resume of trust between each other. Jesus will not put on you more than you can bear. So to trust the Lord means to obey the Lord and step out in faith in your actions in some way, and leave it to God to handle the situation. We call this, walking in faith, or being led by the spirit.

If a man gets born again and takes no actions in the flesh, how do you know if he is even recognized as an obedient servant? If they go home after being baptized and say, I'm saved...but they have no works of stepping out in faith, then they are AWOL arent they? So if you can show me your faith without works, then I'll show you my faith through my works! Get it?

So the guys who go AWOL might or might not get saved, but the man that shows up in faith and backs it up with his actions will have a higher ranking and mansion in heaven than the guy who went AWOL and sat on his couch.

Salvation is free, but after that, it isnt over, it begins. First you sign up and accept the agreement, then you show up and apply yourselfperhaps work your way up to a huge mansion and you're a 5 star General!

So yeah, we do have to have works. Only an idiot would go AWOL.

You're assuming that the born-again man can take "no actions in the flesh." The Holy Spirit enters such a person and begins to influence him to follow Jesus. He will grow to be more and more obedient, all by God's great grace too. They never go completely AWOL without God's influence returning them to the narrow path. God never lets them go--ever!

 

[Edward429451]

You're assuming that the born-again man can take "no actions in the flesh." The Holy Spirit enters such a person and begins to influence him to follow Jesus. He will grow to be more and more obedient, all by God's great grace too. They never go completely AWOL without God's influence returning them to the narrow path. God never lets them go--ever!

No, quite the opposite. I'm saying a man must take actions in the flesh in faith and do good work for the Lord if they sont want to be poor in heaven.

I'm pretty sure that scripture talks about two classes of people in heaven. Paul talks about putting on Immortality and Incorruptibility and this happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the rapture. So there will be those types in heaven (and on earth reigning with Jesus during the Millennium)

Then later in scripture where it is describing the Tree of Life in Heaven and it says that the Leaves from the tree are used for the Healing of the Nations. (!!!) Ok so here is the 2nd class of heavenly citizens, and according to scripture, they live outside the City of New Jerusalem! I think they can enter the city but they live outside. So some of us will be immortals and not need healing or to eat from the tree of life, and the "nations" will need healing (Sounds like a lot of people!)

And if anyone has a difficulty believing in ranks in heaven, all they have to do is to consider that, some shall be called the least in heaven. I don't know who that will be, but will the least in Heaven get as big a Mansion as say, Moses? Or hw about David? No way, so there is rank. What determines your rank in heaven? The size of your mansion? Relationship. Good deeds for the poor. Helping the hungry. The work of the Lord and His Business and winning souls for Him! Look Lord, I didnt come alone!

Understand?

 

[BruceLeiter]

No, quite the opposite. I'm saying a man must take actions in the flesh in faith and do good work for the Lord if they sont want to be poor in heaven.

I'm pretty sure that scripture talks about two classes of people in heaven. Paul talks about putting on Immortality and Incorruptibility and this happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the rapture. So there will be those types in heaven (and on earth reigning with Jesus during the Millennium)

Then later in scripture where it is describing the Tree of Life in Heaven and it says that the Leaves from the tree are used for the Healing of the Nations. (!!!) Ok so here is the 2nd class of heavenly citizens, and according to scripture, they live outside the City of New Jerusalem! I think they can enter the city but they live outside. So some of us will be immortals and not need healing or to eat from the tree of life, and the "nations" will need healing (Sounds like a lot of people!)

And if anyone has a difficulty believing in ranks in heaven, all they have to do is to consider that, some shall be called the least in heaven. I don't know who that will be, but will the least in Heaven get as big a Mansion as say, Moses? Or hw about David? No way, so there is rank. What determines your rank in heaven? The size of your mansion? Relationship. Good deeds for the poor. Helping the hungry. The work of the Lord and His Business and winning souls for Him! Look Lord, I didnt come alone!

Understand?

@Edward429451, where do you find us being changed "in the twinkling of an eye" to be raptured? And where do you find the nations being healed by the leaves of the tree, as an entirely different class of people? And where do you see the healing of the nations in heaven? How is it that we don't need healing too? What are the Bible verses that back up what you say?

 

[Edward429451]

@Edward429451, where do you find us being changed "in the twinkling of an eye" to be raptured? And where do you find the nations being healed by the leaves of the tree, as an entirely different class of people? And where do you see the healing of the nations in heaven? How is it that we don't need healing too? What are the Bible verses that back up what you say?

It's in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..../KJV

You see, the "twinkling of an eye" is faster than the blink of an eye. A lot faster. A twinkling of an eye measures how long it takes light to pass through your retina. A blink of an eye takes about 100 to 400 milli seconds. A twinkling of any was closer to 1/6, 000,000,000th ms

The other about the leaves came from

Revelation 22:1-3

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:///KJV

That they are different classes of people like I said loosely, is because some people will have to continue to eat from the tree of Life, while others are Immortal and so dont need to eat. They prolly can, just dont need to. But all those people who led unbelieving lives and recanted on their death bed and have zero works for the Lord are naked with nothing. (scripture says our garments is the righteousness of the saints. So Jesus saves their life but he doesnt get a Penthouse next door to Moses! Paul wont live in his neighborhood. because on earth the one man had what amounts to a thimbleful of faith in God and others like Paul in comparison had like 55 gal drums! More spiritual capacity and even so, both vessels will be overflowing and both people delighted in the Lord and were happy. So the rank and position in heaven. No wonder it says, Build up your treasures in heaven! And we do that by obeying the Lord. Caring for the poor and needy. If you give a water to a homeless man, Jesus says it's like giving it to Him!

Doesn't scripture say somewhere about a 1500 mile tall tower in New Jerusalem? Over half as big as the United States is that building. God Tower and many people (will) live there. So some people will live in the tower and others will live outside the city and it's walls.

We have a lot to look forward too!

 

[Lamb]

It's in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..../KJV

You see, the "twinkling of an eye" is faster than the blink of an eye. A lot faster. A twinkling of an eye measures how long it takes light to pass through your retina. A blink of an eye takes about 100 to 400 milli seconds. A twinkling of any was closer to 1/6, 000,000,000th ms

The other about the leaves came from

Revelation 22:1-3

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:///KJV

That they are different classes of people like I said loosely, is because some people will have to continue to eat from the tree of Life, while others are Immortal and so dont need to eat. They prolly can, just dont need to. But all those people who led unbelieving lives and recanted on their death bed and have zero works for the Lord are naked with nothing. (scripture says our garments is the righteousness of the saints. So Jesus saves their life but he doesnt get a Penthouse next door to Moses! Paul wont live in his neighborhood. because on earth the one man had what amounts to a thimbleful of faith in God and others like Paul in comparison had like 55 gal drums! More spiritual capacity and even so, both vessels will be overflowing and both people delighted in the Lord and were happy. So the rank and position in heaven. No wonder it says, Build up your treasures in heaven! And we do that by obeying the Lord. Caring for the poor and needy. If you give a water to a homeless man, Jesus says it's like giving it to Him!

Doesn't scripture say somewhere about a 1500 mile tall tower in New Jerusalem? Over half as big as the United States is that building. God Tower and many people (will) live there. So some people will live in the tower and others will live outside the city and it's walls.

We have a lot to look forward too!

There is indeed a "rapture" where EVERYONE is raised. But that's not even close to the Left Behind type of rapture because this is the last judgment.

 

[Edward429451]

There is indeed a "rapture" where EVERYONE is raised. But that's not even close to the Left Behind type of rapture because this is the last judgment.

So you dont believe this passage is true?

Matthew 24:40-44
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV

If there is not a pre trib rapture, then when does this happen, where one is taken and one left behind?

 

[Lamb]

So you dont believe this passage is true?

Matthew 24:40-44
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh..../KJV

If there is not a pre trib rapture, then when does this happen, where one is taken and one left behind?

Well, let's not forget what was said in the verses immediately before....it will give you a clearer picture:

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In the days of Noah, the ones left behind were the believers. Not that this proves that anyone is left behind on the last day when Jesus returns because it is judgment day and believers get to be with the Lord for all eternity.

 

[BruceLeiter]

It's in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..../KJV

You see, the "twinkling of an eye" is faster than the blink of an eye. A lot faster. A twinkling of an eye measures how long it takes light to pass through your retina. A blink of an eye takes about 100 to 400 milli seconds. A twinkling of any was closer to 1/6, 000,000,000th ms

The other about the leaves came from

Revelation 22:1-3

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:///KJV

That they are different classes of people like I said loosely, is because some people will have to continue to eat from the tree of Life, while others are Immortal and so dont need to eat. They prolly can, just dont need to. But all those people who led unbelieving lives and recanted on their death bed and have zero works for the Lord are naked with nothing. (scripture says our garments is the righteousness of the saints. So Jesus saves their life but he doesnt get a Penthouse next door to Moses! Paul wont live in his neighborhood. because on earth the one man had what amounts to a thimbleful of faith in God and others like Paul in comparison had like 55 gal drums! More spiritual capacity and even so, both vessels will be overflowing and both people delighted in the Lord and were happy. So the rank and position in heaven. No wonder it says, Build up your treasures in heaven! And we do that by obeying the Lord. Caring for the poor and needy. If you give a water to a homeless man, Jesus says it's like giving it to Him!

Doesn't scripture say somewhere about a 1500 mile tall tower in New Jerusalem? Over half as big as the United States is that building. God Tower and many people (will) live there. So some people will live in the tower and others will live outside the city and it's walls.

We have a lot to look forward too!

There is no place in 1 Corinthians 15 where the rapture is described; you are reading the rapture into that chapter. It's not there; it's about our future bodily resurrection, not the rapture.

 

[Edward429451]

Well, let's not forget what was said in the verses immediately before....it will give you a clearer picture:

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In the days of Noah, the ones left behind were the believers. Not that this proves that anyone is left behind on the last day when Jesus returns because it is judgment day and believers get to be with the Lord for all eternity.

It's easy to get messed up in the details, but if you read Matthew 24 it starts out that the Disciples come and ask Jesus 3 questions. Jesus answers all 3 questions and then adds some stuff to it by changing the subject in verse 32 and from v32 on Jesus is talking about the rapture visit. Read the whole chapter and see how it flows. He even said so, let's talk about this now...so he isnt talking about the last day anymore.

 

[Edward429451]

There is no place in 1 Corinthians 15 where the rapture is described; you are reading the rapture into that chapter. It's not there; it's about our future bodily resurrection, not the rapture.

It is talking about the rapture when meet Jesus before the tribulation.

There's scriptural clues all throughout that point to, Two events. In one, He comes for His Bride, and we meet Him in the air. At the 2nd Coming, He comes with His Bride and comes to the earth. I can list more differences if you'd like.

In the Rapture...//...At the 2nd Coming
The earth is not Judged...//...The earth is Judged.
only the Saints see Him...//,,,Every eye will see Him.
Before the Day of Wrath..//...Concludes the Day of Wrath!
Imminent ...//...Not Imminent.
Saints go to Heaven..///...Saints return to the earth with Jesus

Feel free to comment on any of it. It's all scripture. It cant be debunked.

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.../KJV

And also, back in the book of Daniel he makes a significant point about the end times.

Daniel 12:3-5
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river..../kjv

So this info was a mystery until sort of recently. Someone said some guy named Darby made it up in the 1800's, something like that. But it says in Daniel that knowledge is going to be increased.

Look around you,,,has knowledge been increased? It sure has! So is there any reason that the knowledge of God would not be increased at the same time that the world increased in knowledge? So Darby didnt make it up, he just discovered it, had it revealed to him?

As an aside, every time that I have held a wrong doctrine and later searched out the truth (or was given it!) and so changed my mind on what believed, I noticed that many times it was because I had not read the Word, literally enough.

Lots of people will tell me I'm wrong but wont tell me why or how. And so far, these turn out to almost always be Amillenials who read the bible allegorically. The Bible does use allegory, but not near as much as you think it does.

 

[Lamb]

It's easy to get messed up in the details, but if you read Matthew 24 it starts out that the Disciples come and ask Jesus 3 questions. Jesus answers all 3 questions and then adds some stuff to it by changing the subject in verse 32 and from v32 on Jesus is talking about the rapture visit. Read the whole chapter and see how it flows. He even said so, let's talk about this now...so he isnt talking about the last day anymore.

Yes, it's easy to get messed up in the details, but Jesus isn't talking about a left behind type of thing that is a new concept developed in modern times.

 

[Edward429451]

Yes, it's easy to get messed up in the details, but Jesus isn't talking about a left behind type of thing that is a new concept developed in modern times.

But the problem with is it creates a lot of contradictions in scripture. But before those,

Jesus isnt talking about a left behind situation in Matthew 24?
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left..../KJV

So you need to explain that one, Sister. What is he talking about then?

 

[Lamb]

But the problem with is it creates a lot of contradictions in scripture. But before those,

Jesus isnt talking about a left behind situation in Matthew 24?
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left..../KJV

So you need to explain that one, Sister. What is he talking about then?

There aren't contradictions at all. The verses you are talking about, along with the 1 Corinthians verses, you can't just cherry pick and not read the rest of the context.

It's about Jesus return. He's only going to come again and then there will be judgment day. He even states that we have to hold firm onto faith.

That's also in the Matthew text... Matthew 24:44
So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Look at this in the 1 Corinthians 15 text after the verses you quoted:
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

That's about Jesus and His return, but also about Judgment Day so we need to remain faithful in Him. Those who have faith will have eternal life!!

 

[Edward429451]

There aren't contradictions at all. The verses you are talking about, along with the 1 Corinthians verses, you can't just cherry pick and not read the rest of the context.

It's about Jesus return. He's only going to come again and then there will be judgment day. He even states that we have to hold firm onto faith.

That's also in the Matthew text... Matthew 24:44
So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Look at this in the 1 Corinthians 15 text after the verses you quoted:
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

That's about Jesus and His return, but also about Judgment Day so we need to remain faithful in Him. Those who have faith will have eternal life!!

You didnt tell me what Jesus meant about one will be left and the other taken. When does that happen? Or what did Jesus really mean?

 

[BruceLeiter]

It's easy to get messed up in the details, but if you read Matthew 24 it starts out that the Disciples come and ask Jesus 3 questions. Jesus answers all 3 questions and then adds some stuff to it by changing the subject in verse 32 and from v32 on Jesus is talking about the rapture visit. Read the whole chapter and see how it flows. He even said so, let's talk about this now...so he isnt talking about the last day anymore.

I have read all of it, and I think that you are reading into verses 32 and following meaning that isn't there. All of the chapter combines Jesus' prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem and his one second coming.

 

[Frankj]

@Edward429451 and @BruceLeiter ,

Consider all possible meanings that the verse about one being taken and one being left could have, use Biblically sound reasoning and throw out the ones that really don't make any sense.

Some examples: Since 1 out of 2 is 1/2 of the people involved, it means that half the people will be saved and half lost. Since less than a third of the world.s people are Christian, or call themselves that, this means many non Christians will be saved without believing in Christ, or even knowing of it.

Another example, since it mentions two workers in agricultural endeavors, only those in agricultural work will be saved.

Another example would be that those saved will be indistinguishable from those not until the final decision is made and the calling takes place.

And still another is that when the taking happens it will be without warning and catch all by surprise

Look at your own current arguments as well.

And so on and so on.

So each of you should argue to the fullest both for and against each of the possible meanings based on Biblical reference so that the one that can't be argued both ways will emerge and lead to the true meaning of the scripture involved.

Truth is sometimes best found by eliminating everything else and looking at what is left over instead of just arguing about it. When an argument can only be made in favor of something and no argument can be made against it, you will have at least a look into the true nature of it.

 

[Edward429451]

@Edward429451 and @BruceLeiter ,

Consider all possible meanings that the verse about one being taken and one being left could have, use Biblically sound reasoning and throw out the ones that really don't make any sense.

Some examples: Since 1 out of 2 is 1/2 of the people involved, it means that half the people will be saved and half lost. Since less than a third of the world.s people are Christian, or call themselves that, this means many non Christians will be saved without believing in Christ, or even knowing of it.

Another example, since it mentions two workers in agricultural endeavors, only those in agricultural work will be saved.

Another example would be that those saved will be indistinguishable from those not until the final decision is made and the calling takes place.

And still another is that when the taking happens it will be without warning and catch all by surprise

Look at your own current arguments as well.

And so on and so on.

So each of you should argue to the fullest both for and against each of the possible meanings based on Biblical reference so that the one that can't be argued both ways will emerge and lead to the true meaning of the scripture involved.

Truth is sometimes best found by eliminating everything else and looking at what is left over instead of just arguing about it. When an argument can only be made in favor of something and no argument can be made against it, you will have at least a look into the true nature of it.

That's a great idea right there and also what I have been nudging them to do. Oh they post a lot of good scriptures, but not really ones that are directly relevant to what we're talking about!

So I wish they they would respond like that and stick to the discussion. All my ducks are in a row and I have the scriptures and want to continue this conversation...but they havent debunked anything I've said, only voice their beliefs. So follow his lead guys and lets talk this out some!

 

[Edward429451]

I have read all of it, and I think that you are reading into verses 32 and following meaning that isn't there. All of the chapter combines Jesus' prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem and his one second coming.

Start from the beginning, the disciples come and ask 3 questions.
Jesus answers all 3 questions and then beginning in verse 32, He adds more to it and keeps on talking, and yes, with a change of subject. Now learn a parable of the Fig tree...meaning, ok I answered your questions so let's talk about this now...and starts talking rapture and Israel and so forth. It's very clear that Jesus changed the subject!

 

[Lamb]

You didnt tell me what Jesus meant about one will be left and the other taken. When does that happen? Or what did Jesus really mean?

I explained that when I brought up the Noah verse. That verse immediately before the verses you quoted so take another look at that. And the point about those verses points to Jesus and His return and the last judgment.

 

[Edward429451]

I explained that when I brought up the Noah verse. That verse immediately before the verses you quoted so take another look at that. And the point about those verses points to Jesus and His return and the last judgment.

I'm not following your logic or understanding what you mean.
How does it point to Jesus and the 2nd coming and not about one will be taken and one left behind?